Tuesday, July 27, 2010

Clinging to the "Black Card"

In response to my last post, I wrote a response that addressed the unfortunate phenomenon of black women desperately struggling to hold on to their “black cards.” This struggle is typified by black women who deep inside recognize that, on a practical level, they must explore their options romantically, professionally, educationally, and in every other manner; but who emotionally , cannot let go of their attachment to the “community.” As I noted in my post, too often I encounter BW who date/mate IR on the "downlow," but who are still desperately trying to hold onto their "black cards.” Despite the fact that they sometimes form romantic attachments to non-black men because they must, since these are the only viable mates available, they go out of their way to emphasize their love and preference for "the black man." They idealize "black love," and even though they often seek the highest quality non-black mates for THEMSELVES, they encourage other black women to "hold out" for their black knights in shining armor, reassuring these dupes that their black princes will come if only they lose weight, stop talking so loud, stop being so aggressive, stop pursuing higher education and threatening professional accomplishments, stop having babies out of wedlock, etc. They are militantly "pro-black," except when it comes to advancing the interests of black women and children being victimized and exploited at the hands of DBRBM. Then, all of a sudden, they are full of excuses, and want to return the conversation back to the big, bad White Man. They are consistent suckers for the bad poetry of DBRBM hypocrites who rhapsodize about "Nubian Princesses" they wouldn't touch with a ten-foot pole, and are adept at looking the other way when these warriors for the community parade their white-skinned women through police brutality protest organizing committees or Juneteenth picnics.
These women are deceptively distinguishable from the obvious mules who promote the explicit “nothing but a black man” agenda. They will reasonably note the numbers of black men who are unemployed and unemployable, in prison, in interracial relationships, and who simply refuse to marry black women and father black children; they express empathy for the multitudes of black women who, as a result, cannot find worthy mates and form healthy families as a result. Unlike the conspicuous mammies, they will often pursue professional success, healthy families, viable communities, and worthy mates for themselves, even while continuing to espouse the “black power” party line for other black women. Much of their venom is reserved for black women who are insufficiently supportive of black men, since it is of utmost importance to them that the “community” recognize that, regardless of their personal choices, they are super duper black, and they know that “blackness”=endorsing any and all black male behavior, no matter how evil or destructive. The last thing they want is to be labeled as “bougie,” “acting white,” or a “sell out.”
The conflicted nature of these “sisters” makes them incredibly dangerous to black women who are in the process of escaping the pathology of the “community.” Since they don’t look or act like the typical mule, they can initially seem like worthy allies in the effort to build new and improved lives. Unfortunately, their seductive facades will encourage many proud black women to welcome them into their lives, where their poison will undermine your positive efforts to move forward with self respect. Always remember: you were born black, you live black, and nothing can undermine your blackness. You don’t have to prove your authenticity to anyone. And anyone who demands that you do so is not your friend.

41 comments:

Anonymous said...

Are not black women the majority of the black community? How can black women reject something that they are the majority of? They would in essence be rejecting themselves.

Faith said...

I just had an experience where some women on a radio show wantedto critcize a blog post I'd written w/o offering me chance to rebut. They claimed to be about empowering BW but it was the same ol' white hegemony fight. Also some other BW who speak about empowerment don't want to be equally as transparent in their own behaviors as they're expecting others to be.

Aimee said...

Anonymous said...
Are not black women the majority of the black community? How can black women reject something that they are the majority of? They would in essence be rejecting themselves.

But WHY do BW and black children form the bulk of the black community? Where are the men? Have they formed some alternative, functional community that they can point to as a successful model for BW to emulate? Or have they simply abandoned their own failed creation, leaving the women and children behind to fend for themselves?

daphne said...

Hi Aimee - I tried to comment on the previous post, but I think it went to the proverbial "Sock Drawer Heaven," never to return!

Anyway, welcome back and I hope you are well.

The conflicted nature of these “sisters” makes them incredibly dangerous to black women who are in the process of escaping the pathology of the “community.”

Agreed! That's why I feel it's not enough to move out of certain black 'hoods. Black women, particularly those who formerly believed the hype and are now living with open eyes and ears, really have to make themselves inaccessible to those with this damaged thinking (and to be sure, I think the BWE blogoshpere is relatively small compared to the wider, offline group of blacks, although it is growing). And that COULD mean the educated women one may work with, and even those who may be interracially/interculturally married or dating. I've learned, the hard way, not to assume anything based on the superficial.

There is some disturbing subtext in a concept I've seen trumpeted a few times in the blogosphere:

dark(er)-skinned black women opening up to non-black men as mates because black men don't want them or pursue them.

On the surface, it makes perfect sense. On the other hand, I've often wondered how many of these black women would change their minds if there was a collective shift in black men and their coloristic preferences. And this advice never really addresses the DBR-ism that is apparent among the collective. So, while colorism is real and should be discussed, do you REALLY want a black man who doesn't discriminate based on skin tone, but has all those other issues? It's not as though lighter-skinned black women are somehow shielded from the aforementioned issues just because of the difference in skin tone. But the subtext, to me at least, seems to be that some (many?) black women would forget about the rainbow of men, in a heartbeat, if "the brothas came back."

I don't care if the "brothas" come back - unless they come correct. Stay in your lane unless you're prepared to compete with all other men in the global village.

Aimee said...

Hey daphne! So good to hear from you!

daphne said...
So, while colorism is real and should be discussed, do you REALLY want a black man who doesn't discriminate based on skin tone, but has all those other issues? It's not as though lighter-skinned black women are somehow shielded from the aforementioned issues just because of the difference in skin tone. But the subtext, to me at least, seems to be that some (many?) black women would forget about the rainbow of men, in a heartbeat, if "the brothas came back."

I don't care if the "brothas" come back - unless they come correct. Stay in your lane unless you're prepared to compete with all other men in the global village.
!

This is such a crucial insight, daphne. There is this implicit suggestion that certain BW don't "need" to look outside the community, because they can "get" a BM. Yet these same supposedly "priviledged" BW are still overwhelmingly single, still mired in poverty, babymamhood, crime-ridden hoods, etc. What exactly are they "getting"? Why do we insist that somehow these sisters have achieved some kind of "prize" status that should preclude them from seeking something better, from deserving more? The sad reality is that these sisters are being bamboozled into being left behind to "hold down" the community, while their purported "desirability" is based on nothing more than BM settling for them because they have been historically forbidden access to white and other non-black women that they long for. Now that that such access has been granted, the "brothas" are running for the ever-paler hills like runaway slaves. Why should ANY BW settle for that? One of the most destructive forces of racio-misogyny is the way in which it has pitted BW against each other, when we should really all be striving for the same goals--healthy, positive, constructive lifestyles for ourselves and our families. Once we rid ourselves of the sick pathology of competition for DBRBM who are not even close to being worthy of fighting over, we will see so much improvement in our collective interaction!

Anonymous said...

Aimee. There are 2 million more black women alive in America than black men. So most of the black adults in the back community are female. So the question stands.

Anonymous said...

I believe once we stop putting up with mess from DBRBM, they will start acting better; maybe not for you but for your daughter. Also DBR men come in ALL COLORS just vet your men carefully and don't sleep with any until marriage today. If he doesn't like that? fine! and move on

Aimee said...

Faith said...
I just had an experience where some women on a radio show wantedto critcize a blog post I'd written w/o offering me chance to rebut. They claimed to be about empowering BW but it was the same ol' white hegemony fight. Also some other BW who speak about empowerment don't want to be equally as transparent in their own behaviors as they're expecting others to be.

Sadly, I don't find this even slightly surprising. The critics who troll BWE blogs and seek to confront escaped BW are incredibly cagey when it comes to open dialouge and honest debate. What response would they really have to your reasoned arguments and carefully constructed questions addressed to THEM? "90% of black men are married to black women!" They're still trotting out that discredited mess, because they have nothing else. Their only other option would be to resort to the politics of personal destruction, the way they have with Debra Dickerson--they're eating up that situation like a bucket of KFC, because to focus on the real problems of the "community" they claim to love so much would be much too painful. Instead, they focus their energy on attacking anyone who they perceive as critiqueing that community. Do you think they ever ask themselves why that is?

Aimee said...

Anonymous said...

Aimee. There are 2 million more black women alive in America than black men. So most of the black adults in the back community are female. So the question stands.

There are also more white women than white men in America--and more Asian women than Asian men. The only group in this country with more men than women are Hispanics. There are more women than men in virtually every group on the planet. Yet, in every group OTHER than the black American community, it is men who are the leaders, men who are held responsible for the functionality, goals, and achievements of their communities.

So MY question stands: where are the men? If there are 100 women and children and 2 men, what are those men doing? What role are they playing? If 1 of those men has left, where did he go, and why? If 1 of those men has stayed, what part is he playing in this community that everyone agrees is in desperate need?

Anonymous said...

But the subtext, to me at least, seems to be that some (many?) black women would forget about the rainbow of men, in a heartbeat, if "the brothas came back."


Who cares? No disrespect but it looks like you have a lot of time on your hands to worry about a hypothetical like this...

Anonymous said...

There is a new movie coming out with a black woman whose husband leaves her because he does not want to have kids with her and then she see him out in the mall a year later with a white woman and baby. urrrrrgh! Then Michael Baisden is shooting a documentary about black women. But these mammies loooove Michael Baisden!!! And he does nothing but make fools of them. One thing that black women dont realize is that all of these black men have a thing out for black women. Why? Because they could not get the pretty girl years ago. These are the brothers who act like they are neutral and love the sisters. Michael Baisden often speaks about when sisters would not give him the time of day because he did not have money. Brothers hold stuff like that in their memory bank. Even black guys who have not necesarily had bad relationships with sisters. They always think back to when they could not get the sisters that they wanted so now this mass exodus is REVENGE for them.

Student of Khadijah said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

Another reason to not worry so much about the black card. Such a sad story...



http://www.bvblackspin.com/2010/07/28/marriage-counselor-stabbed-to-death-by-her-husband/

Anonymous said...

daphnie, many darker skinned black women were not wanted by black men back in the day. I'M GLAD WHITE GUYS KNOW THAT 'THE BLACKER THE BERRY, THE SWEETER THE JUICE. I see a lot of dark sistas with white men all the time.

Seraph said...

"So MY question stands: where are the men? If there are 100 women and children and 2 men, what are those men doing? What role are they playing? If 1 of those men has left, where did he go, and why? If 1 of those men has stayed, what part is he playing in this community that everyone agrees is in desperate need?" - Aimee

It seems as though you're claiming the responsibility for the imbalance between African American men and women ...should belong to African-American men. Perhaps they share some blame, certainly. But, it's intellectually dishonest to claim that this is all their fault.

I know how fashionable it is to castigate African American men for the ills of our community and give a pass to "the system", "the man" (or whatever you want to identify it as these days). But the truth is the truth. Slavery, Jim Crow ...it all messed everyone in the African American community up.

This was the truth back then ...and it will remain the truth forever withstanding. Even when it's no longer politcally correct to suggest.

The reason for the imbalance is two-fold. African American men are either in jail, or African American men are dead. That's it.

Most AA men in prison are there because of mandatory sentencing measures of drug laws (see The Rockerfeller Drug Laws).

According to the Rockerfeller drug laws, getting caught with or selling 20 oz. of crack cocaine (also marijuana) on your person (or being in the vicinity of a person with crack cocaine on themselves) ...that'll get you 15 to life.

So, it's essentially equivalent to second-degree murder. Selling and using crack is definitely a deathly serious offense and should be treated as such. But, let's look at it this way.

How often will we find crack cocaine being sold or even used in White communities? Hardly ever. This ALONE contributes to the high number of Black men AND Black women being incarcerated. Why wasn't "meth" included as a part of the sentencing measures?

Let's not get into the Black men and women incarcerated who didn't do anything to deserve being there ...except being unfortunate enough to be next to somebody they knew who had crack on their persons.

Drugs are also connected to the grotesque death rate among Black men, but my post has gotten too long already. So, if you come away with nothing from this comment ...just TRY to understand that the situation that our community is in? It's much more complex than just, it's "Black men's fault" or it's "Black women's fault (see Feminism)".

Not only is that premise false, it also gets us nowhere. Fast.

caligirl94117 said...

Thanks for this post! I recently had a conversation with a close bw friend who has been trying to push me to frequent black events in my efforts to mingle and meet a marriageable man. I tried to explain to her that I'd prefer to go to events where people are engaged in interests and activities that I enjoy rather than those based solely on race. She was frustrated that most of my interests (books, museums, foreign language, running) would lead to events that have fewer black people.

She went so far as to ask me to do outreach to increase the number of black people who come to my current French conversation group. She argued that professional black people who share my interests don't want to go to "white" groups because they feel they can't be themselves or have to prove themselves, so I have to put something together. NOT in a MILLION years will I invest my time in this way!

She has made it her mission to redeem black men to me since I told her that black men tend to approach me in aggressive ways that make me uncomfortable.

I have NEVER been a " black community" person, but an individual. Thanks for restating what I have always known, I don't have to prove my blackness.

Her conversation made me cry because now I know we aren't going to be as close as I'd thought we were. She wants to push her longing for a black community onto my life. I've been there done that. Those who need to prove blackness or prefer voluntary segregation are damaging to my well being. Making me prove my blackness is a deal breaker!

Anonymous said...

So MY question stands: where are the men? If there are 100 women and children and 2 men, what are those men doing? What role are they playing? If 1 of those men has left, where did he go, and why? If 1 of those men has stayed, what part is he playing in this community that everyone agrees is in desperate need?

You never answered the original question. In essence, you answered a question with a question and one unrelated to the question that you avoided answering.

Plus, your question is vague. There are millions of black men with millions of different personalities and attitudes. Unfortunately, the ones who are of the most quality are the ones who are most overlooked. It is the fools who are fathering the majority of black children because, for some reason, black women commonly find them to be the most appealing.

daphne said...

Who cares? No disrespect but it looks like you have a lot of time on your hands to worry about a hypothetical like this...

Alas, the thinly veiled insult!

It's not hypothetical if some women have stated, "I started dating non-BM because black men didn't want me." To be clear, I think black women are entitled to love and devotion, and if they find it with a non-BM, then fantastic. But colorism isn't the whole picture, and never has been (especially since colorism isn't exclusive to black people). More importantly, there is the implicit assumption that only certain black women are entitled to seek love across racial lines, usually based on skin tone discrimination from black men, and I'm trying to understand how that's not as damaging as someone telling black women to hold out for a black man.

A damaged man who can appreciate the full spectrum of black women's beauty is still a damaged man. And any woman, regardless of skin shade, has the right to want a man who will love, respect, and cherish her. Unfortunately, these are SOME of the black women I've observed telling other women to "hold it down" for black men, while they've married a non-BM. Excuse me? I don't think so.

And when they are pressed for why they're with a non-BM, it's usually because "black men generally weren't interested." And that's fine, but how dare these women try to discourage other black women from seeking the best quality mate?

No one really talks about this, but it can be insidious. As Aimee stated:

Always remember: you were born black, you live black, and nothing can undermine your blackness. You don’t have to prove your authenticity to anyone.

Aimee said...

Seraph said...

"So MY question stands: where are the men? If there are 100 women and children and 2 men, what are those men doing? What role are they playing? If 1 of those men has left, where did he go, and why? If 1 of those men has stayed, what part is he playing in this community that everyone agrees is in desperate need?" - Aimee

It seems as though you're claiming the responsibility for the imbalance between African American men and women ...should belong to African-American men. Perhaps they share some blame, certainly. But, it's intellectually dishonest to claim that this is all their fault.


My question was not an effort to parse blame at all. It was in response to the assertion that black women are the majority of the community, and thus can only reject that community by rejecting themselves, i.e., that the community is in some sense the creation of black women. What I want to know is if the community does indeed consist solely or primarily of black women and children, why is that? In no way do I reject the reality of white supremacy as an ideology, or of the practical impact of slavery, jim crow, or a racist criminal justice system. But just as it would be intellectually dishonest to say that the absence of black men from the community is all their fault, it would be equally dishonest to pretend that their absence is completely involuntary, or that the same power relationships that shape the way that black men have responded to the pressures of white society shape the way they have responded to the dependence needs of the black family and the internal leadership needs of the black community. No, they are not unrelated, but they are also not entirely the same. And we have to be truthful enough to admit that the answer is not always, simply, "the system." Black men are not simply gone because the white man is forcing them away. And ultimately, the bigger question for black women is what difference does it make? What lives do you want for yourselves, and how can you best achieve those lives?

Anonymous said...

comon aimee

Isn't dana sounding strangely like the 'black woman is always at fault' personality.

Dana, Tyrone or is it Pookie, they cant hide it because it comes out in the end, this their burning desire to aim a kick at black women by twisting every theory and study to prove bw are sooo unworthy.

In addition note they are always prefacing their comments with, 'interesting post...' Tyrone knows he cant say, 'I don’t agree with this post,' without his cover being blown so he uses the non compliment 'Interesting post...' to safely express his contempt for it!

Watch another sign that it is really Mr Tyrone; the jumping to far fetched conclusions from unrelated points and unrelated studies as in his last conclusion that bw breast feeding rates means they are non-nurturing evil B&**s

Dana = Tyrone you are just sooo transparent!

Seraph said...

"My question was not an effort to parse blame at all. It was in response to the assertion that black women are the majority of the community, and thus can only reject that community by rejecting themselves, i.e., that the community is in some sense the creation of black women. What I want to know is if the community does indeed consist solely or primarily of black women and children, why is that? In no way do I reject the reality of white supremacy as an ideology, or of the practical impact of slavery, jim crow, or a racist criminal justice system." - Aimee

Hello again, Aimee.

Ah, I see. Well... Black women make up the majority of the community, simply because they're female. White women also make up the majority in their own community. So on and so forth. It's a survival trait.

The absence of Black men in the Black community is the most complex of situations (especially when we try to find the origins). The tricky thing to remember when trying to interpret the cause is that ...there isn't any one thing contributing to this absence. There's a myriad of stuff going on.

So yes. It's Jim Crow and slavery. But, it's also a sense of self-distancing and dejection on the part of Black men toward the community they share with Black women. Even further... it's also a feeling of naive passivity on the part of Black women themselves.

At the end of the day, it's very healthy to be able to acknowledge this... so that Black men and Black women can heal together. I know the theme on a lot of BWE blogs is "I don't want a Black man / Where are the non-Black men at?" (not saying that's the case here... I'm not really sure). But as long as Black boys and Black girls are being born, the community is going to exist.

So, to be able to be at peace with one another (BM and BW) would be a beautiful thing. Not even necessarily on a romantic level. Yes, the romantic level is included but more simply ...on a level of content.

Oshun said...

@ Seraph

Why is peace necessary? Its a waste of time. For peace to occur both parties have to be at the table. BM are not coming to the table. BM are gone and have been a long time.

Anonymous said...

And while ww outnumber wm in their "community", the MEN have worked diligently to PROVIDE for and PROTECT.

Bm do the EXACT OPPOSITE in mind numbing numbers. Anyone declaring otherwise is a liar or an idiot liar.

My survival, as a black woman, has absolutely NOTHING to do with bm. I urge other bw not to wait for a "coming together" of genders to focus on their immediate necessities either. All signs indicate, no one is coming. LOL!

Seraph said...

"Why is peace necessary? Its a waste of time. For peace to occur both parties have to be at the table. BM are not coming to the table. BM are gone and have been a long time." (Oshun)

Oshun, hello. Peace is necessary because as long as Black girls and boys continue to be brothers and sisters to each other... they're going to be spending a LOT of time together (and with other Black boys and girls). It's always going to be this way barring something intentional to forcefully separate the two.

If Black children are going to be spending so much time together, then peace is not an option ...it's the only thing to have.

If all we've known about Black men was what we saw on television and read in the papers, I'd have thought they all left too.

The truth is that I don't remember the last time I've seen some good, family oriented Black men (with their Black wives) being shown in a positive light in the media.

Everybody Hates Chris showed it. Very, very funny show!

Heck! Good, family oriented Black men don't even show themselves in a positive light. They don't talk to their boys about their own happy marriages. They don't talk about how their kid just got an "A" on his report, or how their daughter danced in the school ballet.

They don't pat themselves on the back like the "players" do. They kind of just do what they do from behind the scenes. I'm really not sure why this happens, maybe it's a personality trait. Maybe they don't find it necessary to speak up on those things ...but it's to their detriment.

The more silent these good, family-oriented Black men are (even though they are taking care of business for their families), the more Black women will continue to believe that ALL Black men have willingly left the community.

Aimee said...

Anonymous said...
comon aimee

Isn't dana sounding strangely like the 'black woman is always at fault' personality.


Very much so. I suspected as much from its original post, but I gave it the benefit of the doubt. But once it started posting statistics about the relative IQ of the offspring of BM/WW relationships, I knew we were dealing with a troll. Why would he think we could possibly care less about such a "fact"? Are supposed to be sad, upset, feel inferior? Come running back to our rightful DBRBM owners, begging for forgiveness? Or just commit collective seppuku? In any case, I like to give those types just enough rope to hang themselves. As I noted in the comments to my prior post, the very fact that they feel compelled to come here at all is in itself fascinating and revealing.

PioneerValleyWoman said...

Hi, Aimee! Glad to see you are back. I was out of town for a while, so I was reading but not responding.

I noticed:

Oshun, hello. Peace is necessary because as long as Black girls and boys continue to be brothers and sisters to each other... they're going to be spending a LOT of time together (and with other Black boys and girls). It's always going to be this way barring something intentional to forcefully separate the two.

My reply:

Black boys and girls are only going to be brothers and sisters to each other as long as they have biological ties to each other and as long as they as adults claim kinship to each other based upon a real sense of "family," not the artificial, "just because we are black, we are family, etc."

I claim kinship and brotherhood/sisterhood only with those who have those real connections with me, biologically or socially.

Claiming kinship without those connections is what gets too much black women in trouble, so there are some who are beginning to reject it--"brothers" who do not treat black women as a brother would a sister then demand special favors as though they are "brothers," or black women refuse to think of their own self-interest in dealing with "brothers," because they want to "keep the peace" and unity that is built upon their exploitation, as Aimee has been speaking of here.

Oshun said...

@ Seraph

None of that is true. Black girls and boys are not "brothers" and sisters. Nothing BM, including black boys - do says so. I would never raise my daughters with that mindset. It is akin to murder. Black girls and boys do not have to spend time together. There is no amount of money you could pay me to raise any children I may have around black boys especially fatherless ones. That would be murder.

Again the burden is on BW to do something, positive, beneficial, helpful...

PioneerValleyWoman said...

Heck! Good, family oriented Black men don't even show themselves in a positive light. They don't talk to their boys about their own happy marriages. They don't talk about how their kid just got an "A" on his report, or how their daughter danced in the school ballet.

My observations:

Oh, but they do so, amongst those who count, their true "brothers and sisters," whether by family or by community of choice, meaning those people carefully chosen to be considered "family."

They know who they are and what they must do, take care of their families, and they want to have nothing to do with the numbskull types.

If they feel no need to prove anything to anyone, why should black women go running around trying to prove something on the behalf of those who don't want or need to have anything proven, or save us, trying to prove the numbskulls are really okay? Or again, save us, trying to rescue the numbskulls?

By claiming kinship or by wailing for the numbskull ones to "do right," ie., as Jill Scott recently did in Essence magazine, black women are only wasting their time and looking pitiful--no one is doing what they are doing, even if arguably, as has been suggested other good black men are harmed by the negative images. Good black men don't care, so why should black women?

Seraph said...

"Black boys and girls are only going to be brothers and sisters to each other as long as they have biological ties to each other and as long as they as adults claim kinship to each other based upon a real sense of 'family,' not the artificial, 'just because we are black, we are family, etc.'" (PioneerValleyWoman)

"@ Seraph

None of that is true. Black girls and boys are not "brothers" and sisters. Nothing BM, including black boys - do says so. I would never raise my daughters with that mindset. It is akin to murder. Black girls and boys do not have to spend time together. There is no amount of money you could pay me to raise any children I may have around black boys especially fatherless ones. That would be murder."
(Oshun)

When typing, it's easy for things to get lost in translation. No. I'm not talking about "kinship" (even though what PioneerValleyWoman says makes sense, yet I still must disagree).

When I said, "peace is necessary because as long as Black girls and boys continue to be brothers and sisters to each other..., I literally meant "brothers and sisters". Not "brothers" and "sisters". They don't exist. I don't do the "black slang"... thing.

If some of you here do, do that... I apologize if I seem particularly haughty about it.

So yes. Actually, I believe all of that is true.

@Oshun: Oshun, unless you have devised some way where Black women can control for the gender of their children ...a Black girl is going to have a Black brother (biological) eventually.

Don't be too discouraged. I'm sure those Black boys will be killed or locked up before they'd even get a chance to see your daughters. Especially the Black boys without fathers, of course.

With any luck, in the near future, Black boys will be off of the streets as soon as they get their birth certificates signed.

@PioneerValleyWoman: I'm not fond of any kinds of "kinship". Racial kinship would be necessary, I think. But only because everyone else is doing it and it'd be silly for Black men and Black women to be the only ones not to do that with each other.

The thing is, even if they wanted to, there aren't enough Black men to form "kinships" with. So, "Black kinship" might be a thing of the past at this point. It can't be done.

We can't say that good Black men don't care. We don't honestly know how they feel about all of this. They hardly talk in the first place. It's just like with, good Black women. The Sherri Shephards get all of the attention, while the Angela Bassetts are "nowhere to be found".

--And Black women shouldn't wait to do anything. More Black women need to live as soon as possible.

PioneerValleyWoman said...

Seraph:

@PioneerValleyWoman: I'm not fond of any kinds of "kinship". Racial kinship would be necessary, I think. But only because everyone else is doing it and it'd be silly for Black men and Black women to be the only ones not to do that with each other.

The thing is, even if they wanted to, there aren't enough Black men to form "kinships" with. So, "Black kinship" might be a thing of the past at this point. It can't be done.

My reply:

I'm glad you noticed this; if anything, your observation here explains the critique that followed your response.

Black women have been living as though on fantasy island, as though there is "kinship" with those who have not proven it, and who don't deserve it, only to be played by so-called "brothers."

Kinship works for others because it is part and parcel of their existence and community. The men know they have obligations and responsibilities to the women of their group--protection and care; the women reciprocate with their loyalty to the men and the group flourishes. That has been the basis of patriarchy, the way in which men prove themselves as leaders worthy of women's trust and kinship.

Black women, if anything, are required to prove their loyalty first without the men having to prove their worth. They are to prove loyal to the men's needs and interests regardless of what.

So for example, I recognize the kinship of those within my network of family and friends. I recognize the kinship of those other black male colleagues and acquaintances who have proven themselves to be kin.

I don't claim kinship to random black men with whom I have no connection. I don't go around trying to make eye contact with random black men on the street. I will, however, if I'm in a social, ie., work-related environment, recognize the possibility of kinship with the black men I see/meet. But they have to earn the kinship. It is not a given.

You noted:

We can't say that good Black men don't care. We don't honestly know how they feel about all of this. They hardly talk in the first place. It's just like with, good Black women. The Sherri Shephards get all of the attention, while the Angela Bassetts are "nowhere to be found".

--And Black women shouldn't wait to do anything. More Black women need to live as soon as possible.

My reply:

But does it even matter whether the good black men care? What can they do on a large scale? Start their own movement? The civil rights movement ended along time ago, and the last "movement" to address these questions didn't result in a large-scale movement, ie. the Million Man March.

However, some men might be living it on a day to day basis, the caring. All that matters is whether they are doing anything to help matters? Not all men are going to go out there and try to mentor the numbskulls, and they shouldn't. In the end, the question is, will they stand up for black women and girls and support them? Will they raise their sons to do the same?

It is simply a matter of keeping close, those black men who already are "kin," and recognizing the possibility for kinship among men who might not be black. As you said, black women can't wait.

PioneerValleyWoman said...

Seraph:

@PioneerValleyWoman: I'm not fond of any kinds of "kinship". Racial kinship would be necessary, I think. But only because everyone else is doing it and it'd be silly for Black men and Black women to be the only ones not to do that with each other.

The thing is, even if they wanted to, there aren't enough Black men to form "kinships" with. So, "Black kinship" might be a thing of the past at this point. It can't be done.

My reply:

I'm glad you noticed this; if anything, your observation here explains the critique that followed your response.

Black women have been living as though on fantasy island, as though there is "kinship" with those who have not proven it, and who don't deserve it, only to be played by so-called "brothers."

Kinship works for others because it is part and parcel of their existence and community. The men know they have obligations and responsibilities to the women of their group--protection and care; the women reciprocate with their loyalty to the men and the group flourishes. That has been the basis of patriarchy, the way in which men prove themselves as leaders worthy of women's trust and kinship.

Black women, if anything, are required to prove their loyalty first without the men having to prove their worth. They are to prove loyal to the men's needs and interests regardless of what.

So for example, I recognize the kinship of those within my network of family and friends. I recognize the kinship of those other black male colleagues and acquaintances who have proven themselves to be kin.

I don't claim kinship to random black men with whom I have no connection. I don't go around trying to make eye contact with random black men on the street. I will, however, if I'm in a social, ie., work-related environment, recognize the possibility of kinship with the black men I see/meet. But they have to earn the kinship. It is not a given.

PioneerValleyWoman said...

You noted:

We can't say that good Black men don't care. We don't honestly know how they feel about all of this. They hardly talk in the first place. It's just like with, good Black women. The Sherri Shephards get all of the attention, while the Angela Bassetts are "nowhere to be found".

--And Black women shouldn't wait to do anything. More Black women need to live as soon as possible.

My reply:

But does it even matter whether the good black men care? What can they do on a large scale? Start their own movement? The civil rights movement ended along time ago, and the last "movement" to address these questions didn't result in a large-scale movement, ie. the Million Man March.

However, some men might be living it on a day to day basis, the caring. All that matters is whether they are doing anything to help matters? Not all men are going to go out there and try to mentor the numbskulls, and they shouldn't. In the end, the question is, will they stand up for black women and girls and support them? Will they raise their sons to do the same?

It is simply a matter of keeping close, those black men who already are "kin," and recognizing the possibility for kinship among men who might not be black. As you said, black women can't wait.

Oshun said...

@ Seraph

"unless you have devised some way where Black women can control for the gender of their children ...a Black girl is going to have a Black brother (biological) eventually."


If a black woman has a functioning quality male as a husband and has limited contact with dysfunctional black constructs - this would not be an issue.


I am not discouraged at all. If they are killed or imprisoned, as they will be, I feel absolutely nothing about it.

Seraph said...

Kinship works for others because it is part and parcel of their existence and community. The men know they have obligations and responsibilities to the women of their group--protection and care; the women reciprocate with their loyalty to the men and the group flourishes. That has been the basis of patriarchy, the way in which men prove themselves as leaders worthy of women's trust and kinship.

Black women, if anything, are required to prove their loyalty first without the men having to prove their worth. They are to prove loyal to the men's needs and interests regardless of what.

So for example, I recognize the kinship of those within my network of family and friends. I recognize the kinship of those other black male colleagues and acquaintances who have proven themselves to be kin.

I don't claim kinship to random black men with whom I have no connection. I don't go around trying to make eye contact with random black men on the street. I will, however, if I'm in a social, ie., work-related environment, recognize the possibility of kinship with the black men I see/meet. But they have to earn the kinship. It is not a given.
(from PioneerValleyWoman)

@PioneerValleyWoman: You know what? That's really an insightful comment, PioneerValleyWoman. Kinship of any kind is never meant to be unconditional, or even obligatory.

With racial kinship, it's no different. There must be rules and limitations set. Most importantly, there must be those who enforce them. In most cases, this would be the Black men as we live in a patriarchy (as you've mentioned).

In fact, it's MORE important with regard to racial kinship because children will be reared under this kind of kinship. So, it's rewarding in that you can teach these children to value the community in the way that their parents and elders have taught them.

It works in the way that you're doing it, because it's wonderfully simple. You didn't have to "look" for suitable men to form kinships with. These men were there, and you simply evaluated whether or not they were worthy of kinship. The rest aren't even considered.

But, the key is to actually expel bad apples from the kinship... and prevent any bad apples from entering the kinship. It seems that Black people don't shame and expel people out of their circles when they get out of line.

Unconditional kinship gives no incentive for the men of women in that kinship to stay on the level. With "threat of punishment" (for lack of a better term), the entire kinship would thrive. Well, hypothetically.

Seraph said...

It is simply a matter of keeping close, those black men who already are "kin," and recognizing the possibility for kinship among men who might not be black. As you said, black women can't wait. (from PioneerValleyWoman)

@PioneerValleyWoman: I agree. I must say that I do. This succintly denotes what I said in my previous post.

Indeed, Black women shouldn't wait. Should they be cautious? Absolutely. But, not SO cautious that they're at a standstill.

ak said...

Aimee:

But just as it would be intellectually dishonest to say that the absence of black men from the community is all their fault, it would be equally dishonest to pretend that their absence is completely involuntary, or that the same power relationships that shape the way that black men have responded to the pressures of white society shape the way they have responded to the dependence needs of the black family and the internal leadership needs of the black community.

But... if black men up and leave the black children that they created, whether the children are OOW or not,and the women that they had the children with then it IS all the black men's fault. No matter what racism, lynching, police brutality, racial profiling etc. is going on at the time.

I am SURE that if lynching, police brutality, racial profiling, etc. was mostly aimed at black women, and if these same black women had kids one day decided to up and walk out of their kids' lives entirely, loads of black people at least would have plenty to say and heap a whole load of blame on her head. Yes if that was what black women were to do one day, they'd then deserve that blame, but that's not my point.

I hear about black men such as Malcolm X's father in his autobiography married and present in his household with his children when Malcolm X was a child all while preaching about Marcus Garvey's message in his church, getting the Klan on his tail and eventually being lynched by them. Yet he didn't up and leave his wife, kids, black church etc.

Why didn't he? Black people got married during slavery whether or not one or the other would be sold the next day. Black men got married and started families during the height of lynching.

So nope....uh-uh. If there's a mass exodus of BM leaving the so-called black community behind and then black people are scratching their head and wondering why blacks are in such a mess, then yes it IS all the black men's fault if they just leave everything up to the women and children and assume, or let's face it-- not even care, that things will 'all work out'.

Because please even the bad old lynching days didn't leave black communities and families as broken up and fragmented and damaged as it is now. Stop blaming the white people for this one in this day and age because it certainly didn't screw up the old-schooler blacks like how the modern ones are now. No this Aimee this comment isn't aimed at you; it's for your Internet Ike Turner trolls.

And Aimee you should ban these trolls because there should be no free speech for people who try hard to derail your blog by implying that the only people who need introspection and work done on them are the black women, whites, Asians, Latinos or whoever but never the black men!

ak said...

Aimee:

But just as it would be intellectually dishonest to say that the absence of black men from the community is all their fault, it would be equally dishonest to pretend that their absence is completely involuntary, or that the same power relationships that shape the way that black men have responded to the pressures of white society shape the way they have responded to the dependence needs of the black family and the internal leadership needs of the black community.

But... if black men up and leave the black children that they created, whether the children are OOW or not,and the women that they had the children with then it IS all the black men's fault. No matter what racism, lynching, police brutality, racial profiling etc. is going on at the time.

I am SURE that if lynching, police brutality, racial profiling, etc. was mostly aimed at black women, and if these same black women had kids one day decided to up and walk out of their kids' lives entirely, loads of black people at least would have plenty to say and heap a whole load of blame on her head. Yes if that was what black women were to do one day, they'd then deserve that blame, but that's not my point.

I hear about black men such as Malcolm X's father in his autobiography married and present in his household with his children when Malcolm X was a child all while preaching about Marcus Garvey's message in his church, getting the Klan on his tail and eventually being lynched by them. Yet he didn't up and leave his wife, kids, black church etc.

Why didn't he? Black people got married during slavery whether or not one or the other would be sold the next day. Black men got married and started families during the height of lynching.

So nope....uh-uh. If there's a mass exodus of BM leaving the so-called black community behind and then black people are scratching their head and wondering why blacks are in such a mess, then yes it IS all the black men's fault if they just leave everything up to the women and children and assume, or let's face it-- not even care, that things will 'all work out'.

Because please even the bad old lynching days didn't leave black communities and families as broken up and fragmented and damaged as it is now. Stop blaming the white people for this one in this day and age because it certainly didn't screw up the old-schooler blacks like how the modern ones are now. No this Aimee this comment isn't aimed at you; it's for your Internet Ike Turner trolls.

And Aimee you should ban these trolls because there should be no free speech for people who try hard to derail your blog by implying that the only people who need introspection and work done on them are the black women, whites, Asians, Latinos or whoever but never the black men!

foreverloyal said...

**We interrupt this blog posting for an important announcement**
The holiday shopping season is in full swing, and NOW is the time for all the supporters of BWE work to put their money where their mouths are.
Now is the time to support blog hosts by buying their books as gifts for friends (or yourself!) Now is the time to head over to Etsy.com and find a sista who's whipping up homemade products. Buy them as gifts.
Now's the time to buy a Rissi Palmer or Angel Taylor CD.
Now's the time to hit up Loose ID for Roslyn's latest release.
Now's the time to order homemade cookies from that sista you know who bakes up batches to sell every holiday season.
Now is the time.

http://foreverloyal.wordpress.com/2010/11/17/lets-make-it-a-bwe-christmas-and-eid-and-hanukkah-etc/

Nicole Little said...

Hi everybody! My name is Nicole Little from Philly, and here's the new post that I post in my blog. ENJOY!


http://blackwomenselflove.blogspot.com/2010/12/why-are-black-peopletrying-so-hard-to.html

dan said...

Hi there,

wife and I just discovered this blog. She's black, I'm white. Interesting read! thanks for posting. only disagreement I have is that I think OOW births are too accepted. Its become the biggest problem in society and people need to be held to a standard for their behavior, both male and female.

To a certain extent all men view women as objects, (a good man is able to see his woman as more than JUST a sexual object) and there is no doubt that this society values the white woman more than the black woman. There are so few attractive black woman (ie, dark skinned women with attractive [negro] features and shapes) in pop culture that its difficult to even bring up well known examples of attractive black women when discussing attractive women with male friends. Meanwhile, they throw out names like nicole kidman...I don't know, whatever, I'm sure she's nice.

as a man who has dated black women all my life, I have run into a lot of women who are not willing to date outside their race. I recall one time in particular I approached a young woman with a group of friends (all black) and introduced myself, asking if she might like to go out sometime. She gave me the boyfriend line, but for the rest of the time we were at this establishment, everytime I would look in her direction I would catch her looking at me, and she gave me a very long, "what might have been" look as she left.

I would love to see more interracial relationships, but my single white male friends seem uninterested in dating black women for various reasons. In at least one case its a matter of familial acceptance, in another, a preference for pencil thin white women with nothing much to offer except a bunch of hard edges and boney corners.

Anyway, my wife and I couldn't be happier and are so glad that neither one of us are influenced by the black community or the popular conceptions of beauty in this society.

Thanks for your blog, looking forward to your continued posting.

Fulton said...

OMG, I have read some of the most disturbing things I have ever come across in my life on this blog...why is race such a deciding factor? People are people, be attracted to an individual not a color, socio-economic status or statistics. This is crazy talk, I can't believe I'm reading this stuff, people who make broad generalizations of other groups of people are racist simple and plain, whether it's black men talking about black women, or black women talking about black men, it's self hating vitriol that's not productive in any way. So what if you are dating outside your race? If you were unable to find a man of your own race that met your qualifications then that's all it was, it's a numbers game, not a statement on the entire demographic, this is sick to even think that just because some individuals had a bad experience dating that they now have formed an opinion about an entire group?!?! I don't care what color you are, whoever does that needs help, or counseling because they are seriously damaged. I have had good and bad experiences dating people of all colors, i don't hold it against the entire sex of those individual races, that's crazy...smh, some of these people commenting need help, or jesus or something. I know this comment probably won't even get posted but I just couldn't believe what i was reading, maybe i suffer from a lack of understanding, i don't know...