Wednesday, May 7, 2008

"Married White but Dislikes Whites"

The title of this post was the heading for a thread on Black Voices discussing the following article:

Cobb officials critical of commissioner's comments: Annette Kesting was to speak at church about black history

By JEREMY REDMON
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Published on: 04/07/08

Cobb County commissioners voiced support of county employees Monday in reaction to an inflammatory speech fellow Commissioner Annette Kesting gave at a Marietta church recently.

"It is unfortunate that commissioner Kesting would comment on race and religion, which has no bearing on how our employees perform their duties and serve the public," Commissioner Helen Goreham said Monday morning.


Commissioner Tim Lee said of Kesting's remarks: "It is safe to say, I don't share her point of view on the employees or the work environment."

An official with the Anti-Defamation League called Kesting's comments "unfortunate."

"Some of her remarks sounded offensive to me," said Bill Nigut, southeast director of the Anti-Defamation League, "but I wish we would just get past just reacting and find a way to deal with discussing race in an environment free from accusation."


Pleasant Grove Missionary Baptist Church in Marietta had invited Kesting, the county's first black commissioner, to speak as part of the church's 21st Annual Black History Celebration.

But in a rambling half-hour speech, Kesting decided to touch on other topics as well, including what it is like to work in the county government headquarters.


In an interview last week, she stood by her comments, but later softened her position.

"I love my enemies. I pray every day with my enemies because I have to go up on the third floor and work with white women," she said in her Feb. 17 speech, which was captured on a video for sale at the 1,200-member church.

Kesting, the lone Democrat on the county board, said she had been "lied on" and "talked about" as commissioner and added that she senses "evilness" surrounding her when she goes into the office.

"You would be amazed seeing the people I work with at the county. They are not Christian people," Kesting said.

Kesting told the audience that "you can't blame everything on the white man" and mentioned that she married one. She continued: "A lot of white folks are mad because I married a white man because I am a black woman," she said. "Why? They would marry a black man if he got money. OK?"

Last week, Kesting said she does not count white women among her enemies, despite what she told the church. She also said she represents people from other religions in her racially diverse south Cobb district and gets along with them.

Kesting said she used her speech to respond to questions she said she got from the public about what it is like to serve as the first African-American commissioner in the county. She said her talk was in keeping with the theme she was invited to address.

"My remarks at Pleasant Grove Missionary Baptist Church were intended to motivate and inspire women in the church to keep moving towards a better life for themselves and their families," she said in a statement she issued through a county spokesman Friday. "I am really sorry that my remarks offended some members of the church and hope that we as a community can continue to work together."

James Jackson Jr., chairman of the church's deacon ministry, said Kesting may have dwelled on herself too long in her speech, but he wouldn't mind having her back to speak . . .

Cobb Commission Chairman Sam Olens, who is Jewish, said he was not offended by Kesting's comments about non-Christians because he sensed she was talking about "loving God" as opposed to criticizing other religions. But he said he was "embarrassed" about how the church might view the county after Kesting's speech.

"The county embraces the diversity of our residents and views that diversity as a strength," Olens said. "It is unfortunate when personal comments detract from our service to the community."

Needless to say, the spin that was placed on Commissioner Kesting's rather odd (as described) speech at Black Voices was that she "hates white people but married a white person--why"?

This reaction reminded me of how one of my cousins responded when I told him I was dating a white man -- "You?! Soul sister #1?" He's always teased me about being so "militant," so me dating a white man to him was just grist for the mill.

The serious issue, of course, is whether it is possible for a black person to date a white person without larger racial issues intruding? If so, must the black partner in an interracial paring inevitably take a certain uncritical, racially "neutered" position? Can you love a white individual and still recognize and oppose white racism?

Many people would argue "no." One of the primary black criticisms of IRRs is the argument that who you choose to love reflects your own racial self-esteem, and that choosing to love a white person thus reflects a lack of self-love for one's black self, as well as contempt and lack of love for other black people.

Most of us here have long rejected such arguments; but I have seen them being raised again, such as in the context of my prior blog on standards: do you have lower standards for white men than black men? Is the "magic" of whiteness in our white supremacist society so powerful that many blacks will "settle" for a less than impressive white mate, just to somehow revel in their whiteness?

And yet, the question that such arguments always raise for me is what are we supposed to hate: racism or the white race? If it is racism, we should hate it whenever and wherever it manifests itself, and that includes among black people. As Halima has pointed out in discussing the phenomenon of "racio-misogyny," the black community has developed a particular hostility for black women that represents not only a sexist, but a racist dynamic; black women face contempt from other blacks not only for their womanhood, but specifically because of their black womanhood. Does this racio-misogyny thus preclude black women from having healthy relationships with black men? Should we only be partnering with other black women? Are we somehow "spitting in the faces" (as I have seen it phrased more than once) of our black female ancestors by being with black men despite black racio-misogyny?

Such arguments are clearly premised on the idea that your spouse's individual character cannot be separated from his race, and that differing races inevitably present an insurmountable barrier between lovers of different races. But, as I've argued above, this claim only makes sense to the degree that those with proper "self-esteem" can only fall in love with their clones.

A more subtle variation on this argument that I have encountered is the assertion that even if you happen to partner with a white person who isn't somehow representative of "whiteness" itself (including white racism), you and that person still live in different worlds. They enjoy white skin privilege and you don't; they will never understand what you face as a black person in the world, and can thus never provide you the succor and "soft place to fall" that a black person needs to thrive psychologically and emotionally in Western society.

This to me again, however, is a variation on the "clone" theme; it assumes that unless someone has shared an identical experience, they cannot possibly empathize with another's struggles with that experience. On the flipside, it also implies that as long as two people do share a similar experience on one plane, they will automatically empathize with one another, especially around issues deriving from their "common" experience. I hardly need to point out, that this is far from true.

In my own case, I am a black woman and my husband is a white man. He comes from an affluent, upper middle-class family, and I come from a working/middle-class family. He grew up in a tony suburb of NYC, and his father paid for his education in full. I grew up in working-class black city neighborhood in the Midwest, and paid my way through college and law school with student loans and scholarships. In other words, there are many differences between us-- substantial ones. But we both hate racism, sexism, and class oppression. We both love books and music. We both have the same sarcastic, irreverent sense of humor. He's even come to appreciate cats from having to live with them, since I am a package deal (I always come with a cat--just ask my mom!)

I have certainly been accused of "hating" whites, "hating" men, "hating" the rich, when what I hate is inequality and discrimination. For some people, hating the sin is inseparable from hating the sinner, and equating the sin to everyone who looks like the sinner is natural. But I don't think like that, and I believe most black women are capable of more nuanced and reasonable thought on the issues that confront us than the kind of simplistic dichotomies we are too often offered.

So no--I doubt Ms. Kesting hates whites, though she may well hate the white women she works with because of their treatment of her, or even because of her own misperceptions of that treatment--I won't prejudge them either. I don't think she is forbidden from being angry at, or pointing out, racism because her husband is white. Marrying a white person doesn't somehow mean you have "crossed over" to the other side, whatever that side is supposed to consist of. I am on the side of right. And the people who think they can recognize that side by the color of the people standing on it, are sadly in for a lifetime of unhappiness. I'm glad that we here know better!

116 comments:

Ava said...

White women and black women definitely have issues with one another. I am attracted to SOME white men but I hate my wf neighbor. I bought a house in a predominately white neighborhood about 5 years ago and I have a neighbor who trys to get into my personal business. She also makes inappropriate comments constantly. I have a problem with most white women that I meet. They have this feeling of superiority coupled with a feeling of insecurity toward black women. This is especially true when they are around attractive, educated, black women.

If you are overweight, ghetto, tell them all of your business, let them feel your weave...they just love you. If you are coordial and pleasant but choose to keep your distance, you are uppity and aloof.

White women like their black women friends/coworkers to be a certain way. So while I would love to have more white girlfriends, I find it quite difficult. I dont fit any of the images of the black woman that would make them feel comfortable. Furthermore, I am cautious about "opening up" to anyone...especially white women.

I feel that whites who are marrying interracially today dont care about whether all blacks like them and the opposite is true. I have a feeling that they REALLY dont care especially when they are marrying a wealthy black because they dont even have to be bothered with other black folks.

Felicity said...

I have to agree with Ava, some ww do have issues with bw and bw with them. Some do have this protray superiority, but deep down they are very insecure about bw. I suppose for them it is easier to have a wm marry an asian woman or latin/hispanic woman than a bw, and probably the same for some bw, they get very upset with a bw married a ww. As bw we need to be secure in ourselves and how we feel about ourselves and maybe we should look at bm as men period and men are attracted to beautiful women that are non-black, he is only behaving naturally, same way non-black men would be attracted to beautiful bw. To be honest, I find older ww easier to deal with, but some my age group and younger I feel they have this nasty behaviour and Ava is right there, they want their black women friends a certain way, where they can feel sorry for you. If you are pleasant and keep your distance, they assume that you are a snob. To be honest, that is why I am so glad to be able to work from home, I don't have to deal with silly ww, because they try to distract you from your real purpose in life.

Halima said...

But I don't think like that, and I believe most black women are capable of more nuanced and reasonable thought on the issues that confront us than the kind of simplistic dichotomies we are too often offered.

I think this is a key issue aimee, do bw want a nuanced belief or are they willing to simply settle for all those ol' binary notions such as black=good white=bad. indeed have bw come to the point of realising that their current interests are not served by such simplistic dichotomies.

i often get the sense that bw dont know 'what gives' in our current society and it is intentional, they prefer to cling to age old simplistic reasoning for the emotional comfort it gives rather than the realisation that they might have to strick out to find their relationship fortunes in what they view as extremely hostile world.

Anonymous said...

I work around a few ww myself and I am really into wm. I know my ww coworkers hate me(most women do) but they put on this act, as if they really like me.
They are always inviting me to hang out with them after work. I have taken they up on their invitations on a few occasions but the moment they don't think I can hear them talking, it's all about me and this obssession they have with everything I say or do, and what is going in my life all of the time(their insane). I had to put one of them in her place for asking me too many personal questions. I just don't understand the obssession and the need to know everything about me.
If someone here knows what that is all about? Please explain.

I am the kind of person who strongly believes in; live and let live. So, I don't understand why anyone would be so concerned with what is going on in someone elses life when that person's life has nothing to do with yours.

I now keep to myself at work and I don't interact with them anymore. It is driving them nuts and I don't understand, why my not talking to them bothers them so damn much.

ABA

Aimee said...

I think there is quite often an interpersonal tension between BW and WW, just as there is between BM and WM. that has evolved out our society's twisted racial and sexual politics.

The black community has historically encouraged BW to share the same sense of narrowly focused enstrangement and resentment towards WM that BM feel, while ignoring the role of WW in perpetuating systemic racism, especially towards BW--we all are supposed to see WM as THE enemy, while WW women are viewed either neutrally, or even touted as "natural" allies.

However, for many BW, their most salient and direct experiences of anti-black racism has been at the hands of WW, and the racism of WW, as distinct from that of WM, is too often ignored. It is the reason why many black nationalist men felt comfortable having sexual and romantic relationships with WW, while demonizing WM--and simultaneously demonizing any BW who exercised the same freedom in her dating options as they did as "traitors" and "belly-warmers."

daphne said...

The black community has historically encouraged BW to share the same sense of narrowly focused enstrangement and resentment towards WM that BM feel, while ignoring the role of WW in perpetuating systemic racism, especially towards BW--we all are supposed to see WM as THE enemy, while WW women are viewed either neutrally, or even touted as "natural" allies.

Yes, yes, and yes. The assumption that white privilege or supremacy only applies to WM has often confused me, and by extension the belief that it's unnatural to be suspicious of WW but perfectly justified and acceptable to be suspicious of WM. That's not to say I advocate demonizing WW as a group (or WM); I certainly don't. However, the sometimes willful ignorance of WW in the role of systemic racism is akin to seeing out of one eye while covering the other one - not viewing the whole picture.

Anonymous said...

"However, for many BW, their most salient and direct experiences of anti-black racism has been at the hands of WW, and the racism of WW, as distinct from that of WM, is too often ignored."
_______________________________

Aimee,

This is so true. I too had bought into the idea that ww were racially neutral(foolish on my part). I thought because I had always had a hard getting along with other bw, that being friends with ww would be easier due to the fact that I could be myself. I am a very light-skinned bw and ww consider me dark or olive complected which appealed to me. I didn't have to deal with the colorism issue as I have had to with other bw. I also didn't have to be faced with being judged for "acting white". But, what I have come to find out is that ww resent the fact that I am not "acting black" enough for them and that I have good things going for myself (intelligence, drive and good looks).

I have always believed that only other bp resented these qualities I possessed but now I know that ww resent them even more.

ABA

Ava said...

I had to put one of them in her place for asking me too many personal questions. I just don't understand the obssession and the need to know everything about me.
If someone here knows what that is all about? Please explain.

Anonymous,
Insecure white women want to know everything about you because it is a way of keeping tabs on you to make sure that you dont have it any better than they do...to put it quite simply.

classical one said...

Can you love a white individual and still recognize and oppose white racism?


You sure can! The problem lies in how people go about addressing white racism. You had people like Malcolm X who spoke great truth about white racism but who had strong racist views himself until his change of heart in the last year of his life. Some folks can't see the forest for the trees. It seems like this woman's dislike of white women while still being married to a white man was revelaed perhaps unintentionally. But if your response to racism is more racism, what are you really accomplishing?

Anonymous said...

Insecure white women want to know everything about you because it is a way of keeping tabs on you to make sure that you dont have it any better than they do...to put it quite simply.
___________________________

Thanks Ava, I totally get it now.

Meanwhile, I couldn't give a sh*t about what they have or what is going on in their lives. I just think their pathetic.

It amazes that ww can behave like this towards bw and when bw say anything about it. We are accused of bashing or being jealous of ww,as if, they can't be jealous of us. I have never been jealous of ww because I have nevr felt that they really had anything over me; in terms of intelligence, ambition or looks. The only thing ww have over me and other bw is their white skin priviledge which gives them a very false sense of superority, in my opinion.

ABA

Ava said...

Anonymous,
the thing that really gets to white women is that they despise us soooo much and feel we are inferior to them yet some of their men still date/marry us. That is where the insecurity lies. And you know that when sisters go for white men...well that have to have something going for them. Unlike the situation with black men going for white women.

PioneerValleyWoman said...

Aimee:

The black community has historically encouraged BW to share the same sense of narrowly focused enstrangement and resentment towards WM that BM feel, while ignoring the role of WW in perpetuating systemic racism, especially towards BW--we all are supposed to see WM as THE enemy, while WW women are viewed either neutrally, or even touted as "natural" allies.

My reply:

And white women have been so effective at presenting themselves to people of color (especially black men) as victims of sexism, they hide behind claims that "the evil white man" made them do it, but they really, really are not racist.

So yes, forgetting to mention that regardless of what "the evil white man" made them do against people of color, these were their fathers, brothers, husbands, etc, and as such, they had certain loyalties as women and have gotten certain privileges as the mothers, sisters, wives, etc. of "the evil white man".

They act as though their actions have nothing at all to do with racism, while they continue to get some serious benefits from it!

Evia said...

Aimee! This particular post of yours is on FIRE--and so much at the heart of the BW-WM relationship issue until I sincerely hope you expand this into a book. You have really laid it out here!!

This post speaks directly to the issue of 'sleeping with the enemy' that bw in IRs with wm are often accused of and MANY bw are STILL so fearful of being hit with this accusation. This is STILL one of the main reasons why SOME bw don't and won't date wm or shy away from dating wm or white-skinned men.

Bw are indeed very capable of nuanced thought and behavior, however nuanced thought and behavior are not often presented as a model and definitely not as a more superior or more productive model of thinking for huge segments of black folks. Instead, there is so much of the "good-bad, right-wrong" type of talk in the speech of many very vocal and influencer type black folks (ministers, community leaders, black politicians, etc.) and this type of simplistic thinking is highly applauded by other blacks--with no appreciation whatsoever for nuances, subtlety, or degrees/shades of meaning, etc. Also, it amazes me that so many AA women still don't seem to be thinking in terms of: "what promotes MY/OUR interests and what doesn't" which IMO is a vastly superior model to guide thought and behavior.

However since many people still want the simplistic, here's my rule of thumb for regarding ALL people: I intensely dislike ANYONE (any person or persons of whatever race, ethnicity, gender, etc.) who mistreats or harms me and those in my affinity group, particularly when it's intentional. And I especially like and embrace those individuals who promote and protect my interests and the interests of those in my affinity group.

I do not label ANY broad group as being ALL good or ALL bad because I've been harmed AND treated well by ww and bw and I've been harmed AND treated well by wm and ww.

ABA said...

I read the article a few times. I personally don't think she was being racist. Kesting was merely conveying to the audience the racist attitudes of her wf co-workers that was creating a hostile environment for her, at her place of employment. She felt that they resented the fact that she was a bw married to a wm. She also mentioned that she didn't hate these women.

So, I really don't see where she was being racist by talking about the racism she felt was be perpetuated upon by the ww she worked with.

I wonder how it would have been interpeted if a ww with saying this about her bw co-workers.
The bw not liking her because she was married to bm. Would that ww be accused of being racist too?

ABA said...

So, I really don't see where she was being racist by talking about the racism she felt was be perpetuated upon by the ww she worked with.
________________________________

I meant: being perpetrated upon her by the ww she worked with.

arthur said...

.. Marrying a white person doesn't somehow mean you have "crossed over" to the other side, whatever that side is supposed to consist of. I am on the side of right. And the people who think they can recognize that side by the color of the people standing on it, are sadly in for a lifetime of unhappiness...

And there are far too many people who want to take away from us the choosing of our side; people who want the choice made for us by the happenstance of our skin color.

I don't like the idea of someone telling me that my granddaughter and I have to be on different sides. That doesn't work for me.

I think maybe a lot of us are going to have to start thinking about having our own side.

classical one said...

I love my enemies. I pray every day with my enemies because I have to go up on the third floor and work with white women,"


Now what if a black man had said this about white men? Same reaction from everyone here?

Jason said...

Are we somehow "spitting in the faces" (as I have seen it phrased more than once) of our black female ancestors by being with black men despite black racio-misogyny?

In all fairness, historically far more racism toward black women has come from whites. Misogyny is a problem within the black community and black women become the greater target of it due to their existence within the black community. Similarly, white women are the greater targets of white misogyny because they are who white men overwhelmingly interact with. Misogyny toward black women by black men typically has little or nothing to do with black women being black. Black men who refer to women as 'hos', 'bitches' etc. tend to refer to women of all races as such. Same for white men. I don't know how many times I have heard the phrase 'white bitches'.

A good analogy would be the way that black men are so violent toward each other. They are not more violent toward each other because they are black, but rather because they interact closely with one another within that setting of violence. Other races are generally outside of that setting. It is the same reason that the vast majority of violence committed by whites is against other whites. It's not because of white hatred toward whites.

In cases of misandry, black men are the primary targets of black female misandry, not because the men are black, but because it is black men who they interact most with. Go to any radical feminist site and notice that white men are the overwhelming target of their ire.

Aimee said...

classical one said...

I love my enemies. I pray every day with my enemies because I have to go up on the third floor and work with white women,"


Now what if a black man had said this about white men? Same reaction from everyone here?


Number one, I don't know what "same reaction" you are referring to; I said in my blog that I wasn't going to pre-judge either Ms. Kesting or the white women she worked with, since I do not know the objective reality of their work situation, only her perception.

Number two, if this hypothetical black man were dealing with a work environment where he was the manager of an all-white staff that resented having to report to, and obey the directives, of a black superior because of his blackness, I could certainly emphathize with his experience--it still happens all the time. I don't think expressing frustration with that situation is the same as responding to "racism with more racism" as you put it. I think it is unfortunate if you can't recognize that.

Aimee said...

Jason said...

In all fairness, historically far more racism toward black women has come from whites . . . Misogyny toward black women by black men typically has little or nothing to do with black women being black.

If your claim is that BW experience more racism from whites than misogyny from BM, and that BM misogyny towards BW has nothing to do with BW's blackness, I cannot agree with you.

Jason said...

If your claim is that BW experience more racism from whites than misogyny from BM,

That was not my claim. My claim is that historically, more racism towards black women has come from whites than from other blacks. Racism and misogyny or two separate things.

HISTORICALLY (as I specified), the racism whites have dished out toward blacks, including black women, does exceed any misogyny from black men toward black women. Now, one can legitimately argue that currently, the misogyny exceeds racism, but not historically. I specifically stated "historically".

"Misogyny" is a rather subjective term. Is the way that black men are so violent toward each other an example of misandry on the part of black men, or does it simply show a culture of violence and irrational behavior? Is not domestic abuse at least as high in interracial relationships and possibly higher?

With black men and black women, I see it as a case of "you always hurt the ones you love". Typically, those we are closest to suffer most from our inadequacies. Most white women who are abused and degraded are abused and degraded by white men. I don't think that white men, in general, hate white women specifically. Likewise, I don't see any evidence that black men, in general, specifically hate black women. I think quite the opposite, so that is a point you and I definitely disagree on.

Jason said...

To Aimee:

I'm no mind reader, but I believe that the poster "Classical One" was basically asking whether the general response to this topic (not just your response) would differ if this had been a black man making similar comments about white men. I've read over some older topics on your blog and it seems to be geared toward placing both black women and white men on a pedestal. I'm not criticizing this, but it does lead to speculation that the hypothetical black man would be less defended and more criticized by your commenters than is the case with this lady. Do you disagree?

Aimee said...

Jason said...

To Aimee:

I've read over some older topics on your blog and it seems to be geared toward placing both black women and white men on a pedestal . . . Do you disagree?


Yes.

Jason said...

I must correct myself Aimee. I didn't mean to say that your topics say this, but rather the common responses of your readers. To me, the common responses seem to place black women and white men on a pedestal. Not all readers, but many.

ABA said...

"I love my enemies. I pray every day with my enemies because I have to go up on the third floor and work with white women"

__________________________________

My interpetation of the quote is that, she felt that the ww she worked with saw HER as their enemy. I don't believe she held any real resentment towards them because Kesting didn't say anything racist against them(was calling them ww and revealing their mistreated of her at work, racist?). How was she suppose to feel in a situation like that? Just be silient and allow them to continue to mistreat her because she feared being labeled a racist herself or paranoid, by short-sighted indivuals who might not know what it is like to be discriminated against.

People are entitled to their own feelings and perceptions, whether we agree with them or not.

Like Aimee said, "I don't think expressing frustration with that situation is the same as responding to "racism with more racism"

Clarice said...

Jason said May 12, 2008 5:17... With black men and black women, I see it as a case of "you always hurt the ones you love". Typically, those we are closest to suffer most from our inadequacies. Most white women who are abused and degraded are abused and degraded by white men. I don't think that white men, in general, hate white women specifically. Likewise, I don't see any evidence that black men, in general, specifically hate black women. I think quite the opposite, so that is a point you and I definitely disagree on."

That may very well be true however the key points that matter are that BW are still getting hurt - and that WW are not expected to just sit there and take it and WM do not get a pass for abusing their wives and children on a wholesale basis by their supposed community, unlike the "BC". Not saying that collectively BM hate BW - there are individual exceptions but based on behaviors and attitudes it can hardly be argued successfully that BM have BW's collective back or their best interest at heart. Actions or lack of same speak louder than words. Any sane person knows if you see crazy - harmful, destructive regardless of color, source or reason cross the street. Hurting someone without remorse, pity or consequences is unacceptable - non negotiable regardless of how much "love" there might be. Love does not hurt and if it does it is time to leave! No one is defending DBR WM to WW and expecting them to stand by them. Society has safeguards built in for WW to get out and get help. WW are encourage not to take abuse from anyone in any form - hence the sense of entitlement so many of them exhibit. Women of color largely do not have that support for exercising those options to get out.

V/r

Clarice

Jason said...

That may very well be true however the key points that matter are that BW are still getting hurt - and that WW are not expected to just sit there and take it and WM do not get a pass for abusing their wives and children on a wholesale basis by their supposed community, unlike the "BC". Not saying that collectively BM hate BW - there are individual exceptions but based on behaviors and attitudes it can hardly be argued successfully that BM have BW's collective back or their best interest at heart.

I would be curious to read more details of the phenomenon you refer to, that being the abuses by black men of black women. For instance, domestic abuse. Statistically, something like 12 out of a 1000 black women suffer abuse from a partner. Thus, for every one black women abused, roughly 83 are not. So why are the non-abusive ways of 83 black men overshadowed by the abusive way of one?

Also, can you give some stats of the abuse of black children by black men? The majority of abused black children are abused by their mothers.

Also, can you give me more on this wholesale pass black men are getting for abuse?

And what is "DBR WM"? I assume that WM stands for "white men".

Anonymous said...

And what is "DBR WM

Damaged Beyond Repair

Sandra77 said...

Jason, if you were really interested in the information you asked for, you would already have looked it up yourself. Instead you want to play games. This isn't the blog for gameplaying.

knockoutchick said...

Hello Ava,

Ava said
"I bought a house in a predominately white neighborhood about 5 years ago and I have a neighbor who trys to get into my personal business. She also makes inappropriate comments constantly."

Yes in deed whites are very different. LOL

I do find that middle class white American women are very open in sharing details of their personal lives freely...I guess it is their way of "female bonding". I see WW acquaintances sharing very very intimate stories ...very quickly in relationships.

Yet most well brought up black folks were always told not to "put your business" in the streets. Family and personal issues were rarely shared with out siders.

I was having this VERY conversation the other day with friends and the way I can highlight it most is by looking at the homes of whites in blacks of similar backgrounds in NY.

If you walk through Park Slope or Brooklyn Heights in New York where you find beautiful, elegant old painfully pricey brownstone homes...you will see in the areas which are predominately white...the floor to ceiling windows have no shades, no blinds and are completely open.Therefore, if you are passing on the street you can look directly into the home, you can even stop and see families eating dinner at 8pm or lounging watching TV.

In similar areas, like Fort Greene where you have middle class blacks...all the homes have shades or blinds :-) Black people would NEVER leave their entire home open in this manner.

You ALL know that's true!

knockoutchick said...

Hello Aimee,

Aimee said
"I think there is quite often an interpersonal tension between BW and WW, just as there is between BM and WM. that has evolved out our society's twisted racial and sexual politics."

Ohhh so true. Yet, it has been my personal experience that the WW I know are in the just struggling trying to find love or make their relationships work just like you and me.

I have not found that it is any "easier" for WW in relationships here in NY, as ALL women are dealing with the changes in sexual roles.

Since I have seen BEHIND the scenes with a few WW in relationships with BM...and I do mean "SCENES" :-). I say, just because you see a woman walking hand and hand with an attractive man does not mean she has "got a man" and doing fine. We all know it is not just what is on the surface.

Though I will say, my closest WW friends are European born and not white American.

knockoutchick said...

Hey ABA,

ABA said:
"But, what I have come to find out is that ww resent the fact that I am not "acting black" enough for them and that I have good things going for myself (intelligence, drive and good looks). "

I say...Yes Girl, when you are sharp, good looking and on the ball, I do think SOME WW have difficulty with that. I do believe this particular shoving match will only escalate as more WW realize..."Oh wait a minute I do have to "compete" with these BW as well for the dwindling numbers of desireable men.

knockoutchick said...

Good Morning PVW!

PVW said:
"They act as though their actions have nothing at all to do with racism, while they continue to get some serious benefits from it!"

Well It has been my experience the WW never even think of racial politics in this way. It doesn't even cross their minds. Maybe now there is some talk. I have found it is only black people who discuss race and racial dynamics constantly.

WW have just been able to go about their lives and quietly benefit from the dynamics in place. Sincethe WW I know are not in any way actively racist, I would say they in no way contribute to the dynamics, but that yes they do in some way still benefit as PVW posted.

The only thing that has caused WW to start to look at racial or sexual dynamics in this city is the dwindling numbers of suitable WM partners and the growing wave of IR dating.

C said...

Anonymous said...May 14, 2008 9:15 PM And what is "DBR WM"

Damaged Beyond Repair White Male

WM - White Male

DBR is not restricted to one race or gender despite the hoopla

Jason said...

Sandra77 said...
Jason, if you were really interested in the information you asked for, you would already have looked it up yourself.


I did, and I presented my findings (1 of 83 black women experience abuse; most abused black children are abused by their mothers). My question is how does Clarice come to her conclusions based on these findings? I cetainly hope that you will not try to make a squabble out of an otherwise civil discussion.

Jason said...

Damaged Beyond Repair White Male

Thank you. I've not familiar witht he phrase. What does it mean to be Damaged Beyond Repair? Is it someone who has been a victim of some type of abuse?

Ava said...

It seems like this woman's dislike of white women while still being married to a white man was revelaed perhaps unintentionally. But if your response to racism is more racism, what are you really accomplishing?


C-1

You dont know how this woman should be feeling because you dont know what she experienced with white women. So her dislike might be a result of some bad encounters.

Ava said...

I love my enemies. I pray every day with my enemies because I have to go up on the third floor and work with white women,"


Now what if a black man had said this about white men? Same reaction from everyone here?

C-1

I personally would not care. I know how arrogant white men can be. We dont all WORSHIP white men here. For some of us it is just an option. So I for one dont need a lesson on not bashing the black man from you. We dont all WORSHIP white men.LOL Get over yourself and white men. Most black women are not even attracted to white men.

Ava said...

To C-1

Trust me do not think that the black women on these blogs represent the views of most black women.

J said...

@Jason

I suppose the statistics show more child abuse on Black children being done by Black women because Black women clearly are around their children more than Black men are, as we can see from the stats that 75% of Black children are born to a single mother. Similarly, abuse to children does not just happen inside of the home. Little Black girls are often molested and raped, particularly in underprivileged communities, and most of the time it is done by Black men. Now that is not to make the claim that the majority of BM are abusers, I would never say that, but I do hate when people wildly throw out comments such as the one you said without concerning themselves with critically thinking about their claim and if it is true and made on a sound basis.

classical one said...

Get over yourself and white men.

"uhh. I'm over it ,thanks for your concern"


"Most black women are not even attracted to white men."


Try tellin me something I don't know.

GoldenAh said...

>>do you have lower standards for white men than black men? Is the "magic" of whiteness in our white supremacist society so powerful that many blacks will "settle" for a less than impressive white mate, just to somehow revel in their whiteness?


Just to be wicked, since people seem unable to mind their own business when it comes to bw with wm - the answer is, "Yes," to all of the above. I mean stat after stat says we are the least married and with a poor bm to bw ratio. But nah, folks want to dictate who we should be with, when, why, and what-not.

I only hope these know-it-all busybodies send checks to help pay our bills since they seem so determined to control our lives.

I can understand that woman expressing her frustration with the hate parade she must face. Perhaps bw need an express yourself day, so folks get used to the junk we have to face. She's facing racism and sexism, yet somehow she's supposed to be well behaved and docile about it. Good for her to get it off her chest.

PioneerValleyWoman said...

Knockoutchick:

You ALL know that's true!

My reply:

Indeed! I have noticed that too, whether in NYC, or elsewhere...

What is fascinating, is what someone else observed, that to criticize racism/prejudice can be seen as racist!

BWtamedKen said...

Hello,
I think that to "hate" some one is to strong of a word here. you may dislike or dispise what some one is doing or acting like, but to say you hate them means alot more then disapproving of some ones behavior. I'm a WM who loves a BW I don't hate WW but some WW do things in ways that I do not agree with at all. I do not Hate anyone but I disapprove of anyone who promots racism or segrigation in anyway.

Jason said...

J said...
I suppose the statistics show more child abuse on Black children being done by Black women because Black women clearly are around their children more than Black men are, as we can see from the stats that 75% of Black children are born to a single mother.

I've always heard that it was 70 percent. The problem with your statement is that it has been shown statistically that black children raised in two parent households are less likely to be abused than black children raised in single parent households, thus those black men who live with their children are less likely to abuse them than single black mothers.

Similarly, abuse to children does not just happen inside of the home. Little Black girls are often molested and raped, particularly in underprivileged communities, and most of the time it is done by Black men.

Little white girls and boys are often molested and raped by white men. Little Hispanic girls and boys are often molested and raped by Hispanic men. So why make it out to be a black male phenomenon? To tell the truth, what one sees when black men molest children is mostly a case of young black men having sex with willing underaged post-pubescent girls who are unfortunately sexually active at a young age. And while that is very bad, in my opinion it is not at the level of what is more common among white and Hispanic child molesters, that being sex with pre-pubescent children (pedophilia) with a significant portion of those children being boys.

Now that is not to make the claim that the majority of BM are abusers, I would never say that, but I do hate when people wildly throw out comments such as the one you said without concerning themselves with critically thinking about their claim and if it is true and made on a sound basis.

I'm responding to wildly thrown out comments that have no sound basis and I have justified my comments previously and in this current post.

Halima said...

You ALL know that's true!

My reply:

Indeed! I have noticed that too, whether in NYC, or elsewhere...

What is fascinating, is what someone else observed, that to criticize racism/prejudice can be seen as racist!


Yes pioneerwoman

we mustnt forget we are just lowly bw who have no right to speak up even about those who have a boot on our neck.

I mean how dare we, have we forgotten our place at the bottom of the totem pole. Have we forgotten it is heresy to speak against the inviolable ww! (heavy sarcasm)

Sandra77 said...

Jason, your logic (or lack thereof) is baffling. Please note that the readers on this blog are not neophytes and we have been through the blog wars. What you write is nothing new and has already been debunked on this blog and other blogs and by other well-researched treatises. We've been around this block before.

Aimee said...

Halima said...

we mustnt forget we are just lowly bw who have no right to speak up even about those who have a boot on our neck.

I mean how dare we, have we forgotten our place at the bottom of the totem pole. Have we forgotten it is heresy to speak against the inviolable ww! (heavy sarcasm)


I think this is the root of "the black women and white men on a pedestal" plaint that is occasionally reasserted here and on other IR blogs. #1, as I mentioned, we as BW are not supposed to ever have any kind of positive feelings for any WM. Such feelings, regardless of their foundation, are invariably suspicious and a glaring sign of self-loathing.

#2, and probably above all, we are not supposed to express consistently positive opinions about BW. Being "pro-black" means being pro-BM; indeed, it often means being anti-BW, since BW are often seen as undermining and challenging BM, and the root of all the troubles black people suffer as a community. To consider BW beautiful, intelligent, accomplished, feminine, womanly, loving and worthy of love are concepts that many people in our society, regardless of race, have never encountered. They are used to seeing BW portrayed through an exclusively negative prism; so positive imagery of BW seems unnatural, false, an effort to somehow "prop up" BW on a pedastal that we have no right to stand on.

And, of course, since we are commonly viewed as worthless, our viewpoints can be similarly dismissed in the same way, without serious reasonable or factual engagement. Why bother? As BW, our words and opinions are immediately suspect and lacking in credibility anyway, especially if challenged by anyone else, on any other basis. Even WM who claim to "love" BW feel comfortable asserting that we are somehow incapable of balanced analysis, that for example, we likely would be incapable of recognizing discrimination or prejudice against a BM under similar circumstances. This only reflects how powerful the imagery that our analyses and opinions are valueless is, even for those who consciously believe they are "beyond" such thinking. It also reflects how even those who are not black think empathizing with black people = emphathizing with BM, exclusively--period.

That's why I unapologetically made this a site for BW and those who love us. Debate, reasoned critiques, thoughtful dissection--absolutely. But always with love and respect. People who are uncomfortable with that will never be comfortable with this blog, and their comfort is not something that I worry about.

Jason said...

Sandra77 said...
What you write is nothing new and has already been debunked on this blog and other blogs and by other well-researched treatises. We've been around this block before.

I doubt it, but you are free to post these alleged debunkings. The conversation right now is one regarding the alleged abusiveness of black men against black children and here is some research.

http://www.ncjrs.gov/html/ojjdp/jjbul2001_12_3/page2.html

Offenders against juveniles in State prisons differed from offenders against adults in many other ways, including race, gender, age, and marital status. The majority of offenders against juveniles were white; they accounted for 73 percent of those who had victimized children and 56 percent of those who had victimized teens. In contrast, the majority of incarcerated offenders against adults (59 percent) were nonwhite. Although the overall prison population of violent offenders was almost equally divided between white and black inmates, more white offenders (30 percent) than black offenders (13 percent) had committed crimes against juveniles (figure 3).

Below deals with usage of the internet to victimize children:

http://www.unh.edu/ccrc/national_juvenile_online_victimization.html

The vast majority of offenders were non-Hispanic White males older than 25 who were acting alone.

So again, I ask for something concrete to support the allegations of black men abusing children.

mekare said...

Jason you are one disgusting and pathetic creature. This is one of the many reasons why I do not respect black men.

Your arguments are as follows:

1) Black men do not molest children because they abandon them and therefore aren't around them.

2) Black men only have sex with underage girls.

3) Black men molest kids? Only white men do that! Prove it!

You act like black men are not above molesting little boys and girls. Black people can't even talk about sexual abuse in the black community and as soon as we do, idiots like Jason pop up.

Jason said...

Jason you are one disgusting and pathetic creature. This is one of the many reasons why I do not respect black men.

Hey Aimee. Looks like "debate, reasoned critiques, thoughtful dissection" went out the window.

Your arguments are as follows:

1) Black men do not molest children because they abandon them and therefore aren't around them.


No, that's J's argument from May 16, 2008 7:33 PM. You may want to read the thread a bit more carefully.

2) Black men only have sex with underage girls.

I never made such a statement. The vast majority of black men have sex with women above the age of consent.

3) Black men molest kids? Only white men do that! Prove it!

Something else I never said, and I posted statistics as evidence that black men have no greater tendency to molest kids and probably have less of such a tendency especially when it comes to children below the age of 12.

You act like black men are not above molesting little boys and girls.

I'm sure that you want to believe that black men are not above molesting little boys and girls (though I'm sure you didn't intend on phrasing your statement that way). I do believe that the vast majority of black men are above it.

Black people can't even talk about sexual abuse in the black community and as soon as we do, idiots like Jason pop up.

Translation: We can't have an irrational conversation about sexual abuse in the black community because rational people like Jason want to bring logic and facts into the conversation.

knockoutchick said...

Hmmm,

What do you call someone who consistently visits a blog and posts about a topic ENTIRELY different that the thread topics?

But wait...maybe I'll just post and post about the same off topic eventhough I am not getting responses...because only I speak the truth.

I'm here to spread wisdom to you poor misguided women and share the facts with you as you all obviously do not have full access to "the internets" :-)

BTW, we don't need another defender of black male abusers, Rev. Al Sharpton already has that job. Thank you

Candy said...

Jason,

YAWN

BWtamedKen said...

Aimee said... #1, as I mentioned, we as BW are not supposed to ever have any kind of positive feelings for any WM. Such feelings, regardless of their foundation, are invariably suspicious and a glaring sign of self-loathing."

Personally I think your looking at this the wrong way. Loving some one of a diffrent race don't mean you loath your self or any thing about your own race. I'm white and my gf is AA. We do not loath our selves or our race. I don't have contempt or harsh feelings toward White people and My gf don't have contempt or harsh feelings toward the AA people. We just Love one another and race has nothing to do with it.

Aimee said... #2, and probably above all, we are not supposed to express consistently positive opinions about BW. Being "pro-black" means being pro-BM; indeed, it often means being anti-BW, since BW are often seen as undermining and challenging BM, and the root of all the troubles black people suffer as a community. To consider BW beautiful, intelligent, accomplished, feminine, womanly, loving and worthy of love are concepts that many people in our society, regardless of race, have never encountered. They are used to seeing BW portrayed through an exclusively negative prism; so positive imagery of BW seems unnatural, false, an effort to somehow "prop up" BW on a pedastal that we have no right to stand on."

OK I think your way off base here. having apositive opinion of BW or a negative one is up to each individual. yes some people are ignorant and tend to have negative opinions about the Black community as a whole but they are not the majority. being pro-bm does not mean anti-bw if this is the case then why be pro-bm? the fact that BW are looking out of the Black community for relationships and marriage does not mean they are not pro-bm they are just expanding thier dating possibilities. as for BW being "the root of all the troubles black people suffer as a community." are you kidding? BW are not the cause of all the toubles i think it is a unified mess. not one culture people or gender can be to blame for the troubles AA face. white people back when slavery was around were wrong to be a part of the slavery which occured. but they are not the ones who started slavery. slavery has been around for so long waybefor Jesus walked the earth. many cultures used slaves to build thier empires but i am not saying they were right to do so far from it. but blaming BW for all the troubles is greatly exaggerated.

Aimee said... "our words and opinions are immediately suspect and lacking in credibility anyway"

I personally respect and cerish opinions from anyone regarless of gender or race. it just depends on the contexts of the statments and the statment them selves. the one person whoms opinion I trust more then any one elses is my gf who is a BW.
so to day that the opinions of BW are "immediately suspect and lacking in credibility anyway" is not always true if you mean as for the societies opinion possibly which is a sad thing. I think BW have more sense then most people out there and I respect thier opinions and thier attitude. they are strong willed, loving, compasionate, and so much more.

BWtamedKen said...

Hello,
from what you all have been talking about i think WW are very prone to gossup. in truth i don't know what the big deal is. course I
m a guy so how ould i know right.
but as for the way ww act i think it's because they are thretaned by strong, beautiful, professional BW. I think if any one regardless of race is talking about some one behind thier back should be left alone. I don't care for gossup nor demeaning others. sadly many people need something to talk about so they find some one who they are threatend by or want to demean to talk about with other like minded people. i think women do this the most but i'm not sure of that.

Anonymous said...

BWtamedKen, with all due respect, your post smacks of ignorance. You have no inner workings of the dynamics that goes on within American black communities and the particular, unique position American black women are in. I have lived what Aimee is talking about and I am sick and tired of other people telling me what my reality is. I have lived being called a ho and a bitch as well as a traitor to my race all my life by my own. I was expected to put on the Superwoman title with no regard to my own well being. I literally have seen beautiful, black women (my mother included) all dead before the age of fifty-five due to being a mule to their families and communities. If you did anything less you were selfish. There are so many black women working two jobs, running single parent households, and expected to put with so much. They are told to give black men a break in terms of providing and being a functional parent because the white man is holding them back. I think you’re looking at this from an individual, color-blind “fair” merit system. This is why I get frustrated with so many whites because so many have the same rhetoric, it’s practically identical. They can’t look beyond the individual, color-blind mindset. What we’re talking about is a historical, collective dynamic that is still plaguing black Americans today and most of it admittedly is by our own hands. We are becoming the destroyers in our own destruction.

Aimee you speak the truth, we have been in such a negative light for so long it now seems so natural that to go against the grain is automatically looked on as suspect. I use to shut up when others told me I was way off base, or that I’m imaging things, especially when I have encountered racism from white women. No more. As black women we have to look out for our own well being and that also means our image. We can’t be worried if we prick black and white men’s feathers by speaking our truth.

Best,
Jaz

Anonymous said...

Jaz,

YAWN

Anonymous said...

I know, Anon. The truth hurts. No worries.

Best,
Jaz

mekare said...

Jason,

I spoke too soon. I thought jason = j.

My apologies

Jason said...

No problem Mekare.

knockoutchick said...
Hmmm,

What do you call someone who consistently visits a blog and posts about a topic ENTIRELY different that the thread topics?


How can it be ENTIRELY different when the discussion resulted directly from my direct response to a point made by Aimee in her original post? Note specifically what I was responding to on May 12, 2008 3:35 PM.

But wait...maybe I'll just post and post about the same off topic eventhough I am not getting responses...because only I speak the truth.

Every post I have made in this thread has gotten a response. What I haven't gotten from those responses is anything validating the various claims that I am disputing and I strongly suspect that this is because such validation is non-existent.

BTW, we don't need another defender of black male abusers, Rev. Al Sharpton already has that job. Thank you

Disputing claims that a certain type of abuse is running rampant and defending that type of abuse are two totally different things.

I will agree that Sharpton does defend abusers, beginning with Tawana Brawley's abusive false allegations and including those of Crystal Mangum.

Anonymous said...

Why is anyone continuing to entertain this idiot, Jason? Please, ignore him so he can go away.

Jason said...

Anonymous
May 20, 2008 2:42 PM,

First you "yawn" at Jazz, then you call others names. Why so childish?

Sandra77 said...

Please let's not feed the troll who shall remain nameless (Jason), and let's see if he can resist a comeback (egomaniacs seldom can).

knockoutchick said...

On Topic:

"Marrying a white person doesn't somehow mean you have "crossed over" to the other side, whatever that side is supposed to consist of"

I find the perceptions many people have of what goes on in IRRs very strange. IRRs are often spoken about PRIMARILY in terms of one party gaining or losing over the other partner.

All relationships have power dynamics, and usually it is the partner who controls the money that has the power. Whether they choose to relinquish or share control in the relationship is their choice.

As far as being married white but disliking whites...sure it happens, but that's not what I got from reading about this particular woman.

The title of this thread reminds me of the skit/storyline from the film "I'm gonna git you sucka" where the fiery black nationalist preaches his anti-whitey speeches in front of his white wife and children. And everytime he rails about the white man and getting "whitey", his white family chimes in with "Right On"!!! ;-)

J said...

@Jason

I never said or claimed it was a Black male phenomenon. Abuse, particularly sexual abuse, happens within every community with men. YOU are the other hand are actually attempting to make the claim that Black men are somehow less bad about it because the women they are sleeping with are "willing". So yes you are making outrageous claims and no your posts are not founded on solid logic. Also I would like to add how ridiculous it is to compare the abuse rate in a single mother household to the abuse rate within a two parent household since one is obviously more stable than the other no matter how you look at it. Wouldn't it make more sense to compare the abuse rate within a single father household to that of a single mother household? Yes, it would. But of course the amount of single Black male households in comparison to single Black female households is negligible, which is why you didn't think to compare it even though it makes for a much more logical comparison.

BWtamedKen said...

Anonymous said...
"BWtamedKen, with all due respect, your post smacks of ignorance. You have no inner workings of the dynamics that goes on within American black communities and the particular, unique position American black women are in."

My Response
for the most part you are correct i do not have the intel on the inner workings of the Black community or the stress AA men put on AA women. but it is hardly ignorance but perhaps lack of information. I am learning, but lets face it how far can a white man get in to the Black community. I have seen post after post saying the "White man is bad" from many sites. sadly some AA's still feel this way. I am not saying I understand every thingabout the AA community in fact i know very little but this is not ignorance.


Anonymous said... "I have lived what Aimee is talking about and I am sick and tired of other people telling me what my reality is. I have lived being called a ho and a bitch as well as a traitor to my race all my life by my own. I was expected to put on the Superwoman title with no regard to my own well being. I literally have seen beautiful, black women (my mother included) all dead before the age of fifty-five due to being a mule to their families and communities. If you did anything less you were selfish. There are so many black women working two jobs, running single parent households, and expected to put with so much. They are told to give black men a break in terms of providing and being a functional parent because the white man is holding them back. I think you’re looking at this from an individual, color-blind “fair” merit system."

My Response
I look at things the way the bible tells us to and the way the constitution tells us to. I think people should not be judged based on race or genderor anything other then hard work. I want to be "fair" to every one but if some one works harder then another person then they should be commended for thier hard work. the fact that AA women have been the "mules" of thier families says alot about AA men. and from your own words...

"What we’re talking about is a historical, collective dynamic that is still plaguing black Americans today and most of it admittedly is by our own hands. We are becoming the destroyers in our own destruction."

I may not be able to fully understand all of the difficulties AA people have undertaken but in many ways i can relate my ansestors were oppressed as well, My great grandmother picked cotton beside AA women in the early 1900's and was treated as if she was not human. but no she was not a slave, but the native american side of my family had to endure the "trail of tears" and being at war with meny settlers and when captures they were treated horribly. I never said it was fair or that white and AA people should let it go but i am saying that we should learn to accept each other as equals, for we are all created equal under God.

personally I love my GF and I want to make her life easier not harder. the fact that the AA community has let thier men who do and say degrading things to each other and to the AA woman give those men "a break in terms of providing and being a functional parent because the white man is holding them back." is not the fault of the "white man". I'm not saying that some white people don't play favorates with a certin race, sadly some do, but it is not just white men it is also white women, even people of other races. I personally belive those who are racist should be deported to an island or even North Dakota, so they can just leave good hard working people alone. I enjoy working for my AA supervisor he is a hard working and good man. I don't mind AA women making more money then me, what does it truly matter? The ones who are bias based on race should get over thier ignorance.

JaliliMaster said...

J said...
@Jason

I never said or claimed it was a Black male phenomenon. Abuse, particularly sexual abuse, happens within every community with men. YOU are the other hand are actually attempting to make the claim that Black men are somehow less bad about it because the women they are sleeping with are "willing". So yes you are making outrageous claims and no your posts are not founded on solid logic. Also I would like to add how ridiculous it is to compare the abuse rate in a single mother household to the abuse rate within a two parent household since one is obviously more stable than the other no matter how you look at it. Wouldn't it make more sense to compare the abuse rate within a single father household to that of a single mother household? Yes, it would. But of course the amount of single Black male households in comparison to single Black female households is negligible, which is why you didn't think to compare it even though it makes for a much more logical comparison.

---------------------

I agree with everything you said. The fact that this fellow actually tried to excuse the abuse of little young black female children at the hands of black men by 'they were willing' just shows how truly despicable he is. As if that's not bad enough, he was even of the opinion that the sexual abuse of white and hispanic men was worse than that of bm becase atleast most of the bm victims were not boys.

So as far as he's concerned, the white and hispanic men that abuse children are worse than te bm that do the same because they abused more boys, while the bm abused more girls. One question jason. If bm sexually abused more boys, would you say that those boys were 'willing'. Afterall, we all know of the downlow phenomena in the black community, so maybe these boys liked it, eh! You may choose to only see sexual abuse as wrong if the perpretator is non-black, especially white, and if the victim is non-female, especially a black male. I however, do not hold this same view of yours. When you have daughters, wait, let them gt raped by a bm. If you are willing to excuse his behaviour, and somehow convince yourself that they were secretly 'willing' to be abused, or if you'll inly be bothered if it is your sons that are raped, then give me a call.

What a pillock!

Jason said...

@ JaliliMaster

This really goes to show how dishonest people can be, if not straight out ignorant. Nobody tried to excuse any abuse and I specifically stated that adult sex with underage adolescents is "VERY BAD". It is a criminal act and deserving of criminal punishment. So please read what's on the page as opposed to what is in your imagination.

I do believe that there are levels of wrong doing in life. A gang banger who shoots and kills a rival gang member gives me less outrage than a gangbanger who shoots an innocent, non-gang member in some sort of an initiation. Both are wrong. Both are murder. Both deserve prison time or capital punishment. But to me, the latter is far worse than the former.

Same for child molestation. A man who deals with post-pubescent "jailbait" is stupid, ignorant and a criminal deserving of incarceration and sex offender registration in most cases. A man who sexually molests an eight year old child takes this to another level. These men are even despised by other inmates within the prisons and have to be placed in protective custody.

Modern laws allow for adult sex with adolescents of a certain age within marriage. They don't allow for pedophilia under any circumstances. Why do you think that is?

And the fact that you still make refences to the "downlow phenomena" that has been shown to be a myth is good indication of how behind you are. You need to catch up.

knockoutchick said...

"And the fact that you still make refences to the "downlow phenomena" that has been shown to be a myth"

Good Lord! You can't even discuss homosexuality in the BC with out someone saying the numbers are exaggerated or a myth..or the best one.....homosexuality is just prevalent in the white community.

People are in such denial. The reason why people can't openly verify the numbers of men in the BC who are on the "down low" is because by definition it is something that is hidden or kept in secret.

But SOME folks do know. I could out two very well known black male celebrities in the next paragraph if I chose to do so, but it's not my desire to spread chatter about an identity issue these men have desparaetly tried to hide for YEARS!

Any BW who works in fashion, entertainment or design knows what I am talking about. No these men are not on the DL they are open, but you would be surprised at some of the men they "date".

foreverloyal said...

applause. You basically said it all.

Jason said...

J said...
Also I would like to add how ridiculous it is to compare the abuse rate in a single mother household to the abuse rate within a two parent household since one is obviously more stable than the other no matter how you look at it. Wouldn't it make more sense to compare the abuse rate within a single father household to that of a single mother household? Yes, it would.


Ok. Key on the capitalized, bolded parts.

http://www.theodora.com/teddy/newyork/fatherless.html

Social research data reveal that our blind reliance only on the nurturing value of mothers is inadequate and misplaced. According to the National Center for Health Statistics, a child living with his/her divorced mother, compared to a child living with both parents, is "375% more likely to need professional treatment for emotional or behavioral problems and is almost twice as likely to repeat a grade of school, is more likely to suffer chronic asthma, frequent headaches, and/or bedwetting, develop a stammer or speech defect, suffer from anxiety or depression, and be diagnosed as hyperactive."

HOWEVER, THESE AFFLICTIONS WERE SURPRISINGLY UNCOMMON IN THE 15% OF SINGLE-PARENT HOUSEHOLDS HEADED BY MEN. A study of all state child protective services agencies in the country - by the Children's Rights Coalition, a child advocacy and research organization in Austin, Texas - found that biological mothers physically abuse their children at twice the rate of biological fathers. The majority of the rest of the time, children are abused because of single-mothers' poor choices in the subsequent men in their lives. INCIDENCES OF ABUSE WERE ALMOST NON-EXISTENT IN SINGLE-FATHER-HEADED HOUSEHOLDS.


http://www.ilovemychildrentoo.org/myths.htm

The estimated total is 264 parental murders of children committed by single custodial mothers and 11 by single custodial fathers. There are roughly five times as many single custodial mothers as single custodial fathers.

Remember that 11 X 5 = 55, not 264.
Single mothers are nearly five times more likely to kill their children than single fathers.

Jason said...

knockoutchick said...
Good Lord! You can't even discuss homosexuality in the BC with out someone saying the numbers are exaggerated or a myth..or the best one.....homosexuality is just prevalent in the white community.


In other words, if homosexuality in the black community is discussed, all participants must agree with YOU since you ALLEGEDLY (and I stress "allegedly") know some black gay men who are secretly "dating" some well known black men. Absurdity at its highest.

The so called "down low phenomena" is some supposed noticeably higher than normal frequency of gay or bisexual black men to live heterosexual lives while secretly having sex with other men. The key is the "supposed noticeably higher than normal frequency."

Here is an excerp from a more reasoned view on the subject. Notice what has been capitalized and placed in bold:

http://www.slate.com/id/2161452/

The Down Low theory, as an overarching explanation for the spread of HIV, has been debunked several times over (see here and to greater effect here). Last week, an article in the Annals of Epidemiology took the measure of available research in the field and concluded that "the DL was neither new nor limited to blacks and sufficient data linking it to HIV/AIDS disparities currently are lacking." Researchers don't deny the existence of closeted black men in committed relationships with women or that some of these men infect their spouses. But they're skeptical about the Down Low as a primary explanation for the high rates of HIV among black women. AND THEY ALSO DON'T THINK BLACK MEN IN RELATIONSHIPS WITH WOMEN ARE MORE LIKELY THAN OTHER MEN TO HAVE CLOSETED SEX WITH MEN.

GoldenAh said...

>>Aimee wrote: black women face contempt from other blacks not only for their womanhood, but specifically because of their black womanhood.


Say it again.

Yup! Even when you write a blog about bw/wm and the issue may involve some ww, the topic and posts get dominated by and about bm.

How'd that happen? No matter what, if the topic is about bw - it is not important unless it becomes about bm. That's not healthy: bm/bw are not attached at the hip. We have separate issues, which should be discussed separately.

Yet some people have so much contempt and hostility to bw that they can't keep it to themselves. Therefore every single topic about bw/wm devolves into long posts about victimized bm.

Silly stuff.

J said...

@Jason

I know that you are not stupid (I hope you are not) so you should stop acting and responding as if you are. If you have a pool of 1 million women to choose from and a pool of 100 men to choose from and you calculate the numbers, rates, etc. of abuse in those families it is clearly going to be more for the women no matter how you slice it for the simple fact that they have so many more numbers and therefore more cases available to contribute to the statistics. I can guarantee you that no matter the stat you bring up, positive or negative,
in comparing single mothers to single fathers the single mothers will dominate it by ridiculous numbers. For instance the rate of college graduates coming from single mother homes will dominate the rate of those coming from single father homes. Does that mean single fathers are horrible and don't encourage their kids to educate themselves? No. Its just that no matter what since its normally women taking on the responsibility when it comes to single parenthood the numbers will always be dominated by them and can easily be misconstrued.

Jason said...

J, we are not talking about raw numbers. We are talking about percentages and rates. Statistically, there are roughly 5 times as many single mothers as there are single fathers. If the rate of abuse was the same, there should be 5 times as many single mothers who abuse their children as there are single fathers who abuse their children. But there are roughly 25 times as many abusive single mothers as there are abusive single fathers. Thus, single mothers abuse their children at a rate 5 times that of single fathers.

Also, we are not thinking of representative sampling. We are talking about the actual number of single fathers and single mothers based on census reports. So we are getting a highly reliable report on trends as opposed to the questionable reliability of sample sizes.

Census reports indicate that there are 10 million single mothers in the U.S. and 2.2 million single fathers. 10 million and 2.2 million are each more than adequate numbers to obtain reliable trends.

Plus, the flaw in your logic is that if there are more women to contribute to a statistic, there are likewise more women to contribute to the opposite of that statistic. In other words, if there are more women to contribute to the number of abusive women, there are more women to contribute to the number of non-abusive women. You yourself said that a large number contributes to both negative and positive statistics.

But this really only applies to raw numbers. When dealing with percentages and rates, it doesn't matter that a group has higher overall numbers unless the group with the lower number is two small to be reliable. You will not find any statistician who will view 2.2 million as a number too low to be reliable.

For instance the rate of college graduates coming from single mother homes will dominate the rate of those coming from single father homes.

No, the raw numbers will dominate. The rate will be determined by what percent of single mother homes have college graduates compared to what percent of single father homes have college graduates. Do you have that statistic?

J said...

Yes actually a statistician would say that is a silly comparison. There is no statistician that would honestly put mothers who make up 84% of the single parent population up against 16% of single fathers, which results in over 5 times as many single mothers in number than fathers, and then draw conclusions from that and actually believe they were reliable. I could understand if the numbers were even remotely close but they are not.

Look at what you typed, there are 25 times as many abusive single mothers than single fathers. Why? Because there are more than 5 times as many single mothers than single fathers! THAT is where the rates come from. Do you not understand that? Rates and percents and everything else don't just appear out of thin air, it comes from the NUMBERS. The same numbers which you continuously try to get me to disregard despite their immense dis-proportionality. Regardless of the fact that you won't admit it I think even you know how retarded your argument is. This is about as smart as comparing the rate at which Black men enter the corporate world to White men that enter the corporate world in an attempt to make Black men look horrible (because I'm sure if you pull up the numbers it would do just that) when Black men make up a mere 6% of the population and white men make up maybe 6 or 7 times that percentage.

I am aware that you have an agenda you are aiming for, which apparently appears to be to denigrate womankind, but you must at least be smart about your accusations.

Jason said...

Wow J, it's very simple. If there are 5 times as many single mothers as there are single fathers, and child abuse is found within both groups at the same rate, then there should be 5 times as many cases of abuse by single mothers as there are by single fathers.

Being that there are 25 times as many cases of single mother abuse as single father abuse, then that would mean that single mothers abuse children at five times the rate of single fathers. Point out specifically where I am wrong.

And yes, if there are 6 times as many white men as black men and lets say 12 times as many white men in the corporate world as black men, then that would mean that white men enter the corporate world at at twice the rate of black men.

You not liking someone's conclusions doesn't make those conclusions "retarded".

J said...

They are retarded.

A smart person knows that if you gather a group of 100 people from one group, and then a group of 10 from another group, compare their behaviors, and then start drawing the conclusion that the first group is worst than the second in a particular category the results are not reliable because of the sheer unbalance in numbers. You could present a child with this information and they would understand that number difference can and will create problems in collecting data and comparing it.

Like I said you are not being logical. I understand you are struggling to support an agenda by any means, but its failing. No one with a basic comprehension of math or sociology would compare a group of 100 to a group of 10 and say "A-HA! i see a reliable pattern here!"

Sandra77 said...

Jason, this blog is about black women, not about black men, and not about you. If you have so much to say on the topics that you are carping on, then please feel free to start your own blog. Those who are interested in your arguments can read your treatises there. Your arguments do not hold water, and do not deserve to take up half of the comments on this blog post. Go start your own blog please.

Jason said...

J, you're being willfully ignorant. First of all, you talk about grabbing a group of 100 from one group and a group of 10 from another. We are not grabbing any group from any group. We are talking about the entirety of both groups, those two groups being single mothers and single fathers. We are talking about census data statistics not on some representative group, but on every one within the group. That makes the data enormously reliable. If you had any statistical knowledge, you would know this. If you don't have any statistical knowledge, common sense will tell you this.

Second of all, even if we were talking about a representative group, 2.2 million is by any sense of intelligence a large enough number to get reliable results. 2.2 million random individuals will give you a more than reliable statistic. Your analogy of 10 people was absurd. And why didn't you make it 20 people since the rate of single mothers to single fathers is 5 to 1 and not 10 to 1. You seem to combine dishonesty with denial.

The notion of black men's disproportionate abusiveness of children has clearly been shown to be unfounded. Accept it and don't fall to ignorance level of Sandra77.

Jason said...

J, you're being willfully ignorant. First of all, you talk about grabbing a group of 100 from one group and a group of 10 from another. We are not grabbing any group from any group. We are talking about the entirety of both groups, those two groups being single mothers and single fathers. We are talking about census data statistics not on some representative group, but on every one within the group. That makes the data enormously reliable. If you had any statistical knowledge, you would know this. If you don't have any statistical knowledge, common sense will tell you this.

Second of all, even if we were talking about a representative group, 2.2 million is by any sense of intelligence a large enough number to get reliable results. 2.2 million random individuals will give you a more than reliable statistic. Your analogy of 10 people was absurd. And why didn't you make it 20 people since the rate of single mothers to single fathers is 5 to 1 and not 10 to 1. You seem to combine dishonesty with denial.

The notion of black men's disproportionate abusiveness of children has clearly been shown to be unfounded. Accept it and don't fall to ignorance level of Sandra77.

JaliliMaster said...

Jason, I want to reiterate what sandra77 posted. This blog post has a topic. Your posts have NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with the topic at hand. I know that you want everything bw talk about to revolve around bm, but we don't always get what we want. I hope no-one replies to this silly, mis-guided Jason fellow. He is an agent of ignorance! He is trying to derail our original discussion, PLEASE DON'T LET HIM!

Jason said...

Jalilimaster, please stop your bellyaching. I responded specifically to this point made in Aimee's original post:

"Should we only be partnering with other black women? Are we somehow "spitting in the faces" (as I have seen it phrased more than once) of our black female ancestors by being with BLACK MEN despite black racio-misogyny?"

I responded to this specific point made in the original post. Then someone responded to my point. I responded back. Someone else responded to my response. And on and on and on. That point diverged into a branching discussion, which is not uncommon.

Aimee's latest blog is very much about black men. I'm curious as to what you excuse will be up there. You already gave a silly unintelligent response. I'm sure you will give more.

JaliliMaster said...

Dude, don't be an idiot. I know it's very har for you, but atleast try. Aimee's blog latest blog is not about black men, contrary to what you'd so love to believe. It is about a bw, married to a wm, who is having some problems with some ww in her place of work. How you were somehow able to squeeze bm into that completely excapes me! So I repeat, this discussion on this post has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with bm!

Her latest post which referred to some comments made by Wesley Snipes is not about bm either. So dude, quit your stupidity. Then again, I'm sure it's already too ingrained!

Jason said...

Uhm, her latest blog is the Westley Snipes blog. You seem to have a problem with what is latest or not. And you call me stupid, LOL.

I was saying that you will find some excuse for me not participate in the blog about Snipes (the latest blog). Well, you actually didn't. You just said it is not about black men without giving a reason. I was right. You wouldn't give an intelligent response. At least you are consistent.

latest: newest, most recent, or most up-to-date.

JaliliMaster said...

Jason, are you being intentionally dense?

Her latest post(the one which referenced Wesley Snipes comments) IS NOT about black men. It is about comments which were attributed to Mr. Snipes and how BLACK WOMEN can start to view it from a different perspective in utilise it in their own lives. Get a clue, fool!

I know you wished She just got angry at Snipes and started calling him all sorts. Too bad she didn't, as it takes away another opportunity for you to turn the discussion into some rant about black men being universal victims. Once again, shut up!

Anonymous said...

I have got to say,I love this blog and surrounding myself with such intelligent thought provoking black women. I am at work right now, but will continue reading when I get home. I agree with so much on here and have felt this way for so long. So happy to see I am not alone. BTW my name is Shon.

rebecca said...

I Remember, I Remember
(1)

I remember, I remember

The house where I was born,

the little window where the sun

Came peeping in at morn:

He never came a wink too soon,

Nor brought too long a day,

But now, I often wish the night

Had borne my breath away!

(2)

I remember, I remember

The roses, red and white,

The vi'lets, and the lily-cups,

Those flowers made of light!

The lilacs where the robin built,

And where my brother set

The laburnum on his birthday,

The tree is living yet!

(3)

I remember, I remember

Where I was used to swing

and thought the air must rush as fresh

To swallows on the wing;

My spirit flew in feathers then,

That is so heavy now,

And summer pools could hardly cool

The fever on my brow!

(4)

I remember, I remember

The fir trees dark and high;

I used to think their slender tops

Were close against the sky;

It was a childish ignorance,

But now 'tis little joy

To know I'm farther off from heav'n

Than when I was a boy!

~~~by runescape money

モバゲー said...

モバゲーより確実に逢えるスタービーチ♪今まで遊びをしてこなかった人でも100%であいが堪能できます。理想の異性をGETするなら当サイトにお任せください

高松宮記念 said...

高松宮記念の最新予想!オッズ、厳選買い目は?!レースの鍵を握る馬は裏情報を特別公開

スタービーチ said...

聖なる場所スタービーチで愛を育てませんか。メル友や恋人、セクフレなど貴方が理想としている関係がスタビでは築けちゃいます。素敵なであいから発展させていきませんか

競馬予想 said...

2010 競馬予想 各厩舎・調教師から届けられる最強の馬券情報を限定公開!本物の オッズ 表はコレだ

友達 said...

よく「彼氏いるでしょ~?」って言われるけど、イナイよσ(‾^‾)トモダチ集めてホームパーティーなんかしたりするのがマイブームでして♪♪好きな人ができてもハズかしくて告れない…(>_< )しゅりのココロをゲットしてぇ~☆コドモっぽい性格だから年上でお兄ちゃんみたいな人がタイプだよ(*^m^*) h-13-i-12@docomo.ne.jp

スタービーチ said...

遂に復活!!スタービーチで素敵なであいをお楽しみ下さい

オナニー said...

今や女の子のオナニーは常識。しかもお金を払って実際にオナニーを見てもらい、恥ずかしがるのや褒められるのが興奮のツボ!そんな彼女達とオナメールやHなことしてみませんか

モバゲー said...

誰でも楽しめるモバゲーの新感覚コミュニティー!ネットでもうひとつの生活を始めませんか

セレブラブ said...

セレブラブなリッチセレブリティ達のアダルトコミュニティーサイト!お金と時間に優雅なセレブ女性達はアダルトコミュで男性との秘密交際を楽しんでいるのです

友達 said...

変わってるって言われるけどわりといい人だよ(笑)!!お笑い好きな人だったら話盛り上がりそうだねO(≧▽≦)O 色んなことに興味深々でおっちょこちょいだからそばで支えてくれる人募集中σ(゜-^*)自分の年齢的に年下の男の子はアウトだからごめんね(*_ _)人 u-3-ummm52@docomo.ne.jp

スタービーチ said...

満を持してのスタービーチ復活劇!!ここから刻まれる、新たな一コマ。スタービーチがあなたの歴史を生み出します

スタービーチ said...

【緊急】突如として消えたスタービーチが復活!長い年月をかけて不死鳥の如く蘇ったスタビをお楽しみください【緊急】

人生の値段チェッカー said...

最近の不景気は、今一度自分の人生を見直すのに良い時期が来てます。こんな時代だからこそ人生の値段チェッカーで、人生の勝ち組に成る為のアドバイスを貰いませんか?ぱっと思い立った時こそ人生の分かれ道ですよ

桜花賞 said...

今年も桜の季節に三冠レースの初戦が始まります。このレースで勝ち馬券を当てて、次のオークスに続ける為の、験担ぎの意味も込めて桜花賞必勝の情報を手に入れよう

モバゲー said...

モバゲーより遊べるスタービーチ!ここで自分好みの女の子を探してGETしちゃおう

スタービーチ said...

新しくなったスタービーチは新しいであいのカタチを提案します★ あなたに出逢いたい人がここにいます

モバゲー said...

モバゲーよりすごいスタービーチで最高の恋をしよう!!素敵な仲間を探したい!!信頼出来る友達が欲しい…理想のパートナーと出会って理想の恋をしたい…そんなアナタに最も最適なスタビで恋の幸せ掴みとりましょう♪

モテる度チェッカー said...

今迄モテたのに最近イマイチな人、これからもモテる気配の無い人、モテて人生変えたい人、一度モテる度チェッカーを体験しませんか。良くある出合いサイトにリンクされるのでは無く、親身なアドバイス結果が出ます。これで人生が変わった人がいますよ

皐月賞 said...

皐月賞・競馬予想!各厩舎・調教師から届けられる最強の馬券情報を限定公開!本物のオッズ表はコレだ

モバげー said...

モバげーとスタビ、異性とのであいを探すならやはりこの2つのサイトは外せない。Mixiよりも遊べるサイトで楽しもう

セフレ said...

セフレ掲示板で大人の恋愛をしてみませんか?割り切ったセフレと快楽のみを求めた恋愛をしてくださいませ

出会い said...

数多くある出会い系の中でも簡単に出会えるのはココ!女の子の登録人数が多いのであなたの地域のカワイイ娘もゲット出来ちゃうんです

スタービーチ said...

新しくリニューアルオープンしたスタービーチでは、新しいであいのカタチを提案します☆日本で一番有名なであい系、スタビならあなたに出逢いたい人が必ず見つかります

エッチ度チェッカー said...

合コンの必須うアイテムと言えば、エッチ度チェッカーと言うぐらいの知名度です。エッチ度をチェックして、気になる娘と親しくなるチャンスをつかもう。奥手の方でもその日の内にお持ち帰り出来るように、診断結果にはアドバイスも

スタービーチ said...

似非スタービーチサイトが増えて来たので、愛好家で作ったサイトで口コミだけのヒッソリ運営では、出合いを求めてる方が辿り付かない現状を見かねて少し宣伝します。間違っても似非サイトには登録しないで、コチラのサイトで素敵な出合いを求めて下さい

スタービーチ said...

スタービーチで友達探し!出逢い広場は簡単な無料登録するだけで使い放題でメンバー同士、気軽にメッセージのやり取りが出来るよ!女の子と出逢いのチャンスがあるかも!?詳しくはTOPページにアクセスしてみよう

スタービーチ said...

釦覀꟣莑볣莈諣莼鋦躢鷣膆臨ꪰ苣膌藣膡飣膳鿣芹뿣莼鏣莼臣膮ꧦ뒻臯벁诣莥볣芹뿣莼鏣莼臣膧ꫤ붓鏣膮꟣膂蓣芒鿦蒟韣膦诣膕

さいきん、お仕事が said...

お友達な状態です!!楽しいメールしたいので、はるによっかたらメールしてください♪ lovuv-555@docomo.ne.jp