Thursday, November 29, 2007

Jason Whitlock and the New KKK

Not generally being a fan of professional team sports, I was not familiar until recently with Jason Whitlock, who has become one of the most prominent black sports columnists in the United States. He writes for the Kansas City Star and AOL Sports. Considering the dearth of black people employed in professional journalism in this country this is quite an accomplishment, though Mr. Whitlock’s rise to prominence in the field of sports coverage, where his commentaries focus almost exclusively on black athletes, makes his “success” a little less surprising. It has long been common in the mainstream press for black voices that would otherwise be marginalized and ignored to be provided a prominent platform as long as they are saying what white people want to hear being said, especially about other black people.

Mr. Whitlock has built his career recently on his critiques of DBR behavior among black professional athletes, attacking Pro Basketball in particular for being too “gangsta,” “violent,” and “hip hop.” Mr. Whitlock was especially incensed by the this summer’s NBA All Star weekend in Las Vegas, which he compared to “the yard at a maximum security prison,” dominated by “the Black KKK,” that “Instead of wearing white robes and white hoods . . . has now taken to wearing white Ts and calling themselves gangsta rappers, gangbangers and posse members. Just like the White KKK of the 1940s and ‘50s, we fear them, keep our eyes lowered, shut our mouths and pray they don't bother us.” The recent murder of Washington Redskins player Sean Taylor has only increased the vociferousness of Mr. Whitlock’s attacks on this new “Black KKK.”

Considering his disdain for the vileness of DBR behavior and the violent degrading imagery common to so much of the music and culture that accompanies such behavior, I found Mr. Whitlock’s silence on the Dunbar Village incident absolutely deafening. It also surprised me to hear him defend Don Imus’ employment of that same degrading imagery and language to insult the Rutgers Women’s Basketball, stating simply that “A man who degrades himself wastes his time demanding respect from others.” I found this statement puzzling, since of course, the Rutgers Women are not men, and have done nothing to degrade themselves. Why then is it a “waste of their time” to demand respect? Mr. Whitlock insisted that “Imus isn’t the real bad guy,” and stated without an iota of proof that “I’m sure at least one of the marvelous young women on the Rutgers team is somewhere snapping her fingers to the beat of 50 Cent’s or Snoop Dogg’s or Young Jeezy’s latest ode glorifying nappy headed pimps and hos.”

Of course, this disconnect began to make sense when I learned that Mr. Whitlock had worked with, among other “gangsta rappers,” the 57th Street Rogue Dog Villains, and helped produce a Kansas City Chiefs theme song that’s performed by the very types Mr. Whitlock claims are ruining the black community. It also fit in neatly with his references to himself as “Big Sexy,” a “playa” who’s enjoyed the well-publicized hospitality of Hugh Hefner and the Girls Next Door—apparently, a white woman selling her ass deserves Mr. Whitlock’s grinning approbation, while a black woman scholar-athlete deserves to be freely insulted and scorned by any and all comers, regardless of how she conducts herself.

Mr. Whitlock is a perfect illustration of why DBRBM and the “new Black KKK” are not only to be found in white Ts, riding spinners. All too often, he is the self-described “educated brotha,” who “fears them, keep his eyes lowered, shut his mouths and prays they don't bother us” when confronted by thugs—but has plenty of courageous disdain for black women. He can snicker at other black men who “Bojangle” for a living, while he indulges in the ultimate minstrelsy: demeaning black women, leaving BW and children vulnerable and unprotected before predators, while he sits like a big black puppet mumbling a script for ESPN. Mr. Whitlock has nothing but contempt for “babymamas” but like any good “playa” there appears to be no Mrs. Whitlock on the horizon. Unlike Bill Cosby or Oprah, who have made similar complaints similar to Mr. Whitlock’s, he can point to nothing that he has offered those of our young people who are smart, hard-working, and committed to bettering themselves. Indeed, when a group of such young women were publicly attacked, he supported their attacker. He can attack DBRBM as cardboard cutout stereotypes that embody white fears, but he can’t get to the heart of the damage they inflict on the black community, because that might require that he look at men like himself, and the yawning void they have left in community, which the DBR have happily filled. Physician, heal thyself.

266 comments:

1 – 200 of 266   Newer›   Newest»
daphne said...

I have heard of Jason Whitlock, and thought that his commentary on the Don Imus situation was supposedly in favor of the Rutgers team members. Clearly, I misunderstood (I was going on hearsay, and have not actually read his commentary). Some additional research is required on my part. It's not that I don't believe you, Aimee, just that it's obvious I need to find out more about Mr. Whitlock. I always feel the need to know more about the wolves in sheeps' clothing.

Perhaps he provides commentary on events unrelated to sports, but could it be that his silence on the Dunbar Village incident is because it wasn't sports-related? I don't know, thus my curiosity. It could very well be that he wouldn't say anything even if it was. Other than Gina and other bf bloggers, the silence on Dunbar Village among the "black leaders and community" and blogs has been rather telling.

Aimee said...

Jason Whitlock: Imus Isn't the Real Bad Guy
KC Star | 4/11/07 |

Imus isn’t the real bad guy

Thank you, Don Imus. You’ve given us (black people) an excuse to avoid our real problem.

You’ve given Vivian Stringer and Rutgers the chance to hold a nationally televised recruiting celebration expertly disguised as a news conference to respond to your poor attempt at humor.

While we’re fixated on a bad joke cracked by an irrelevant, bad shock jock, I’m sure at least one of the marvelous young women on the Rutgers basketball team is somewhere snapping her fingers to the beat of 50 Cent’s or Snoop Dogg’s latest ode glorifying nappy-headed pimps and hos.
___________________________________

I don't interpret this as being supportive of the Rutgers women.

Obviously, people are free to see Mr. Whitlock and his actions as they choose; my commentary is based on how I see him, and the trend I think he represents: BM who's primary goal is to assuage white fears of DBRBM, but whose abandonment of BW and children is what has allowed DBRBM to take control and prey on too many poor black communities in the first place.

That is why he can ignore Dunbar Village and mock the Rutgers Women; because most white people really don't care about them, and he only cares about DBR behavior to the extent that it scares white people.

Mr. Whitlock says that "we" need to take action against this "new KKK," but who are "we" if not the BM who have been demanding dominant leadership roles in the community since the days of Black Power? Okay, Mr. Whitlock--if you're really so outraged, stop ogling Playboy bunnies and stand up and take the action you advocate--period.

JJ said...

I have litle patience for Whitlock. His role as Step - N=Fetchit at ESPN grows old...quickly.

Anonymous said...

I think he's only pandering to his audience. Sad, but true.

daphne said...

Aimee,
I read the whole article, and wow. Just wow. To your point, I think what pissed me off most was his hyperbolic assumption that "at least one of the marvelous young women on the Rutgers basketball team is somewhere snapping her fingers to the beat of 50 Cent’s or Snoop Dogg’s latest ode glorifying nappy-headed pimps and hos."

First, what in the holy hell does that have to do with Imus' comment?

Second, even if one of the women listened to 50 Cent, that means she deserves to be called a nappy-headed ho? What kind of logic is that? Sounds rather analogous to the sentiment that a provocatively dressed woman is asking to be sexually assaulted.

Okay, Mr. Whitlock--if you're really so outraged, stop ogling Playboy bunnies and stand up and take the action you advocate--period.
Indeed, Aimee.

Anonymous said...

Whitlock's point about the Rutgers girls (or at least one) listening to 50 cent was made to show that these girls probably invite similar characterizations (nappy-headed and ho) into their ears regularly, so how can they claim this deep hurt that their publicity-hound coach went on and on about? I don't think he was defending the content of Imus's comments (or maybe he did but I doubt it), but here at least he was simply pointing out that the comments really could not have been offensive to these girls. They seek out worse every day, unless they're unlike any other black girls their age and don't watch music videos or listen to Hip Hop - I think it's a very safe assumption they do. I doubt these girls are delicate little hothouse flowers. You claim he doesn't defend black women; that he leaves them "unprotected before predators." Though I can't reference another posting of yours, probably somewhere on your blog you have spoken of the strength of black women, how they can achieve, etc. Yet here you wanted them treated as defenseless little children. Pick.

Pamela said...

Unless we follow their every move we cannot say what type of music the Rutgers students listen to. They may listen to the denigrating rap music or they actually may have a conscience and may not. The fact that the man made an assumption that they did is enough to tell me that he has those attitudes about bw. It also seems like he has condescending attitudes about women in general if his mode of entertainment is Playboy bunnies.

I have never heard of this man and it appears that he would be a waste of my time to watch.

Anonymous said...

How is it possible to know music listening preferences just by LOOKING at someone?

PioneerValleyWoman said...

Anonymous said:

Whitlock's point about the Rutgers girls (or at least one) listening to 50 cent was made to show that these girls probably invite similar characterizations (nappy-headed and ho) into their ears regularly, so how can they claim this deep hurt that their publicity-hound coach went on and on about?

My observation:

Greetings, Aimee! I've been out here, reading, but not posting much--busy!


There is a big difference between what is "possible" v. what is "probable." If Whitlock has no strong evidence of a speficic Rutgers' players interest in misogynistic black music, there is no basis whatsover, as a previous poster just explained, for presuming that it is "probable."

This logic is deeply troubling. There are many young black women who are presumed to be "ghetto," when in reality, they are not. And when a black woman is presumed to be ghetto, it is a means of excusing the abuse that others subject them to.

That sort of logic is on par with the types of arguments that whites make about blacks based upon presumptions with no basis in the actual experiences and realities of individual blacks they see and meet. And of course, it is a means of excusing discrimination--well, they are only the dregs anyway, they are used to it, they deserve it, etc.

But it seems that for some in the community, those who will howl forever and a day about black men's stigmatization, ie., can't get a cab in a city, whites are terrified of them, the nuckleheads make it bad for everyone, are some of the first to join in stigmaztizing young black women.

And they can't see a problem with this. They can't see that their continual excusing of stigmatizing of black women only contributes to what the nuckleads are doing, the harm they do to the young women.

But one can't expect too much of misogynists who do this. They forget, these are their mothers, sisters, daughters.

They can't see the world through women's eyes, and reject any chance to do so, because they feel contempt for women.




So although they might not see themselves as "nuckleheads," they might as well be when they are part of the fraternity to don't question the nuckleheads' behavior and

it is perfectly fine

PioneerValleyWoman said...

in their view, all is well, and it is perfectly fine...

Implosion while Rome burns?

Aimee said...

Anonymous said...

Whitlock's point about the Rutgers girls (or at least one) listening to 50 cent was made to show that these girls probably invite similar characterizations (nappy-headed and ho) into their ears regularly, so how can they claim this deep hurt that their publicity-hound coach went on and on about?

Whitlock's "point" was that they "probably" like exactly the kind of music that he produces, and thus definitely have no right to complain about being insulted in the terms common to this type of music. However, Mr. Whitlock doesn't know these women or what they like, and Mr. Whitlock certainly doesn't appear to believe HE deserves to be dismissed for actually producing such music--so how can he justify the degradation of others because he has presumed that they enjoy what he has put out into the world for their consumption?

You claim he doesn't defend black women; that he leaves them "unprotected before predators." Though I can't reference another posting of yours, probably somewhere on your blog you have spoken of the strength of black women, how they can achieve, etc. Yet here you wanted them treated as defenseless little children. Pick.

No, men like you and Mr. Whitlock need to "pick": do you want to pay the cost to be the boss and actually lead, or do you want to keep your eyes lowered, shut your mouths and pray that nobody calls you out on your hypocrisy while you party with hookers and bump the 57th Street Rogue Dog Villains? Because you got one thing exactly right--whether you get it together or not, sisters are going to be fine. We're just going to be fine with you or fine without you. Now you pick.

Aimee said...

Hey PVW! Great to see you back!

PioneerValleyWoman said...

There are many young black women who are presumed to be "ghetto," when in reality, they are not. And when a black woman is presumed to be ghetto, it is a means of excusing the abuse that others subject them to . . .

But it seems that for some in the community, those who will howl forever and a day about black men's stigmatization, ie., can't get a cab in a city, whites are terrified of them, the nuckleheads make it bad for everyone, are some of the first to join in stigmaztizing young black women.

And they can't see a problem with this. They can't see that their continual excusing of stigmatizing of black women only contributes to what the nuckleads are doing, the harm they do to the young women . . .

So although they might not see themselves as "nuckleheads," they might as well be when they are part of the fraternity to don't question the nuckleheads' behavior and it is perfectly fine



Thank you for summing it up perfectly. Mr. Anonymous shouldn't have any difficulty understanding this crystal clear explanation.

Anonymous said...

get 'em amiee!!! lol

Anonymous said...

knockoutchick says:

"Though I can't reference another posting of yours, probably somewhere on your blog you have spoken of the strength of black women, how they can achieve, etc. Yet here you wanted them treated as defenseless little children. Pick."

Hmmm...as if men defending thier women and women showing strength at the SAME time can't go hand in hand. I think this is the BIG issue in the BC.

As if strength in a woman allows the man to abdicate his role as protector.

That some men think we SHOULD "pick"! That is the problem!

gatamala said...

Damn Aimee you do it every time! :)

KOChick
As if strength in a woman allows the man to abdicate his role as protector.

That's the proof of DBRBM mentality. The underlying mentalith is that strength in women is seen as emasculation.

The lack of understanding as to what manhood is, is truly frightening.

PioneerValleyWoman said...

gatamala said...

Damn Aimee you do it every time! :)

KOChick
As if strength in a woman allows the man to abdicate his role as protector.

That's the proof of DBRBM mentality. The underlying mentality is that strength in women is seen as emasculation.

The lack of understanding as to what manhood is, is truly frightening.

Exactly, Gatamala and Knockoutchick!

Men who are secure in their masculinity don't feel threatened by their women's strengths.

But the damaged mentality presumes that black women's strengths somehow "takes away from the men," as though the men have no internal compass that leaves them to feel secure in their masculinity...it all comes from the outside--how things appear. If she appears too strong, it hurts him...

I guess that is what happens when men feel powerless compared to other men, and who believe their masculinity is under attack at all turns. They rely upon their women's subordination to build them up...

Truly pathetic.

Anonymous said...

That's the proof of DBRBM mentality. The underlying mentalith is that strength in women is seen as emasculation.

The problem is the notion that being curt, demeaning, loud, self centered, stubborn and cantankerous somehow equates to strength.

Anonymous said...

knockoutchick says:

As I said on C-1's blog...Jewish women are accused of the very same behaviour..yet jewish men seem to be able to make thier way in life.

Stubborn would be a soft word compared to what I have heard some Jewish women called....yet Jewish men succeed.

A certain kind of bossy maternal behaviour is found in many cultures and people of color.

That bossy, over-bearing Mama has helped generations of West African men succeed and Jewish men succeed....yet AA men have issues with it....

Anonymous said...

knockoutchick says:

Further I think a big part of the problem in the BC...is that the overbearing Mama, woman, relative has LIGHTENED up on our men.

Because our men have such an issue with the goading....the old Mamas have pulled back. They still ride the girls in the family and we see what has happened because of this change. I am sure you all have watched the MSNBC special. BW far out pacing BM in education and the work place.

The pulling back and feeling GUILTY for behaving the way Mamas and women do the world over...has lead to soft, under-achieving males.

Grandmamas should be cantankerous in the BC. It seems a lot of men these days have such fragile egos...they can't take the truth!

There are very few places in the BC where you can just speak your mind and tell the truth without a million prefaces.

Anonymous said...

Half of Jewish Americans marry non-Jewish people. Jewish men marry non-Jewish people at twice the rate that Jewish women do. Just food for thought.

Also, the Jewish American Princess stereotype generally refers to a whiney woman who is selfish, manipulative and materialistic; these traits being attributed to a pampered background. What is missing from this stereotype is the belligerence associated with the "Angry Black Woman" stereotype given to African American women. A whiney woman may be an aggravation, but being whiney does not equate to being demeaning.

Black men have no problem with the overbearing mama or grandmamma. As a matter of fact, black men tend to have very close and affectionate relationships with their mothers and grandmothers and look upon the strictness of those mothers with fondness. The thing is that these men don't want to marry their mothers and grandmothers.

The old mommas, while strict and forceful with their kids, were not that way with their husbands. Think of it like this. No matter what a mother says or does, the vast majority of black men will not strike them nor curse them out. One cannot say the same regarding these men's wives and girlfriends. Thus, the overbearing momma does not translate into the overbearing mate.

Anonymous said...

There are very few places in the BC where you can just speak your mind and tell the truth without a million prefaces.

So can a man freely tell his wife that she is a "fat slob" after she gains 100 pounds? He would be speaking his mind and telling the truth.

There is a balance to be achieved between what a person needs to hear and what is offensive to a person. No one wants to be consistantly bomarded with put downs and negativity.

Understand that it is not about fragile egos so much. Beyond the immediate disrespect, insults from outsiders will have little bearing on how a black man feels about himself. The problem comes when the insults come from the person you have made a lifelong commitment to. Men marry women based on the idea that being married to that certain woman will bring a greater degree of happiness to his life than would be the case if he hadn't married her. Men don't like drama and negativity. Thus, when such drama and negativity becomes routine, he questions the point of being with this person. A man with thick skin can take harshness from an individual, but he doesn't want to marry that individual. The toughest of men seek peace and comfort.

Anonymous said...

knockoutchick says:

"No matter what a mother says or does, the vast majority of black men will not strike them nor curse them out."

Hmmm ...not sure about that one. You should ride the "A" train at 3pm.

Further it is funny how people make associations in thier minds...the stuff that is deep and "colors" all conversations.

I am aware of the Jewish American Princess stereotype...but that is NOT what I mentioned. I was referring to the Jewish women who are perceived to be as aggressive or "belligerent" as you might say. The pushy Mama, the aggresive Business woman...I was talking about the goading woman...NOT JAPs.

These stereotypes are very much a apart of Jewish culture and Jewish men do not constantly whine about hating "bossy" Jewish women.

"The thing is that these men don't want to marry their mothers and grandmothers."

Ahhhhhh...yet Jewish men marry women who resemble thier mothers....African men marry women who resemble thier mothers and so on.....

I would disagree and say many AA men do NOT have deep affection for thier mothers....

I think male/female roles in the BC have turned on end. None of the things we believed to be traditions seem to exist anymore.

Anonymous said...

knockoutchick responds:

"So can a man freely tell his wife that she is a "fat slob" after she gains 100 pounds? He would be speaking his mind and telling the truth."

We are not talking directly about a romantic situation between a man and a woman. We are talking about societal truths....

Yet, yes I think if a man feels like his wife has become a "fat slob" he should say so. That's just my opinion. But, that is your personal choice in how you choose to relate your feelings to your partner or lover.

I for one, am meeting loads of guys with HUGE beer bellies and guts pouring over thier jeans...and they think they look fine and have friends describe them as "handsome". We live in a FAT country. Aren't we the fattest in the Western world? Yet men don't seem to see thier fat guts...hmmm wonder why. I am very thin and fit. I work out ALMOST everyday. The same HUGE guys will tell me I look great but not see themselves.

BTW, I personally never say anything negative to men about thier looks...or anyone else for that matter except my closest GFs.


"The problem comes when the insults come from the person you have made a lifelong commitment to."

Insults are something very different than what I am talking about. If you are in a relationship with somone you FEEL is constantly insulting you...then you should leave.

You might also ask yourself is there anything in your behaviour that CONSTANTLY requires insults?

That is an individual question for a marriage counselor and in no way refers to most BW.

Anonymous said...

Hmmm ...not sure about that one. You should ride the "A" train at 3pm.

Why should a Southern man like myself need to feel that the "A" train in NY represents black America?

I am aware of the Jewish American Princess stereotype...but that is NOT what I mentioned. I was referring to the Jewish women who are perceived to be as aggressive or "belligerent" as you might say. The pushy Mama, the aggresive Business woman...I was talking about the goading woman...NOT JAPs.

The "Yiddishe mama" and "JAP" are the only stereotypes I have heard of regarding Jewish women. One relates to mother and child relationships. The other doesn't involve aggression and belligerence. Maybe you are confusing behavior common with New Yorkers with behavior common to Jewish women.

These stereotypes are very much a apart of Jewish culture and Jewish men do not constantly whine about hating "bossy" Jewish women.

They complain about whiney Jewish women. The notion of "bossy" is a stereotype I'm not familiar with.

Ahhhhhh...yet Jewish men marry women who resemble thier mothers....African men marry women who resemble thier mothers and so on.....

Men tend to marry women who treat them like their mothers treated their fathers, not like their mothers treated them.

I would disagree and say many AA men do NOT have deep affection for thier mothers....

Why would you disagree? There have been books written about the bond between black boys and their mothers.

Compare this to the much greater tendency of white boys to curse out or even strike their mothers. There is no comparison.

I think male/female roles in the BC have turned on end. None of the things we believed to be traditions seem to exist anymore.

And could this be due to the way that black women have embraced white feminist ideology?

Insults are something very different than what I am talking about. If you are in a relationship with somone you FEEL is constantly insulting you...then you should leave.

Have you considered that men are doing just this, hence the 70% single rate?

You might also ask yourself is there anything in your behaviour that CONSTANTLY requires insults?

Now when men use this same reasoning to justify calling women "bi*ches" and "hos", sistas don't accept it.

That is an individual question for a marriage counselor and in no way refers to most BW.

I hope that you don't subscribe to Halima and others' notion that certain pathologies refer to "most BM".

Anonymous said...

I am a black female and I am fond of sports, basketball especially, so I know very well of the Uncle Tom named Jason Whitlock. I cannot agree with the original post though. From what I've seen, including his appearance on Oprah and on a special about the ills of Hip Hop on BET, he has vehemently opposed the horrible imagery of Black women. Now I won't go so far as to say he is a supporter of Black women, I think his defensive stance is just a convenient approach to reach his ultimate goal: blame and attack hip hop for as many things as possible.

Jason "Coon" Whitlock is actually more concerned with attacking hip hop and the culture than anything else, so he took the Imus incident as a perfect outlet to revert back to his criticisms on rap music. It wasn't so much about attacking Black women as it was about attacking rap music/culture.

Anonymous said...

I know that your comments weren't to me Mr. Anonymous, but I wanted to harp in on a couple of things you said...

[i]And could this be due to the way that black women have embraced white feminist ideology?[/i]

You mean the same way Black men have adopted Western, sexist values in their approach to women and relationships? The way they have taken on this "women are not my equal" stance when pre-colonized Africa was astounding equal in terms of male/female relationships and some times very matriarchal? lol. I always find it funny when fake pro-Black men talk about the downfall of Black women adopting "feminist" ideologies all the while subscribing vehemently to the white man's ideals that women are second to men.

[i]Have you considered that men are doing just this, hence the 70% single rate?[/i]

That 70% stat is extremely overblown and overused now. 1) If you look at the other races of women's stats they are all also what you might call "high", ranging in the 50s to 60 percentile. 2) the stats are skewed to fit a specific agenda to begin with. The same way black men in college/black men in jail stats were (which I'm sure you wouldn't hesitate to deny deny deny if they had been presented lol)

[i]Now when men use this same reasoning to justify calling women "bi*ches" and "hos", sistas don't accept it.[/i]

This isn't a good response. Young Black men in general have a huge and growing amount of hate for women IN GENERAL, its not Black women specific so it really can't be blamed on anything Black women are doing. They have this overwhelming contempt for the female species that resembles homosexuality but honestly I think is something far worse. It only seems that these "bitches, hoes, sluts" etc. are just reserved for Black women because these are generally the women these men come into contact with/date/etc. These are the type of men who routinely insult the female species in general, gain pleasure out of hurting females in their encounters with them, and, even more alarming, encourage other males to do the same by claiming their hatred for all things feminine as true masculinity.

ANA said...

What's DBR?

Anonymous said...

DBR= Damaged Beyond Repair

PioneerValleyWoman said...

Anonymous at 6:23am

You mean the same way Black men have adopted Western, sexist values in their approach to women and relationships?

My reply:

and they began adhering to a black nationalism in the wake of the civil rights movement that presented black women as being "too strong," and thus impeding black men's abilities to be patriarchs in the way they saw the white men were. Rejecting black women's strengths which were so important for community survival, black women became the enemy because they were not "submissive" enough...

Yan said...

I don't think this anonymous character even deserves a response. Instead of providing a defense of why he feels it is appropriate to malign the characters of the Rutgers basketball players, he slings more mud on black women.

The problem is the notion that being curt, demeaning, loud, self centered, stubborn and cantankerous somehow equates to strength.

How original. It is obvious this is his dim view of black women and that he feels black women are not worthy of respect, love, or protection. It is quite amusing that he blames the undesirability and of black women as mates as the reason for the high number of black women being single. The 2003 census showed that 39.7% of black women had never been married. 41.6% black men had never been married.

So are black men running away from black women because black women are so unsuited for marriage or are black men increasingly unable or unwilling to enter into committed relationships with women of any race?

I am so over men like this anon.As the number of bw dating out continues to skyrocket, really who cares what they think of black women? We've moved on and we're better off without them.

Anonymous said...

So Jason Whitlock, a BM, defends Don Imus for calling those fine young BW "Nappy Headed Hoes", oggles White Playboy bunnies, produces Rap music, and refuses to take BM to task for abandoning & abusing BW?

What a loser, an a perfect example of the garbage BW are stuck with wo do not appreciate them nor deserve them.

Great job in taking this fool to task Aimee.

Anonymous said...

Anon at 2:24, is that what your Blonde White Wife told you to say?

Anonymous said...

Anon @ 2:44. Typical weak BM nonsense you are talking. Stick to WW please. You are not worthy of a BW, you loser.

Anonymous said...

Anon at 5:07, save the lame, tired excuses for weak BM please.

Anonymous said...

Hey "Southern Man" anon, I DO in fact subscribe to the notion that these pathologies do refer to most BM. And if you do not like that I do, I do not give a damn. You have a lot of cheek to come in here and disrespect these intelligent, wonderful BW with your BM-defending, excuse-making tired, lame schtick. Stick to your fat White Blonde women and leave these beautiful BW queens alone. They do not need the likes of you.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
You mean the same way Black men have adopted Western, sexist values in their approach to women and relationships? The way they have taken on this "women are not my equal" stance when pre-colonized Africa was astounding equal in terms of male/female relationships and some times very matriarchal? lol. I always find it funny when fake pro-Black men talk about the downfall of Black women adopting "feminist" ideologies all the while subscribing vehemently to the white man's ideals that women are second to men.

If the white man's ideals are so bad, why is the white man being praised here as God's gift to black women?

Also, I made reference to a particular group of white women with a certain ideology. I think that black women would do better to embrace the ideals practiced by conservative white women.

Also, I believe that by embracing white liberalism, both black men and black women have failed.

That 70% stat is extremely overblown and overused now. 1) If you look at the other races of women's stats they are all also what you might call "high", ranging in the 50s to 60 percentile. 2) the stats are skewed to fit a specific agenda to begin with. The same way black men in college/black men in jail stats were (which I'm sure you wouldn't hesitate to deny deny deny if they had been presented lol)

Praises to you. I agree totally. I was just being the devil's advocate in making reference to this extremely overblown and overused notion. I'm glad to see a sista who recognizes and is willing to admit how flawed this stat is.

This isn't a good response. Young Black men in general have a huge and growing amount of hate for women IN GENERAL, its not Black women specific so it really can't be blamed on anything Black women are doing. They have this overwhelming contempt for the female species that resembles homosexuality but honestly I think is something far worse. It only seems that these "bitches, hoes, sluts" etc. are just reserved for Black women because these are generally the women these men come into contact with/date/etc. These are the type of men who routinely insult the female species in general, gain pleasure out of hurting females in their encounters with them, and, even more alarming, encourage other males to do the same by claiming their hatred for all things feminine as true masculinity.

Has nothing to do with hate. Black women call each other these names more than black men call them that. Black men call other black men bi*ches and hoes. Likewise how is it any different from the way that black women overwhelmingly refer to black men as "niggas"? I guarantee that black women call black men "niggas" at least as much as black men call black women the names above.

There is simply a crudeness that is rampant in the black community. We call each other names. "Bi*tch" and "ho" are generally seen as having feminine connotation whereas "nigga" is generally seen as having a masculine connotation. Black men routinely call each other "motherf*****", fag**t, punk, etc. etc. Black women likewise call them those names. Nobody complains. It is only when black women are called certain insulting names that we get complaints.

It has nothing to do with hate. It has to do with a sub-culture of crudeness and the death of chivalry and respect for women, something that the feminist movement has motivated. White men are calling white women "bi*ches" and "whores" more than ever before.

Anonymous said...

Yan said...
I don't think this anonymous character even deserves a response. Instead of providing a defense of why he feels it is appropriate to malign the characters of the Rutgers basketball players, he slings more mud on black women.


I'm surprised that you would respond like this Yan. I have read your views and your blog and I am generally impressed by your intelligence and civility. In response, I haven't slung mud at black women nor do I consider it appropriate to insult the Rutgers basketball players.

How original. It is obvious this is his dim view of black women and that he feels black women are not worthy of respect, love, or protection.

You're being irrational and resorting to adhominem attacks. There is a general tendency of black people to describe the tendency to be aggressive and confrontational as "strength". A mild mannered person can have great inner strength. Inner strength varies with individuals, not with races. There are strong white women, strong Asian women, strong Hispanic women and strong black women. Many blacks try to redefine strength based on personality characteristics common to blacks in an attempt to define black people as stronger than other groups.

It is quite amusing that he blames the undesirability and of black women as mates as the reason for the high number of black women being single. The 2003 census showed that 39.7% of black women had never been married. 41.6% black men had never been married.

Well I addressed this above. While I know that you do not do this, posters like anon 5:02 PM take the 70% stat as gospel and repeat it over and over, so I am just going with the flow.

So are black men running away from black women because black women are so unsuited for marriage or are black men increasingly unable or unwilling to enter into committed relationships with women of any race?

Black men overwhelmingly are not interested in committed relationships with non-black women. Likewise, black men are less and less seeing the benefit of marriage. Thus many remain single or put off marriage for long periods.

I am so over men like this anon. As the number of bw dating out continues to skyrocket, really who cares what they think of black women? We've moved on and we're better off without them.

I'm really sad now that you now have expressed this notion that black women must now leave us no good black men for the superior non-black men. Despite the ignorant statement by the anon, I have never advocated black men dating out and I have been married for 15 years to a black woman and we have 3 kids. I just personally feel that black women deserve just as much constructive criticism as black men. So I dish it out to both.

Anonymous said...

^^^^

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

Yan said...

Anonymous,
Were those your comments at 2:24 am yesterday? The ones that ASSUMED what type of music the Rutgers women listen to and that it's therefore ok to denigrate them because they listen to worse insults voluntarily?

If not, then I will view your comments differently. If so, I maintain my position. I am not saying all black men are no-good and I definitely do not think all white men are saints. That is certainly not the message I have gotten from Aimee's blog.

But, I am tired of the misogyny. Like more and more black women, I don't even listen to hip hop anymore or watch videos because it is too degrading. So I am offended by the notion that all bw are willing consumers of this type of product and therefore it is ok to talk about and treat us every and any kind of way.

But I strongly believe that any black woman is better off alone than with any man, black or white, who does not respect her and who subscribes to such stereotypical beliefs.

Yan said...

P.S. Anon, if you take both black men and women to task, then I can see your point in some areas. But I'm not on board with holding black women solely accountable for the problems in the black community. Nor can black women fix it all on their own. I think the blogs that focus on DBR BM do so in reaction to all the pressure black women get to do so.

My comment was specifically about "leaving behind" black men who are not willing to be suitable partners and fathers- the b****s and ho thug-life types. Many black men are suitable partners, but there aren't as many of them as there are black women looking for them. So the choice is date out, be alone, or spend your time and energy trying to reform someone living the thug life (I don't think so!)

Anonymous said...

Yan: That was not some other anon who made those comments about the Rutgers women and listening to hip hop; that was me and I posted only once. And again: it is really, really not reasonable to think that not ONE of those girls has ever volutarily listented to one hip hop song that denigrated black women. C'mon, they're black teenage girls. And one need not "follow them around" to make this valid assumption. Tell the advertisers who sell toys during cartoons, or the beer companies that hawk their products during NFL games, or the whole damn insurance industry, that such assumptions are invalid. That's just silly. And the point wasn't to defend the content of Imus's comments, but only to assert that these girls could not have been OFFENDED by them since they invite such comments about them into their ears by listening to the type of music we ALL KNOW they listen to. It was a coach's publicity stunt and you all know that in your hearts, and it's obvious because the best defense of the Rutgers' girls is the weak assertion that "we can't know what they listen to".

Pamela said...

Yan, give it up. You are dealing with someone that insists that all black teen girls listen and/or like this madness. That person stereotypes black teen girls like Don Imus did. Maybe this is their world. If so that person needs to move somewhere where they are exposed to a higher caliber of black teen girls that think more of themselves.

daphne said...

I sure wish our opinions were not summarily dismissed as unreasonable or weak assertions. Besides, it's a circular argument. Unless the team members were polled, there is certainly no way to know for sure what kind of music they listen to.

In addition, as Aimee has already stated, Jason Whitlock produces the very music he supposedly rails against. Frankly, his credibility is shot. So, the argument that the Rutgers team members CANNOT be offended because some man says that most or all black female teenagers/young adults listen to hip-hop is ludicrous. If that's the case, then why do black men get offended when a white man uses the word nigga? They CANNOT be offended because if young black women listen to hip-hop, surely most or all young black men do as well. And since they invite those lyrics by listening to the music, there's no need for a call to arms when it happens to black men, right?

Don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining. Women are seeing through the crap, and calling it out.

Yan said...

Daphne,
Touche. I'd add that Whitlock is also on-board with the postmortem character assassination of Sean Taylor.

Anonymous said...

Great rebuttal Daphne.

Anonymous said...

Anon @ 10:21 & 11:32, I think I hear your White wife calling you.


Or was it your "strong" Hispanic woman?


Go away loser.

Anonymous said...

If the white man's ideals are so bad, why is the white man being praised here as God's gift to black women?

Also, I made reference to a particular group of white women with a certain ideology. I think that black women would do better to embrace the ideals practiced by conservative white women.

Also, I believe that by embracing white liberalism, both black men and black women have failed.


No one here is praising white men as gods or anything of the sort. Blogs like these promote awareness to Black women that we have other options and should exercise them because we are routinely told one of 3 three things beginning in our childhood: 1. no one can love you like a black man can 2. no other race of men find you attractive 3. white men raped black women during slavery/you are the backbone of the community and must hold down the fort, even when no one else is/etc. In contrast, these same messages are not pushed at Black men the way they are at Black women so they date whom they want freely. And in times like these when it seems so many Black men are full of self hate (note, i am not saying all Black men who interacially date are full of self hate) and seek to run away from their identities by dating any race but Black, it is extremely important that we get these messages out so that good sistas are not just sitting around languishing while waiting on some hopeless men that want nothing to do with them for whatever reasons.

Also, it does not surprise me that you think Black women should model themselves after "conservative white women" because conservative white women are the ones who put up with the sexist ideals of those same white men i spoke of earlier(the ideals that you clearly see as okay to continue to be practiced but do not want to see practiced at the equally skewed and biased opposing end in femanzism--not feminism).

Has nothing to do with hate. Black women call each other these names more than black men call them that. Black men call other black men bi*ches and hoes. Likewise how is it any different from the way that black women overwhelmingly refer to black men as "niggas"? I guarantee that black women call black men "niggas" at least as much as black men call black women the names above.

There is simply a crudeness that is rampant in the black community. We call each other names. "Bi*tch" and "ho" are generally seen as having feminine connotation whereas "nigga" is generally seen as having a masculine connotation. Black men routinely call each other "motherf*****", fag**t, punk, etc. etc. Black women likewise call them those names. Nobody complains. It is only when black women are called certain insulting names that we get complaints.

It has nothing to do with hate. It has to do with a sub-culture of crudeness and the death of chivalry and respect for women, something that the feminist movement has motivated. White men are calling white women "bi*ches" and "whores" more than ever before.


Actually it has everything to do with hate. I think you and I both know that there is no way in hell that Black women refer to each other IN GENERAL as bitches, hoes, sluts, and the like more than Black men. You are not that delusional. You see, when men use this argument it is flawed because Black women will call women that they don't like or are trying to make fun of those names, just like any other person would in that situation, but no one...and I mean no one...refers to the female gender in general as bitches, hoes, sluts like Black men do. THAT IS THE HATE I AM TALKING ABOUT, AND THERE IS NO OTHER WAY TO DESCRIBE IT. Next, as far as Black women, or even Black men for that matter, referring to men in general as faggots, motherfuckers, or punks it DOES NOT HAPPEN. Men are only called these things when there is a fight or beef between them and the other person. (Remember, we all live in the same world as you and we can tell when you are bullsh*tting). Lastly, the use of the word nigga is used in general for Black people and is used equally by Black men and women and, if not equally, then definitely moreso by Black men. Also it generally is not supposed to have a hurtful or demeaning connotation when it is used so again, the parallel you are trying to draw does not apply.

Like I said, the only way to describe the way many young Black men view women nowadays is full of hatred and resentment. I also notice that you blame the feminist movement for a lot of things, something most sexists do, and I would also like to remind you that racist whites also blame the Civil Rights Movement and Black freedom for many of the downfalls in today's society. Just something to think about as you struggle for things to blame a movement for equality for problems in the community because I know how the modern Black man hates to receive prejudice but just loves to dish it out, specifically when it comes to women :)

Anonymous said...

Not being able to hear the truth is a sure sign of weakness. That reminds of two groups specifically. Want a hint? I think you know who I mean.

Anonymous said...

Daphne: Contrary to the comments which followed you (White wife, Hispanic woman; go away loser),you provided a reasoned response to my point. Thank you. Still though: attacking Whitlock's credibility or his past doesn't discredit his POINTS. Second, the intent behind "nigga" as used in a hip hop song and that behind its use by a white man, are different. One is said in a "bonding" way (whether one agrees that it should be used that way or not, it is used that way), and the other in a hateful way. So, it is not unreasonable for black teenage boys to find one (the hip hop bonding use) acceptable and the other (when said by a white man hatefully)offensive. With the "nappy-headed ho" comment, however, both the hip hop songs AND Imus offer those comments with the same intent towards black girls. So, black girls, by listening to such depictions of them voluntarily - even though it "demeans" them - cannot then claim offense when Imus uses such or similar verbiage with the same INTENT. In this case, both could be called equally offensive and yet the girls enjoy such or similar language through their Ipods, but then came off like hothouse flowers when their coach trotted them out to demonstrate their hurt from Imus's words. Again, this is not to defend Imus's words or such words in hip hop songs, but only to discredit the girls' claimed offense. Sorry for calling an argument weak before; I take that back - comments sections are here to hear all sides of a debate/discussion. I apologize; I should have kept it to a reasoned response.

Anonymous said...

What the BW-hating anon @ 1:09 fails to realize is that, even if the Rutgers girls and other young Black females are/were listening to that rap garbage that demeans them so, they are doing it NOT because they like being demeaned and insulted so, it is because they want to SUPPORT those losers because the Black female loves BM, and belives in supporting them right or wrong, through thick and thin, at all costs-her feelings be damned. The selflessness of the Black female continues to impress and amaze me, even though it infuriates because the BM had shown time and time again that he is NOT worthy of such love and support.


Think about that the next while you are gushing about "strong" White and Hispanic women.

Anonymous said...

Just as an example, how does the BM respond to such great love and support from the Black female? By running her down to other races, whining and crying like little babies and sissys about how BW have "attitudes", are "mean", "bossy", "not feminine" and other junk lies, abandoning her because she is "too dark" and does not have "good hair", blabbing about how "sexy" and "beautiful" Pamela Anderson and Vida Guerra are, and coming onto a Blog for BW & WM involved in IRR blabbing about how "strong" White and Hispanic women are.

And people wonder why more BW are now considering dating out, particularly with WM? The answer seems pretty damn obvious to me.

Anonymous said...

Wow, at the last 2 anonymous comments. I'm the anon @1:09 to whom you've responded. I suppose earlier in this series of comments some bm had "gushed" about White and Hispanic women and that you're confusing me with that person and that's why you've brought that up a couple of times. (I'm not saying I would or would not compliment them - "gush" I wouldn't - but I haven't here). Either you're confusing me with this other anonymous poster, or you just like to keep mentioning White and Hispanic women for some reason. Anyway, judging by your broad assertion as to why young black girls listen to hip hop (i.e., they love bm and will support them through thick/thin, they're selfless, etc.), I suppose you weren't one of those who earlier criticized my point that we could make some assumptions about what music the Rutgers girls listen to; that criticism launched against me was that we would have to poll all the players, we couldn't make this assumption based on their race, we'd have to follow their every move to make any assertion about their listening habits, blah, blah, blah. If you WERE one of those who made such point earlier, I would have to assume then that you've followed ALL black women around, or polled ALL black women, in order for you to be able to make the assertions you make about why black women listen to hip hop. You must be a busy beaver asking EVERY American black woman who listens to hip hop why she does so. Or maybe you're making one of those (I shudder to think) ASSUMPTIONS! In general, though, anonymous poster, you sound very angry/agitated. Don't take things so seriously, at least not blog comments. I'm nobody; my views, no matter how distasteful you find them, matter not. Relax. And thanks for the conversation.

Anonymous said...

I love how the anon @ 4:29 has purposefully ignored the comment that completely destroyed his argument (the post by anon @ 12:44) and continues to respond to the other ones that he thinks he can handle.

Anonymous said...

Anon, @ 4:29 you said "Youre nobody".

You got that right.

I guess the word "If" (Regarding my comments about young Black girls listening to rap) is beyond your reading comprehension skills.

I believe I hear your White or Hispanic (Or both, since that is how the likes of you "Roll") hoochie mamas calling you. Run along.

Anonymous said...

You know there is a point were bw just tune out these endless debates which are simply about defending bm, and just get on with the business of finding love for themselves.

you could be tied down for years arguing with folks who are invested in not understanding your point. At the end of the day for these men its just about putting up a defense for bm, its not about rectifying the situation. Bear that in mind.

PioneerValleyWoman said...

anonymous at 12:44 am

Like I said, the only way to describe the way many young Black men view women nowadays is full of hatred and resentment. I also notice that you blame the feminist movement for a lot of things, something most sexists do, and I would also like to remind you that racist whites also blame the Civil Rights Movement and Black freedom for many of the downfalls in today's society. Just something to think about as you struggle for things to blame a movement for equality for problems in the community because I know how the modern Black man hates to receive prejudice but just loves to dish it out, specifically when it comes to women :)

My observations:

And then out come these blanket statements about feminism, as though it has had no benefits for whatsoever for black women, and as though black nationalism (as defined by men with no real regard for women's interests as women) has the complete answer for all black women's needs, and as though black feminist thinkers have never existed...

Equal treatment feminism? Cultural/difference feminism? Dominance theory feminism? Critical race feminism? Global feminism?


All of this is "white women's feminism" which has nothing to do with black women?

daphne said...

Ah yes, the old "Black men use nigga as a form of endearment (we took the word back!) but white men never do" argument. Never mind that, in hip-hop music, nigga has also been used as a derogatory term (and that's what I've been told by other black men). Never mind that, while it's quite "reasonable" to assume that all or most young black women listen to said music, thereby rendering their ability to be offended useless by Imus' comments by a hypocrite who produces the very music he speaks against, you can't "reasonably" assume that a white man uses the word in the same "endearing" terms that a black man supposedly does. That's impossible! And since all of this discussion is centered around assumptions - let's throw out another one! Is it possible that some or all of the Rutgers team members have taken other action against the derogatory terms against black women in hip-hop music, yet we just don't know about it because the mainstream media didn't televise those actions? Sure, it is! However, I'm sure that assumption is unlikely because it doesn't marginalize those women's experiences. Didn't I just say that women are seeing through the crap and calling it out?

Bottom line: the argument doesn't hold water because it's all based on assumption - no known facts. The fact that it was expressed by an idiot like Whitlock is just icing on the cake.

And let's be honest - if a black man's experience was summarily dismissed by the assumption that "most or all young black men listen to hip-hop, so you can't get upset when a white person uses that same terminology," we'd see Al and Jesse all over the news, declaring that it's wrong to make assumptions about all or most black men. Surprisingly, you don't have those same men speaking so fervently against the degradation in hip-hop itself - just when it's a black/white issue. Please. We see the same arguments time and time again, usually accompanied by the same condescension that women can't possibly have the intelligence, analytical ability, the rationale to refute the arguments point by point (even in the face of that occurring). To borrow a phrase from Roslyn Holcomb - NEXT.

Janice said...

Wow, I didn't know his past. I feel stupid having sent a link to this article to WAOD. Learning everyday.

Anonymous said...

I made the Rutgers and "nigga" comments all of you are commenting back about. Again with the White and Hispanic women stuff. . . I don't get it. I never brought them up; you must be confusing me with some other anon. And it's not that I ignored the comments about feminism, et al., by anon @12:44; it's just that she/he (anon @12:44) is responding to points I didn't make, points by an anon other than me. Finally, Daphne, it's not reasonable to think those Rutgers girls took actions against derogatory terms in hip hop while it IS reasonable to think they listen to it. The former (actions against hip hop) would require exceptional behavior (e.g., marching, petitions, forming a student organization) which they certainly could have done, but it's unusual behavior so it can't be assumed based on them being young, black, and female. Listening to hip hop, however, is not exceptional behavior, requires little effort, and is very, very common among their demographic. So, it is reasonable to assume they listen to hip hop but not that they fight against it. They could have, but we can't assume they have; that'd be assuming too much. Lastly, whether Al of Jesse do or don't do something has no relevance to whether they should or should not. And if there is hip hop where "nigga" is used derogatorily, then anyone who listens to that particular music could NOT claim hurt when a white person uses the same term derogatorily. (I question whether such hip hop exists, but I'm not a big consumer of it so you could be right). Same for the Rutgers girls regarding the rest of hip hop that speaks derogatorily about women: can't listen to it voluntarily and then claim hurt when someone else says the same stuff with the same intent. And we can't dismiss arguments because they're based on assumptions or no one could ever have an opinion unless he/she first conducted a social science study, and blogs then would cease to exist.

Anonymous said...

@ Anon at 9:45: You are so right. That is all fools like that want to do is defend BM and their "rights" to abandon BW, slander BW, and chase after WW, HW, AW, and whoever else they can srape up who is not a BW. Tuning them out is great advice. Hopefully one day then they will just shrivel up and blow away.


@ Pioneervalleywoman: Great points. Black Feminisim certainly has merit, no matter what these BW-hating losers have to say. They just hate Feminism because they hate ANYTHING that has the potential to help BW see throught their never-ending bull.


@ daphne: The excuses from the likes of them is NEVER going to stop. Just like the defense of BM no matter what kind of garbage they do from the likes of them is NEVER going to stop, just like the hatred of BW from the likes of them is NEVER going to stop. No matter what kind of tired, lame spin they try to put on it.


@janice. do not worry, it's not your fault. Just another demonstration of the faith that BW have in certain characters that they will do the right thing. It is not your fault that they are phony, full of hot air losers more concerned with White Playboy bunnys, Vida Guerra, and defending their DBRBM homies.

Anonymous said...

I meant to say "scrape" up. "srape" is not a word lol.

Taylor-Sara said...

first, Aimee as usual you were fantastic. Your arguments are always on point, cogent and perspicuous. Next, the anon who was too much of a coward to even give his name, yet wanted to defend sorry ass BM who disparage, degrade, endanger and harm BW in hundreds of dif. ways every day. I would have just cut him off from my blog long ago, but that's just me... He's just a troll coming here with the intention of throwing a monkey wrench in the discussion as usual. But to have the nerve to defend a asshole like imus who disrespects college bound athletes, who are trying to do something with their lives, is just unbelievable! Then these ridiculous assumptions about the music they listen to... How about we assume, despite the fact that you speak quite well, you are ignorant, damaged, and clearly an asshole. No wonder sistas are waking up... free at last, free at last, thank God almighty we are free at last....

Anonymous said...

@ anon at 2:49: You just DO NOT get it. The Rutgers women were the VICTIMS here. It is THEY who were insulted, it is THEY who were hmiliated in front of the world, it was THEY who had their honor stepped on. Why is that so damn hard to understand? I do not give a damn what they lisen to, they DID NOT deserve to be spoken about in such an ugly, disgusting manner. LEAVE THEM ALONE.

Anonymous said...

taylor-sara, (pretty name!) you tell 'em!

Anonymous said...

Despite all this vitriol launched at me, I admire and like you women (yes, I'm assuming it's mostly women here): you're smart, thoughtful, involved with the world. I do think, though, that you're so blinded by hatred for bm that you've not heard most of my comments really. I'm no psychologist so take it with a grain of salt, but perhaps some of you have been so hurt by bm in the past that you assume all black men seek to degrade, disparage you. If this indeed is the case, I suppose the attacks launched at me are understandable; you're human and you've been hurt. But I've not said one thing here disparaging black women, or admiring some other racial/ethnic classification of women. My only point was that the Rutgers girls could not reasonably claim hurt from words to which they (likely) voluntarily subject themselves. Not only have I not disparaged black women, I've not defended hip hop or Imus and the language used by either. Had I my way, I'd clean up the language in hip hop, but it's a free society; can't do that easily. And I didn't come here to throw a monkey wrench into anything; I assumed this comments section was here for more than for each reader to slap the other on the back and say, "good point!," so I joined in with a contrary opinion. I'll comment no further. Again, thanks for the discussion; I enjoyed the thrust and parry of a good debate with intelligent minds.

PioneerValleyWoman said...

I for one have no anger/hatred of black men in general. I have not been hurt by them, and I love my black male relatives.

I just have serious problems with some ideologies/perspectives in the community which can be used to vilify black women and then excuse their abuse at the hands of people who act like they have no respect for black women, the same women who could be their sisters, daughters, etc.

Let's say that at least one of the young women listened to hip-hop that had some misogynistic tones.

There is a big difference between listening to the music in an lyrics does not apply to oneself as an individual and getting "called out of one's name" in the national/international media by a prominent white man and then have prominent black men agree with the hateful, unwarranted assessment of oneself and one's behavior.

PioneerValleyWoman said...

Some typos

There is a big difference between listening to the music in an lyrics does

rewritten:

There is a big difference between listening to the music in an informal setting, and enjoying the beat, as an example, with the full realization that the lyrics do not apply

Anonymous said...

Anon @ 4:07: So now you play the victim role, call people standing up to your bs attacks on the Rutgers women & BW in general, and you unconditional defense of BM at all costs "vitriol", and throw a little hissy fit because someone who loves BW and wants to see them happy, defended, stand up for themselves, appreciated, etc encourages them with some cheers.


You say you will not comment further? I certainly hope not.

So now when people do not stand up and cheer for BM and their White, Hispanic, Asian, or whatever else except Black girlfriends and their tearing down/slander of BW, it means that they are "Blind with hatred" for BM. What a joke. What a bunch of whining crybabies.

Stick to your WW, HW, or whoever else not is Black & female. Your ilk is not worthy of BW.

Anonymous said...

^^Thats true. That argument is pretty retarded. Its like saying that because someone watches violent action movies and then gets robbed or attacked on the street they can't claim hurt because they voluntarily subject themselves to that type of behavior through movies.

Even if you are so-called "not defending it" its still pretty stupid to bring up because whatever type of entertainment someone provides for themselves (music, movies, etc.) doesn't have any bearing on the way others treat them.

Anonymous said...

Great points anon at 5:11.

Anonymous said...

That isn't a great point I don't think. A person who WATCHES violence cannot be held to have acquisced to being SUBJECTED to violent ACTS, but only to WATCHING violent acts. So, a person who watches violent movies could not then complain when exposed to violent IMAGES, but could validly complain when exposed to violent ACTS committed UPON THEM. With regard to the Rutgers girls: the music subjects them to SPEECH, and Imus subjected them to SPEECH.

Pioneervalleywoman (boy, that's long), I would agree that there is a difference between listening to music that does not apply directly to oneself and being singled out. But the Rutgers girls were subjected to demeaning descriptions in both hip hop and through Imus for the same reason: membership in a group. Hip Hop targets them for being members of a group called "black girls," and Imus targeted them for being members of a group called "Rutgers women's b-ball team." Imus (as far as I recall) never targetted an individual player; had he, that would be different from what the girls subject themselves to through music, which is more generally directed at them merely as black girls. So, I see these "attacks" (both directed at the girls b/c of group membership and not individually) as analogous. Granted, one group ("black girls") is quite larger than the other ("Rutgers team"), but still, the attack was dispersed among a number and not to an individual. Ok, now I'm done; can't help myself b/c I like talking to you all. Have a nice day.

PioneerValleyWoman said...

anonymous:

Granted, one group ("black girls") is quite larger than the other ("Rutgers team"), but still, the attack was dispersed among a number and not to an individual.

My response:

I also go by "PVW"

True, they were targeted as a group, but Imus' attack was at specific individuals in that group, although he didn't single them out, but it led to greater scrutiny of them as individuals--a group of women in a majority black team to a majority white team, was it a NC team? Can't recall...

But in any event, it brought others to scrutinize them as individuals, to look at them and assess their looks and appearance, which is where some of the black male commentators chimed in agreement.

He also said things like they looked like men, didn't he also say they looked like convicts, and like "nappy-headed h's..," which is what more people tend to focus on...

Yan said...

Anonymous,

Why don't you come up with a moniker or at least sign an initial? If not, you can't really complain about being accused of making statements posted by other anonymous readers.

Again, I think you are assuming too much about the Rutger's Team's taste in music. With the growing influence of What About Our Daughters, and before that, the Spelman students who protested Nelly's visit and caused it to be cancelled, it's a stretch to assume all teenage or college age black girls are still listening to hip hop. I stopped listening to it back in the 90's when I was in high school. I'm sure I'm not the only one.

But whether they listened to it or not is beside the point. It has been mentioned numerous times in articles that usually black women hp hop consumers do NOT feel the lyrics are directed at them or women like them. Indeed, in Hip-Hop: Beyond Beats & Rhymes, male fans who were interviewed said that they were NOT talking about women like your sister your mother, etc, but about "women that are trying to take get a brother for his money".

Of course, the thing about that is that ALL black women are assumed to be b*tches and hoes until proven otherwise. And as more bw realize this, the more they turn away from hip hop.

BTW, info about that documentary can be found at
http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/hiphop

So even if those women did willingly subject themselves to those kinds of demeaning lyrics, they more likely than not did not feel the rappers where talking about THEM or even women like them. It wasn't personal. However when Imus went on the attack, it quite clearly WAS personal. And I'm sure I'm not the only one who felt it was commentary about ALL black women, so I took it personally as well.

Also, Imus added the whole "nappy-headed" bit. I might have missed something in the 16 years since I stopped listening to hip hop, but I don't remember hair texture being a common theme in the lyrics. Now I visit sites like nappturality.com, etc, does that mean I'm not allowed to be offended if I walk into work tomorrow and the boss says something like, "Oh, why is your hair so nappy today,".

Also, it is perfectly valid to mention the hypocritical pursuits of Jason Whitlock. He is a creator and purveyor of music that devalues bw. Since when does the victimizer get to dictate how his targets should react? This goes back to the same old tired defense of hip hop- it's ok to create these works of hate because people buy them.

Anonymous said...

Anon at 6:14, defending BW is not in you, so why are you here? I think you are missed over at the "BM For WW & HW" forums & Blogs.


Hurry up and join them! You are missing those riveting conversations about "Phat White booty", and "Hot Azz Latinas".

Anonymous said...

Good post yan.

Anonymous said...

Hi All, What does the acronym DBR mean?

Anonymous said...

Anon & @ 7:40, hello & it means: "Damaged Beyond Repair".

Anonymous said...

Anon @ 6:15, one would have to assume that watching a piece of entertainment somehow doesn't effect you or "subject you to something" as much as listening to it does which is, looking at it psychologically, absolutely ridiculous. You cannot create parameters for your argument and expect everyone to just believe then just because they support your point better. Especially when the parameters contradict when put into another situation. The type of entertainment you subject yourself to either influences your treatment by others or not, it can't just be music or whatever other type of entertainment fits your argument at the time. Try again.

Anonymous said...

I agree with you this gentleman that seems to want to justify the mistreatment of Black females. Lets all just assume since those women are Black and young they listen to rap music that degrades women and therefore it is completely just to degrade them personally. Following this, racial profiling against Black males is completely justified and they shouldn't cry foul since Black men don't only listen to but create this kind of music that talks about being abusive to women, being criminals and thugs, murdering, etc. and puts them in such a horrible light. Since we can assume most young Black women subject themselves to music that calls females hoes, we must assume that most young Black males subject themselves to music that portrays them as vile, bottom feeding criminals and drains on society. I guess if we go by what music tells us, Black America should just be treated like crap in general.

After all, the music told us so :)

Anonymous said...

^^^Game. Set and Match. LOL

Anonymous said...

knockoutchick says:

I think one of the reasons we see BM with such indifference towards black women and children is that they have so little invested in us.

Most older black males so 40 or 50 have NOT been active in their childrens lives. They have not raised their daughters, spent hours taking them to piano lessons, skating or basketball camp.

I do believe a BM who has actively been a part of raising his female children would be appalled to hear someone refer to young black female college students as "nappy headed hoes" and he would stand up to defend them, not throw disparaging comments in their direction. If he had been "down in the trenches" doing the real work...braiding hair, blowing noses, attending PTA meeting and signing the checks for costly private school fees...that Dad would be pissed off to hear young women like his own insulted.

The TWO older BM I know that are actually towing the line are VERY defensive of their daughters. They expect the best for them.

They have put their heart, soul, mind and paychecks into securing the best for their children, they love their daughters...and those men are not looking for their daughters to marry the dust bin man or "uplift a brother". I think many of these younger guys would be suprised to hear what older BM think who have actually put their time and $$$$$$ into thier families.

Since children are an "abstract" to so many BM. I thnk they can make these comments that seem so disconnected.

PioneerValleyWoman said...

Anon 9:40pm:

Excellent analogy!

Anon 10:35 am:

They have put their heart, soul, mind and paychecks into securing the best for their children, they love their daughters...and those men are not looking for their daughters to marry the dust bin man or "uplift a brother". I think many of these younger guys would be suprised to hear what older BM think who have actually put their time and $$$$$$ into thier families.

My response:

So true! My dad is in his 70s, and he was without question a dad who was actively involved in raising me with my mom. I always knew I was loved and cherished.

He always said girls and women should be respected. He too is dismayed at what is going on today.

When I married, I made sure I found a man who treated me the way I was treated growing up. Some time after the ceremony, he told my husband, you need to upkeep the tradition of "spoiling me rotten."

Husband makes sure he does: I'm the center of his world!

PVW

Anonymous said...

If we are to be consistent, then we must equally attack the numerous female rappers who routinely refer to black men as "niggas" and "tricks" while also referring to themselves and other women as "bitches" and "hoes".

Why praise Eve for having a white boyfriend when she has had a history of referring to black men as "niggas" and glorifying thug behavior in her music? When will we attack Gangster Boo, Trina, Missy Elliot, Da Brat, Lil Kim, etc. for calling black men "tricks" and "niggas". There is a long list of female rappers who do this.

I have grown up becoming quite familiar with the way that black females commonly refer to black males as "niggas". "Niggas ain't sh--." "That nigga is fine". As vile as that term is, why do females use it to refer to black men so much, yet become sensitive about being called vile terms themselves?

Anonymous said...

Most older black males so 40 or 50 have NOT been active in their childrens lives.

That's a lie, yet you will continue saying it.

Aimee said...

knockoutchick says:

I think one of the reasons we see BM with such indifference towards black women and children is that they have so little invested in us . . . Since children are an "abstract" to so many BM. I thnk they can make these comments that seem so disconnected.

I remember years ago when BET was still trying to be relevant, they had some talk show on were BM "had there say" every week, and on one of the shows a black male in his 20s stated that he really couldn't see ever marrying, because of all the struggles he had to deal with as a BM in the world today he barely had the energy to care for himself, let alone a wife and children.

I was pretty young, but I rememeber his words making a powerful impression on me, because he was openly articulating an attitude I had started to encounter among many of the young BM I met--an attitude that suggested they were entitled not to make commitments to women because of the "burden" of white racism. Implicit in this attitude is the belief that BW, and even black children, have no right to ask anything of BM, that they should be content to give without getting anything in return, in order to "make up" for what BM have to go through in the white world.

Of course, this lone wolf mentality hasn't prevented males who think this way from biologically reproducing; but it has certainly prevented them from being husbands and any meaningful semblance of fathers.

I think your point about so many DBRBM having little invested in BW and children is incredibly important. Their disconnect from BW and children is not only figurative, but literal. It means a lack of responsibility, but it also means a lack of foundation, and I think it is this lack of foundation that is really causing so much of the downward spiral that Cosby and Whitlock decry. I just want to see BM leadership with the courage to confront this reality.

Anonymous said...

an attitude that suggested they were entitled not to make commitments to women because of the "burden" of white racism.

When did one have to be entitled to not make commitments? You all act as if each male has an obligation to marry a female. Why should a single man with no children be obligated to marry? You marry because you want to marry and because you have met someone that you want to marry. If a man does not wish to marry, that doesn't make him damaged.

The example you mention is of a man who states a non-desire to marry nor have children. So what's the problem? If a man avoids marriage and children because he feels that he doesn't have it in him to be a husband and father, then I say that that is a responsible individual.

Anonymous said...

Most older black males so 40 or 50 have NOT been active in their childrens lives.

How exactly do you know this? This is another example of taking this 70% number and coming up with all kinds of conclusions.

Studies have shown that 55% of black children have spent some time in a household where couples are cohabitating. If 30% of black children are born in wedlock, then that leaves 85% of black children having spent at least some time in a household with two parents.

Also, just because a man doesn't live in the household doesn't mean that he is not involved with the children. So your statement is erroneous.

Yan said...

Anonymous,
When did one have to be entitled to not make commitments? You all act as if each male has an obligation to marry a female. Why should a single man with no children be obligated to marry? You marry because you want to marry and because you have met someone that you want to marry. If a man does not wish to marry, that doesn't make him damaged.

The example you mention is of a man who states a non-desire to marry nor have children. So what's the problem? If a man avoids marriage and children because he feels that he doesn't have it in him to be a husband and father, then I say that that is a responsible individual.


If that were the reality in the bc. then no it would not be a problem. But the case of bm bragging about how many children they have sired, while taking care of NONE of them, is all too common. Such men feel entitled to as much uncommitted sex as possible, with as many women as possible without giving a thought to pregnancy or disease prevention.

I really have to wonder about the broke brothers in the hood who gleefully latch onto these stereotypes of black women as gold diggers. It seems to me that the definition of gold digger has morphed from being a woman who only seeks financial gain to being a woman who asks ANYTHING from a man, such as respect, love, commitment, or even basic human decency.

A truly responsible man would also take care not to create children he knew he would abandon.

It also bears examining why so many black men of my generation (born in 70's and later)place such a low value on partnering with women and raising children. I see it as more often than not as being contemptuously dismissed rather than as being fear of being an inadequate husband and father. Don't get me wrong, you see this increasingly with white men also, but it is much more common in the bc. There was an article in the Washington Post last year, 'Marriage is for White People'. SMH.

However, I do not agree about men in their 40's/50's. My dad is in that generation as are the fathers of my bw friends- none of them had absentee fathers.

Anonymous said...

I am a Black male but not from America. My girlfriend posts here and told me about this blog and I just wanna ask the other brothas that are posting here and defending calling these women "nappy headed hoes" why they are doing it? You're coming off making all of us look bad because y'all are basically fighting for the right to mistreat women. You're just proving a lot of these scorned, bitter women's point that Black men are DBR or whatever the acronym is. If you're going to defend us defend the lot of us that are actually good.

To the sistas here, I understand that there are some niggas out there that aren't about shit but don't drag every Black man into that boat. There are a lot of sistas that aren't about shit either but there are a lot that are too. You just have to find the right one for you.

Yan said...

Also,
Why praise Eve for having a white boyfriend when she has had a history of referring to black men as "niggas" and glorifying thug behavior in her music? When will we attack Gangster Boo, Trina, Missy Elliot, Da Brat, Lil Kim, etc. for calling black men "tricks" and "niggas". There is a long list of female rappers who do this.

Who here is uplifting these women and praising them? to be honest, I don't even know who half of them are. I don't buy their crap either nor do I call bm by these terms. Stop trying to deflect and change the topic.

Anonymous said...

knockoutchick says:

Hey Aimee and PVW!

Great points!

I say...think of someone you truly love and how you feel when someone makes a negative comment about them! Your first reaction is..."Hey, wait a minute, now"!!!!!!

I'll say it again...as some anon commenter keeps denying the reality. MOST 40 or 50 year old BM have NOT been active in their childrens lives. This is why we have such difficulty dealing with the problems in the BC...so many people refuse to believe the vastness of our ills.

You'll say MOST BM aren't working and they will deny, deny, deny...deny.

You say MOST BM aren't active in their childrens lives, and they deny...yet look at the comments here and the behaviour of BM in larger society.

Are our eyes fooling us???

Aimee said...

Anonymous said...

When did one have to be entitled to not make commitments? You all act as if each male has an obligation to marry a female.

Not at all. I'd say that each human being has an obligation to be honest with those that they enter into relationships with, and an obligation to treat one another with mutual respect.

Males who enjoy promiscous sex but suggest that women who behave the same way are "hoes," and men who claim they want no strings attached and then impregnate women with children that they will not support, and who resort to cry-baby hysterics about their struggles with "the man" when confronted about their dishonesty and lack of responsibility, are not entitled to engage in such behavior.

If you really don't want commitments, they are quite easy to avoid. What the DBR want is to have others commit to their support, desires, needs and well-being, without the obligation of reciprocity. They have no such entitlement.

Anonymous said...

knockoutchick says:

"a black male in his 20s stated that he really couldn't see ever marrying, because of all the struggles he had to deal with as a BM in the world today he barely had the energy to care for himself, let alone a wife and children."

This is why I say the "BC" doesn't exist. Because our men have NO desire to actively take part in the "greater good". It's every man for himself!

The fact the anon male poster doesn't find this young mans comments frightening is a sign of the disconnect.

If the MEN in a community see no need to be an active because they just "barely take care of themselves"...we have issues.

I have heard a LOT of BM say that...yet they have had a number of children, live in GF's, etc.

A grown man should be ASHMAMED to come in public and blame white racism for him doing the "least" that he can do...and struggling to excel.

Anonymous said...

knockoutchick says:

Regarding most BM not being active in their childrens lives...I'll revise that and say BM in their 30's and 40's.

I do admit our older generation of men were more responsible. As I said that older generation that actively loved and supported their daughters...have no love for the younger men who are behaving like absentee sperm donors.

Anonymous said...

^^I agree. I used to work with an older BM [50ish] and he used to always express his dissapointment in today's BM.

Anonymous said...

knockoutchick says:

"Studies have shown that 55% of black children have spent some time in a household where couples are cohabitating. If 30% of black children are born in wedlock, then that leaves 85% of black children having spent at least some time in a household with two parents."

You are twisting stats here.

Even if the stat that 55% of black children have spent SOME time in a household with two parents" were true, what does that mean???

Some time???

We are talking about actively being a part of a childs life...not spending "some time".

That reminds me of the line "I pay child support, when I can".

Anonymous said...

knockoutchick says:

Sorry for the typos :-)

Sneaking peeks back and forth at work. I know we have a couple of Professors who post here. Mea culpa!

Will try to spell check and stop typing so fast......peace

Anonymous said...

If that were the reality in the bc. then no it would not be a problem. But the case of bm bragging about how many children they have sired, while taking care of NONE of them, is all too common.

Those are the actions of low class ghetto black folks. I can equally show where the females of those communities show similar ignorance; about the times when I've heard a female who sees a guy she finds attractive say, "damn, I want to have that nigga's baby" or the numerous women who continue to have babies by multiple men.

Such men feel entitled to as much uncommitted sex as possible, with as many women as possible without giving a thought to pregnancy or disease prevention.

Entitled? It's more a case of desiring uncommitted sex and getting it when opportunity affords. It has nothing to do with entitlement. As far as giving a thought to pregnancy or desease prevention, is that not a two way street? Absent of rape, women have 100% say as to whether they spread their legs or not and whether protection is used or not. When unprotected sex goes on, at least the man has the assumption that contraception has been taken care of. The females knows 100% whether it has been taken care of or not.

I really have to wonder about the broke brothers in the hood who gleefully latch onto these stereotypes of black women as gold diggers. It seems to me that the definition of gold digger has morphed from being a woman who only seeks financial gain to being a woman who asks ANYTHING from a man, such as respect, love, commitment, or even basic human decency.

No it hasn't. The stereotype refers to materialism.

A truly responsible man would also take care not to create children he knew he would abandon.

How many men do you feel purposely impregnate females out of wedlock. Very few. The irresponsibility is not being cautious in the first place and the female who participates is equally responsible for allowing herself to be impregnated by a man who has not shown himself to be committed to her.

It also bears examining why so many black men of my generation (born in 70's and later)place such a low value on partnering with women and raising children.

It has been examined and determined that there is no low value on such partnering. Basically, men are much more cautious about getting into marriage and are more picky about finding that right one than ever before. This often delays marriage for long periods. Practically all men aspire to marrying a soulmate. It's just that most of the women they meet, they wouldn't view as their soulmate. All to often, we see the negatives of marriage when viewing the hell our parents and older aquaintances go through.

I see it as more often than not as being contemptuously dismissed rather than as being fear of being an inadequate husband and father. Don't get me wrong, you see this increasingly with white men also, but it is much more common in the bc. There was an article in the Washington Post last year, 'Marriage is for White People'. SMH.

And in that article, it is shown that when men are more inclined to marry (in their 30s) women have become less inclined. Also, the article quotes black women as expressing a disinterest in marrying due to not wanting to lose their freedom.

Yan said...

And in that article, it is shown that when men are more inclined to marry (in their 30s) women have become less inclined. Also, the article quotes black women as expressing a disinterest in marrying due to not wanting to lose their freedom.

It hardly seems like we even read same the article. The "women don't want to get married because it means giving up their freedom" was the opinion of one black single mother. What have you seen on any of these blogs gives you the impression black women by and large do not want to get married? Indeed, none of us would be in hysterics over the inflated 70% statistic if we didn't care.

The article also doesn't address the fact that even when men marry later, they still usually marry women who are younger. So 30-something women still have a smaller pool to choose from and there is a point where you have to lower your standards so low, you're better off alone. And if a woman's only experience has been with DBR men, then I can hardly blame her for throwing in the towel.

You are so right. Pregnancy and disease prevention is a two-way street, but yet you are trying to pin it all on women yet again. Trotting out the spectre of the poor hapless man who "thought it was taken care of". How many men even ask? And furthermore, with all of these stereotypes of women being "out to burn a brother", why don't they make sure it's taken care of?

Also, a condom would take care of both STDs and impregnation, but so many men don't want to "lose the sensation". There's no other form of birth control on the market that addresses STDs.

And as far as women having intentionally getting pregnant and having "100% control of whether they open their legs". Let's think for a moment about who's the bigger fool here and who is doing the most damage.

If you have any knowledge of biology, you understand that a man's only reproductive choices occur BEFORE conception. What kind of fool willingly gives up the only control he has? Especially knowing, if he even has 2 nickels to rub together, he will be legally required to make child support payments for the next 18 years and in some states, even longer. I would call that one hell of an incentive to be proactive and wear a prophylactic. I would not put myself in the position to have someone else be in control of my fate for the next 2 decades.

Also, how many women do you know who are pregnant by multiple men at the same time? Barring multiple births, even the most irresponsible woman can only have one baby per year. What is the limit for a man? His capacity to bring neglected babies into the world is only limited by his ability to find sex partners.

Anonymous said...

Yan and the anonymous person to whom you're responding: very intelligent commentary. Kudos.

Yan said...

P.S. If you are signing over all your reproductive decision-making to a woman who is on the pill, you might want to ask the following questions, instead of ASSUMING everything has been taken care of for you. All of these items impact the efficacy of the pill.

1. Did you take the pill today? Do you take it at the same time every day?

2. Where do you store your medication? Is it out of direct sunlight where it will not be subjected to temps that are too high or too low?

3. Do you eat or drink grapefruit or grapefruit juice?

4. Have you recently taken antibiotics or an oral antifungal medication?

5. Have you taken St. John’s Wort.

But most people embarking on casual sexual encounters don't bother asking that many questions. Keep on "thinking it was taken care of" and abdicating the only control you have.

Anonymous said...

knockoutchick says:

Yes, Yan is a sharp cookie indeed.

Yan is the aunt at Thanksgiving dinner who calmly states the facts while everyone else is slinging mashed potatoes across the table:-)

Anonymous said...

Yan said...
It hardly seems like we even read same the article. The "women don't want to get married because it means giving up their freedom" was the opinion of one black single mother. What have you seen on any of these blogs gives you the impression black women by and large do not want to get married?

"These blogs"? Come on now. This is one of the delusions with this little IR, "womanist" blog circle. You all have convinced yourselves that your opinions represent black women in general. You are far from the truth. That is the problem when you attempt to make your personal experiences out to be reality when those experiences are overwhelmingly just yours. All of sudden, your blogs take what you consider to be a lot of hits, and you believe that IR are "skyrocketing". Stormfront has thousands of members. I wouldn't say that they represent white folks as a whole.

Indeed, none of us would be in hysterics over the inflated 70% statistic if we didn't care.

Yes, on this blog. Aside from this circle, few black women are in hysterics over this inflated number. What we have here is simply a group of women who have been scorned and black men are the targets of their ire. This is a perceive a way toward payback by promoting relationships with white men.

The article also doesn't address the fact that even when men marry later, they still usually marry women who are younger. So 30-something women still have a smaller pool to choose from and there is a point where you have to lower your standards so low, you're better off alone. And if a woman's only experience has been with DBR men, then I can hardly blame her for throwing in the towel.

If this is the case, then women in their 20s should have their pick of men in their 30s But in truth there is no significan age difference in most black marriages.

You are so right. Pregnancy and disease prevention is a two-way street, but yet you are trying to pin it all on women yet again.

How am I pinning it all on the woman if I said "two way street"?

Trotting out the spectre of the poor hapless man who "thought it was taken care of". How many men even ask? And furthermore, with all of these stereotypes of women being "out to burn a brother", why don't they make sure it's taken care of?

Because black people in general tend to be slaves to their immediate desires to a greater extent than other folks. As I said, it is a two way street, yet from my point of view, it seems that the ladies in this blog circle put total blame on the men.

Also, a condom would take care of both STDs and impregnation, but so many men don't want to "lose the sensation". There's no other form of birth control on the market that addresses STDs.

And so many women don't want to lose the sensation. You have yet to explain why non uses of protection is moreso the fault of males.

And as far as women having intentionally getting pregnant and having "100% control of whether they open their legs". Let's think for a moment about who's the bigger fool here and who is doing the most damage.

If you have any knowledge of biology, you understand that a man's only reproductive choices occur BEFORE conception. What kind of fool willingly gives up the only control he has? Especially knowing, if he even has 2 nickels to rub together, he will be legally required to make child support payments for the next 18 years and in some states, even longer. I would call that one hell of an incentive to be proactive and wear a prophylactic. I would not put myself in the position to have someone else be in control of my fate for the next 2 decades.


Uhm, who pays the biggest price for an unwanted pregnancy? Lets be real. A guy can go on with his life while loosing 20-25% of his paycheck. Being the single custodial parent is quite life changing.

Also, how many women do you know who are pregnant by multiple men at the same time? Barring multiple births, even the most irresponsible woman can only have one baby per year. What is the limit for a man? His capacity to bring neglected babies into the world is only limited by his ability to find sex partners.

But he cannot bring one child into this world without a female. So either way, each child is the result of the actions of a man and a woman.

J said...

Quoting the anon above me:

"A guy can go on with his life while loosing 20-25% of his paycheck. Being the single custodial parent is quite life changing."

Thats for pointing out the exact problem in the community and making it even more obvious that you co-sign DBRBM behavior. Instead of feeling as if they actually have to be there for their children and take care of them, they feel they are somehow getting off easy because they assume the woman will be the single parent. As if the father doesn't really need to be there. Amazing that a lot of Black men nowadays really relate out of wedlock birth to monetary child support rather than time and dedication to their seed.

Aimee said...

J said...

Quoting the anon above me:

"A guy can go on with his life while loosing 20-25% of his paycheck. Being the single custodial parent is quite life changing."

Thats for pointing out the exact problem in the community and making it even more obvious that you co-sign DBRBM behavior. Instead of feeling as if they actually have to be there for their children and take care of them, they feel they are somehow getting off easy because they assume the woman will be the single parent.


Exactly. On one hand, he's arguing that men and women are "equally responsible"; on the other, he acknowledges that they clearly are not, since mothers are almost always custodial parents, and a man is free to "go on with his life" after handing over 20% of his paycheck--assuming that he doesn't run away from even that little bit of responsibility, as is typical.

Our anonymous friend also doesn't acknowledge that men and women are equally free to abandon their children if they so choose--virtually every state in the country has laws that allows a woman to drop her infant off at a police station or hospital emergency room, and "go on with her life." Women are also free to give an unwanted child up for adoption.

The reality is that there is simply a greater proportion of men in our community who feel free to walk away from their familial obligations than women. Why is it considered sacrilege to make this simple observation of fact? Why are we required to cling to the mythology of "equal responsibility" when reality does not bear that contention out? Why can't the people who say they want to see change and improvement in our community openly articulate and squarely face this reality?

Yan said...

Anonymous,

You were the one who first said men were being responsible in walking away from marriage and fatherhood but then painted them as blameless victims who were duped into parenthood. You also posted some unsupported and meaningless stats such as "Studies have shown that 55% of black children have spent some time in a household where couples are cohabitating."

Do you have any idea how little sense that statement makes? That could mean these kids were living with their grandma and grandpa. It could mean they spent the night in a homeless shelter "where a couple was cohabitating".

When you portray men as hapless victims in the creation of children they are not taking care of, you are putting 100% of the blame on women. Especially with that old line about "keeping their legs closed". Can men not "keep it in their pants" or are you saying it's too much to expect them to exercise self-control?

Yes, women bear more of the burden for raising their children. Society as a whole bears more of a burden from the wholesale abandonment of children by their fathers, especially considering the far greater capacity of men to create pregnancies. A man cannot bring a child into the world without a woman, but neither can a woman have babies with multiple men at the same time.

If men suffer less from the pregnancies they carelessly create, all the lower the possibility that they will be responsible enough not to make that same mistake repeatedly with many other women.

You also have not explained why you don't think the responsibility for men to prevent pregnancy in the first place is not greater since biology dictates that is the only control they have. Women have options before and after conception so they still have a way out, guys don't. If a man is being so responsible by saying he does not want to marry or be a family man, then certainly I will expect him to ACT responsibly and take precautions.

Women in their 20s should have their pick of men in their 30s But in truth there is no significant age difference in most black marriages. Facts please, I'm tired of doing all the work here, so please back your stats up at least once.

You don't have facts, except the ones you make up on the spot you don't have good concepts, so now you are resorting to the "bitter black man hater" tactic. So predictable.

1. Why do we have to have been spurned by DBR BM to call them on out their bs? I didn't grow up around DBR men and I have never dated DBR men. How can you be spurned by someone you would never give the time of day to? But I am incensed by the havoc DBRBM wreak in the black community. And I'm sick of bw being left to clean up the mess. It is not about payback. It is about black women spending more energy on getting on with their lives instead of trying to get reform no-good men. Are all black men, DBRBM? Knowing my father, my other male relatives, and the upstanding black husbands of my friends, I would never say that. But it's time to move past the ones that are DBR.

2. It's just these blogs that think there is a marriage crisis for black women? Is that why Essence mag runs articles about man-sharing, finding "good" men in prison? Is that the New York Times, Washington Post, broadcast news programs, and scholarly journals cover the issues of the declining black marriage rate and interracial marriage on such a regular basis?
Even you cannot seriously believe some of the things you have written.

3.You think people are taking the number of visits to these blogs as an indication of bw's increasing interest and involvement in ir unions? The interest and participation came first, the blogs came after. Before these blogs existed they were still reports on bw's changing attitudes about ir dating and, if you weren't so threatened by the idea, even you would admit you see a lot more bw/wm couples now than you did even ten years ago.

At any rate, I'm done with you and your DBR-apologist static. You have nothing worthwhile to say.
___________

Thanks for the compliments other Anon and KOC. I've given the wrong impression,though. I'm not the cool and dispassionate type at all!

Yan said...

You all have convinced yourselves that your opinions represent black women in general. You are far from the truth. That is the problem when you attempt to make your personal experiences out to be reality when those experiences are overwhelmingly just yours.

Yes, I'm sure you, cowardly and pompous anonymous, are the final authority on the hopes, dreams, and experiences of black women. Get real.

Anonymous said...

J said...

Thats for pointing out the exact problem in the community and making it even more obvious that you co-sign DBRBM behavior.

What exactly gives you the false impression that I co-sign that behavior?

Instead of feeling as if they actually have to be there for their children and take care of them, they feel they are somehow getting off easy because they assume the woman will be the single parent.

First of all, being there for your children and marrying your baby's mother are two different things. There are many fathers who do their best despite not being with the mother. The ideal situation is a two parent household, yet a loveless marriage can be a detriment. The solution is to avoid pregnancies when there is no love between the couple. Both male and female have equal responsibility in this.

Now lets take an analogy. Two individuals are equally responsible for abiding by the laws. But if one of those individuals is already on probation, wouldn't it seem that there would be be more urgency for that person to follow all laws?

Likewise, wouldn't it seem more urgent for the woman to take precautions since she will almost always bear the brunt of responsibility for rearing the child?

As if the father doesn't really need to be there. Amazing that a lot of Black men nowadays really relate out of wedlock birth to monetary child support rather than time and dedication to their seed.

I don't see your point. I refer to monetary child support because it is the only legal obligation he has toward the child. Other than that, he could choose to not be burdened.

Aimee said...
Exactly. On one hand, he's arguing that men and women are "equally responsible"; on the other, he acknowledges that they clearly are not, since mothers are almost always custodial parents, and a man is free to "go on with his life" after handing over 20% of his paycheck--assuming that he doesn't run away from even that little bit of responsibility, as is typical.

You're confused. Both are equally responsible for taking precautions. One bears a greater burden for not taking those precautions.

Our anonymous friend also doesn't acknowledge that men and women are equally free to abandon their children if they so choose--virtually every state in the country has laws that allows a woman to drop her infant off at a police station or hospital emergency room, and "go on with her life." Women are also free to give an unwanted child up for adoption.

Then tell why 99.9% of the time do women of all races take on the burden when the men are not around? Could it be the innate motherly instinct? Either way, the FACT is that the woman almost always bears the main burden when the father is not with them.

The reality is that there is simply a greater proportion of men in our community who feel free to walk away from their familial obligations than women. Why is it considered sacrilege to make this simple observation of fact? Why are we required to cling to the mythology of "equal responsibility" when reality does not bear that contention out? Why can't the people who say they want to see change and improvement in our community openly articulate and squarely face this reality?

So you are saying that men aren't equally responsible for the babies they make? Wow, you've just given men a pass to not take care of their children. "We don't need to take care of our children. Yan said we are not responsible for them". Way to go Yan.


You were the one who first said men were being responsible in walking away from marriage and fatherhood but then painted them as blameless victims who were duped into parenthood.

Learn to read Yan. I said that a man who doesn't see himself as a good husband or father is being responsible by avoiding marriage and having children. I said nothing about walking away from a marriage he is already in or walking away from children he already has. You all want to declare a black man as "dbr" simply because he doesn't want to marry.

Facts please, I'm tired of doing all the work here, so please back your stats up at least once.

http://aspe.hhs.gov/HSP/05/child-maltreat/rs.htm

"According to U.S. Census data, among married couples with children, husbands are on average 2.4 years older than their wives."

Could you refer me to all of the stats you have backed up?

Yes, I'm sure you, cowardly and pompous anonymous, are the final authority on the hopes, dreams, and experiences of black women. Get real.

You mad? :-)

I'm as much an authority as you are an authority on the hopes, dreams and experiences of black men.

if you weren't so threatened by the idea, even you would admit you see a lot more bw/wm couples now than you did even ten years ago.

Who is threatened? One of my good friends is a white man married to a black woman. His wife never felt the need to justify her relationship by degrading black men. She's confident in her relationship being what it is supposed to be, two people in love. Not some lame attempt at payback.

And I don't see IR relationships now any more than I did 20 years ago. But if I did, I would mean nothing to me. That's their business.

Anonymous said...

Why can't the people who say they want to see change and improvement in our community openly articulate and squarely face this reality?

We should. We should also face all realities:

http://consideroursource.blogspot.com/2007/09/stephens-observation-on-black-women.html

Anonymous said...

Quoting the Anon:

"Now lets take an analogy. Two individuals are equally responsible for abiding by the laws. But if one of those individuals is already on probation, wouldn't it seem that there would be be more urgency for that person to follow all laws?

Likewise, wouldn't it seem more urgent for the woman to take precautions since she will almost always bear the brunt of responsibility for rearing the child?"

You still fail to understand the point. I'll break it down. You saying the female will bear the brunt of the responsibility for the child is you making the assumption that the father's part is dispensable. This is a common thought process in the Black community and its why 75% of black children are born out of wedlock. It seems that other races of men have gotten the memo that the mothers really do not bear the brunt of the responsibility for a child but bear the same as they do and Black men are still lagging behind for some reason. I'm sorry but the fact that Black men refuse to be fathers does not make it true that mothers bear the brunt of the responsibility, it just explains the current circumstances.

Outside of carrying the child to term, the mother does not really have any more obligation than the father to stick with the child. And nowadays they don't even have to do that much so even that excuse doesn't work. The only point you have at this point is that Black mothers do have the choice to run just as the Black father does but they generally make the choice not to which really serves no purpose for your argument and actually makes Black men look worse.

It will be better when the Black community, men and women alike but especially Black men, start to understand that the father's role is just as necessary as the mother's. His role is just as obligatory and no more "up to a mere choice" than the mother's in raising a child.

Anonymous said...

knockoutchick:

Yan says:
"Thanks for the compliments other Anon and KOC. I've given the wrong impression,though. I'm not the cool and dispassionate type at all!"

Oh my, Yan, have you been known to single a 'tater too? :-) Say it ain't so........

Anonymous said...

knockoutchick says:

As I said a million times, part of the problem in the BC is the vast disconnect between men and women, so much so, we can never even agree on the core problems to even begin to address them.

As Aimee addressed with this blog, Jason Whitlock can claim to undertstand the problem of hip hop and misogny, yet then contribute to it.

But again see the Anon male posters comments below....

"choose not to be burdened"

this is a reference to child rearing and supporting a life.

"I refer to monetary child support because it is the only legal obligation he has toward the child. Other than that, he could choose to not be burdened."

He has shown himself....

Yan said...

Anonymous,
In addition to being a cowardly guttersniper, you also can dish it out but you can't take it. Were you mad when you described us all as "spurned bitter women out for revenge"? Don't insult us and then pretend you have the high ground when you get back the same. :)

Actually yes, I am getting a bit ticked. I don't suffer fools gladly and it is becoming increasingly obvious that is what I am dealing with here, and a hypocritical one at that.

We don't need to take care of our children. Yan said we are not responsible for them". Way to go Yan.

Excuse me? Where did I say men weren't responsible for their children? Direct quote please. When I said they were abandoning their children it was quite implicit I felt they had a responsibility to take care of those children. You have the audacity to tell me to learn how to read when you clearly need hooked on phonics. You also need to learn how to control that vivid imagination of yours.

I have no problem with a black man who decides he is not suited for marriage and fatherhood and acts accordingly and responsibly in line with that decision, like the two men I have known who got vasectomies so it would not be an issue. But nearly 70% of black children being born out of wedlock does not bear out the assertion that most black men are taking the initiative to prevent becoming fathers. So yes, if you feel entitled to all of the benefits of marriage, but want to contribute nothing except sperm, you're DBR. Oh wait, wasn't this you? I said that a man who doesn't see himself as a good husband or father is being responsible by avoiding marriage and having children.

Since my reading comprehension is so low, let me get clarification. In that statement are you saying:
1. The man who doesn't want to be a husband or father is being responsible by NOT marrying AND NOT having children

or

2. The man who doesn't want to be a husband or father is being responsible by NOT marrying BUT STILL having children?

I'm really confused because if your stance is #1, then you are saying the same thing we've been saying but still defending men who behave irresponsibly in your own view as evidenced by the above statement.

Since you are the expert on the motivations and desires of black men, why were 69.3% of black children born out of wedlock in 2005? http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hestat/prelimbirths05_tables.pdf#1 There is still a higher percentage of bm involved in IR relationships than there are bw, so if these numbers were reported by race of unmarried father, they would no doubt be even more dire. http://www.census.gov/population/socdemo/hh-fam/tabMS-3.pdf

Please also note, I have seen no evidence that the majority of black women have indicated a reduced interest in having children. So it's even more curious that all these "responsible" black men who have already decided the family man role is not for them, and must be cognizant of the fact that they have no control over whether any babies resulting from their sexual escapades will be aborted, adopted, or remain a financial liability for at least 18 years, why so few of them take precautions in preventing these pregnancies.

In 2000, there were nearly 2 million more black women aged 15 and over than there were black men aged 15 and over. But even with lower number of men 41.6% of bm had never been married compared to 39.7% of black women. You would think with there being so many more available women, the percentage of never married men would be lower since they clearly have the advantage. So Professor Blackmanexpert, please explain why are so many black men unwilling to enter into marriage with women of any race? Why do so many create these abandoned fractured families?
http://www.census.gov/prod/2003pubs/c2kbr-30.pdf

Oh yeah, about your stats:

1. Why didn't you provide the source and context for your laughable Studies have shown that 55% of black children have spent some time in a household where couples are cohabitating?
2. It would have been helpful to have provided a stat about black couples specifically and not an average age difference for couples of all races since we already know our marriage stats are quite different. But I'll buy it. Unfortunately, the only data I could find that breaks down the percentage of never marrieds by both race and age was from 1996. http://www.census.gov/prod/2002pubs/p70-80.pdf . But it still shows black men being less likely to marry at all ages and 68% of 25-29 yr old bm were unmarried that year compared to 58% of 25-29 yr old bw being unmarried. Maybe all of those 20-something bw married younger men. Oh this also supports bm preferring to marry at an older age "In 1990, black men (75.8 marriages per thousand) were much less likely than white men (119.2 per thousand) to marry for the first time between ages 25 and 29, but were somewhat more likely to marry between ages 40 and 44 (31.9 for black men compared to 29.7 for white men) and after age 45" from http://www.jointcenter.org/DB/factsheet/marital.htm. But even if black men do not generally marry younger black women, there are still fewer men to begin with, fewer men inclined to marry, and fewer black men seeking higher education, and more caught up in the criminal justice system.

At any rate, as I said before, it's pointless to engage you any further. You started out as an apologist for Whitlock and Imus, tried to deflect attention to female rappers, gave up entirely when too many holes were blown in your weak arguments, then you revealed your true nature with the "spurned black men-haters" gem and devoted all of your energy to the defense of DBR BM. And then you make this statement, And I don't see IR relationships now any more than I did 20 years ago. But if I did, I would mean nothing to me. That's their business. That only begs the question of why are coming here to read these blogs anyway since this is "not your business"? Just a rhetorical question, I really don't care about you or your motivations. You are dismissed.

Yan said...

knockoutchick,

Oh my, Yan, have you been known to single a 'tater too? :-) Say it ain't so........

Oh yes, my older brother still talks about the time I smacked him in the face with a doll!

He has shown himself....

So true. But I'm sure he will be back with more static.

Anonymous said...

knockoutchick:

"Poster:
Indeed, none of us would be in hysterics over the inflated 70% statistic if we didn't care.

Anon Male responds:
Yes, on this blog. Aside from this circle, few black women are in hysterics over this inflated number. What we have here is simply a group of women who have been scorned and black men are the targets of their ire."

Knockoutchick says:

We see many BM believe we are simply "bitter BM haters". We are in hysterics with no need. We are alarmist in seeing a crisis in the BC. If not now...when should we be alarmed??

There are 50-60% of BM unemployed in NYC....simply IDLE! Shall we wait until there is 80% unemployment among BM and then be alarmed?

Shall we wait until 80% of black children are born OOW ...and then be alarmed?

Should we wait until there are 10 times the black female students attending higher Ed than black male?

I say we should we upset if there are even twice as many girls than boys in higher ED, not 5-7 times as many.

We should be upset when there is ANY rise in BM unemployment, not wait until that figure is in the majority. If so many young WM were unemployed...white people would be outraged.

It is a HUGE part of the problem that many BM do NOT acknowledge the crisis in black relationships and families.

Aimee said...

Anonymous said...

Aimee said...
Exactly. On one hand, he's arguing that men and women are "equally responsible"; on the other, he acknowledges that they clearly are not, since mothers are almost always custodial parents, and a man is free to "go on with his life" after handing over 20% of his paycheck--assuming that he doesn't run away from even that little bit of responsibility, as is typical.

You're confused. Both are equally responsible for taking precautions. One bears a greater burden for not taking those precautions.


I assume you mean that they are equally responsible on a moral/ethical level, since BM and BW do NOT BEHAVE with equal responsibility with respect to their children--which only proves the point that BW shoulder their moral/ethical responsibilities to their children to a greater degree than BM. Thus, the parties' conduct is NOT "equally responsible." Additionally, they are not merely "equally responsible" on a moral/ethical level to "take precautions"; they are also equally responsible on a moral/ethical level for the support and rearing of any offspring that result from their sexual intimacy. I am sorry that your moral confusion has precluded you from understanding that.

Our anonymous friend also doesn't acknowledge that men and women are equally free to abandon their children if they so choose--virtually every state in the country has laws that allows a woman to drop her infant off at a police station or hospital emergency room, and "go on with her life." Women are also free to give an unwanted child up for adoption.

Then tell why 99.9% of the time do women of all races take on the burden when the men are not around? Could it be the innate motherly instinct?


Why don't you tell me why BM are so much more likely than other men NOT to be around? Do they lack a "fatherly instinct" that other men possess? Do BW have a "motherly instinct" that is so much greater than that possessed by other women? Again, you only underscore the point that you refuse to confront: WHY do BW take on the care, support and rearing of their children to a much greater degree than BM, when they have no greater obligation to do so--when they are equally free to walk away if they wish? What does this tell us about the parties RELATIVE moral/ethical responsibility for the problems that result from BMs' absence from their children's lives?

Anonymous said...

The amazing thing about this discussion is the near inability to place any emphasis on black woment taking responsibility for themselves and not allowing themselves to be impregnated by men who have not made and show little promise of making commitments to them. It's all about "he needs to step up to his responsibilities". Well, being that Joe Blow has a criminal record, no job, lives with his mother, smokes weed, sleeps till noon everyday, etc., wasn't it apparent from the get go that he wasn't the "step up" type?

Trifling brothas aren't complaining. It's the baby mommas who are complaining. So since it is such a hell on you and the black community, stop having babies for them. Same for them. If they don't want to take care of kids, then they should stop fathering them. But I am addressing a blog of black women and you women, save for cases of rape, are nearly 100% capable of not getting impregnated by fools.

This is simply a reflection of the tendency of black women (and really all women) to feel that they can change men. Please stop it. A zebra can't change its stripes. Mike Tyson was a fool in 1987 and is still a fool 20 years later. When a grown man shows little promise, he will probably always show little promise.

But lets face it. Ya'll love these idiots. They exite you. You fantisize about making lives with them and feel that you can somehow influence them enough that they will drop just enough of their trifling ways to be responsible fathers, yet keep just enough of those ways to keep you exited.

What is funny is that the white equivalent of thugs are your biker types. Notice that biker babes look just as rough and hard as the bikers. Yet, thugs, players, and dope dealers keep beautiful black women with them. I have seen this all of my life and it continues to amaze me.

Stop having babies for fools and this will happen. They will not be around to be negative role models. They will be unable to be absent from their kids' lives because they won't have kids period. And their trifling genes will not be passed down. Eventually they will disappear.

And note that I am speaking generally when I say "you" and I am not saying that any of you nor all black women are like this. Just a disproportionate number.

Aimee said...

Anonymous said...

Stop having babies for fools

I agree with this 100%, and one of the main purposes of this blog is to encourage BW to stop having babies for fools, stop having relationships with fools, stop pasting fake smiles on their faces for the sake of peace when fools try to intimidate them into to talking to them on the street--avoid fools, period, and move on with your lives to men who are worthwhile.

Of course, the central point of the current discussion, that doesn't appear to "amaze" you, is the fact that BW overwhelmingly DO take responsibility for their babies by fools, while BM dispropotionately fail to take the same responsibility.

Nor have you addressed the fact that these "fools" not only fail in their relationships with BW and black children, but in their roles as workers and citizens as well. Are you also "amazed" by this persistent lack of responsibility? Is it also BW's failure to keep their legs closed that cause so many BM to be idle, die prematurely, and be incarcerated at rates that far outpace every other demographic group in the population? Are employers, disease, and crime victims also "failing to take responsibility," since the dysfunction of DBRBM also extends to these spheres?

Anonymous said...

"Trifling brothas aren't complaining. It's the baby mommas who are complaining. So since it is such a hell on you and the black community, stop having babies for them. Same for them. If they don't want to take care of kids, then they should stop fathering them. But I am addressing a blog of black women and you women, save for cases of rape, are nearly 100% capable of not getting impregnated by fools."

Just because a woman gets pregnant and takes care of a child doesn't make her a "good woman" necessarily either though, so its really usually not regular, upstanding Black women that you see getting involved in these relationships, its the lost ones. There are too many men who confuse a woman who "looks good" to them, as a woman who actually is good and I've noticed that Black men generally chase those women and then complain, get bitter, and swear off Black women when they get played/used. And trust me the complaints do happen both ways, because I can't count how many times I've seen Black men complain about having to pay child support when the female spends it on herself rather than the child. I'm sorry but I'm just not buying your copout that personal responsibility for who you sleep with is more important for women than it is for men.

The point aimee made above me is very sound too though so I'd like to hear your response to that. Why is there a disproportionate amount of "bad Black men that no woman should try to change" as opposed to the ones that are worthy of fathering children and why are you so opposed to this blog if you actually want Black women to father children by good men that will take care of them?

Aimee said...

Anonymous said...

Just because a woman gets pregnant and takes care of a child doesn't make her a "good woman" necessarily either though, so its really usually not regular, upstanding Black women that you see getting involved in these relationships, its the lost ones.

I didn't suggest that caring for your child makes you "good," only that it makes you responsible. It would certainly reflect even greater responsibility to only get involved with men who are willing to shoulder equal responsibility. But there's a certain unfairness to suggesting that only a "lost" BW has a child OOW, as if all these women have to do is "choose better" within the community and they'd be just fine.

The point is as long as BW limit their choices in men by race, their options will always be (1) to compete for a smaller and smaller percentage of functional men; (2) settle for babymamahood and man-sharing; (3) not reproduce at all.

That is why BW who want to be wives and mothers or simply to have healthy, happy, mutually nurturing relationships with worthy men, are best served by pursuing their attraction to a wide variety of men based on the contents of their characters, not race.

Anonymous said...

Men of all races abandon their kids at a greater rate than the women of their race. It is flawed to make direct comparisons between black women and black men. It is better to make direct comparisons between black women and non-black women. Black women are contributing to child abandonment and abuse:

http://www.oas.samhsa.gov/2k2/pregDU/pregDU.htm

"Pregnant black women were 4.5 times more likely to have used illicit drugs in the past month than white pregnant women."

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4630196

"African-American kids make up nearly 40 percent of the kids in foster care."

http://life.familyeducation.com/grandparents/family/29678.html

"Black children were more likely to be raised by grandparents than white children or Hispanic children."

http://www.clas.ufl.edu/alumni/alumninotes/02spring/future.shtml

"The data indicates that 12% of black children, 6% of Hispanic children and 4% of white children are being raised by grandparents. Some of the explanations for this emerging 'kinship structure' include parental drug abuse, incarceration, child abuse, parental divorce, abandonment and physical and mental health problems."

http://www.amnesty.org/ailib/intcam/women/report2.html

The rate of imprisonment of black women is more than eight times the rate of imprisonment of white women

http://www.newsrx.com/newsletters/Health-and-Medicine-Week/2001-08-27/20010827333195W.html

African American women are only 40%as likely to breastfeed as non-black women, according to a new study published in the August 2001 issue of Pediatrics.

'When asked why they did not breastfeed their babies, 83% of black women chose the response, "preferred to bottle-feed." Sixty-two percent of white women chose this response. (Other options included job or schedule difficulties, and physical or medical...'

Aimee said...

Anonymous said...

It is flawed to make direct comparisons between black women and black men.

If we are talking about the problems of the BLACK community, who else are we supposed to talk about? Martians? You didn't have a problem arguing for "equal responsibillity" before--but now that your flimsy, non-factual claims have been demolished, you want to start talking about comparative breast-feeding rates--as if the biggest problem facing the droves of fatherless children in the black community is Similac? This is pathetic . . .

felicia said...

"The point is as long as BW limit their choices in men by race, their options will always be (1) to compete for a smaller and smaller percentage of functional men; (2) settle for babymamahood and man-sharing; (3) not reproduce at all.

That is why BW who want to be wives and mothers or simply to have healthy, happy, mutually nurturing relationships with worthy men, are best served by pursuing their attraction to a wide variety of men based on the contents of their characters, not race."


EXACTLY.

Yan said...

You didn't have a problem arguing for "equal responsibility" before--but now that your flimsy, non-factual claims have been demolished, you want to start talking about comparative breast-feeding rates--as if the biggest problem facing the droves of fatherless children in the black community is Similac? This is pathetic . .

Touche again, Aimee. Anon, please stop embarrassing yourself.

Anonymous said...

If we are talking about the problems of the BLACK community, who else are we supposed to talk about? Martians?

You're failing to understand. It is silly to judge black females based on direct comparisons to black males. That's like determining that black women are short because black men are on average several inches taller.

To truly guage black women, it would be intelligent to compare them to non-black women. Men of ALL races commit crime vastly more than the women of their race do. But somehow, you all try to use the greater degree of criminal activity among black men compared to black women as a reason to declare black men as trash while black women are angels. That is silly.

To truly guage, one must compare the genders of one group to the same gender of another group. In doing so, we see that black women are represented in the female penal system similarly to the way black men are represented in the male penal system.

Now lets go to "child abandonment". The males of ALL racial groups are more prone to child abandonment than the women of their race. Now while such abandonment is overrepresented among black men as compared to non-black men, the fact that a disproportionate number of black children are in foster homes or are being raised by grandparents show that black women are contributing to child abandonment to a greater degree than non-black women.

As far as the breastfeeding comment, with research showing how breastfeeding contributes to better health and higher IQs for children, the fact that black women to a greater degree not only don't breasfeed, but overwhelmingly admit to not doing so because of mere preference is telling. It shows the high degree of selfishness among black women with regard to what is best for their children. Same for drug use by black pregnent women.

This whole "black women are angels while black men are scum" notion is bunk. Black women and black men are are the same race, are from the same environment, and practice the came culture. Both are succeptable to the same pathologies and the differences are related to the innate differences that go along with gender.

daphne said...

Good grief. At no point, during this discussion, did Aimee, Yan, nottinghillchick, or any other female poster say "black women are angels while black men are scum." This is being inferred because the other anonymous arguments presented by men (and/or women) here have been picked apart. Just as Halima and Evia are labeled as "black men haters" when they've never said any such thing. Still, the refutable arguments persevere.

Even more disturbing is the underlying, unspoken principle of women having to take responsibility for some men's character flaws. Instead of addressing why men don't take practical measures when it comes sexual responsibility, it's the woman who must "keep her legs closed" and take additional measures. No talk of men "keeping their zippers up" or anything like that. Never mind that whenever an argument presented here is refuted point by point, new, even more irrelevant comments are posted. Give it up, please.

Anonymous said...

Good grief. At no point, during this discussion, did Aimee, Yan, nottinghillchick, or any other female poster say "black women are angels while black men are scum."

And nowhere during this discussion did anyone "co-sign DBRBM behavior", but that accusation was made.

Anonymous said...

"Now lets go to "child abandonment". The males of ALL racial groups are more prone to child abandonment than the women of their race. Now while such abandonment is overrepresented among black men as compared to non-black men, the fact that a disproportionate number of black children are in foster homes or are being raised by grandparents show that black women are contributing to child abandonment to a greater degree than non-black women."

Can you say copout? Does every other race of women out perform their men academically, pursue higher education at 3 times the rate, pursue graduate education at an even higher rate, and the list goes on and on. You see, I see that you're trying to tear Black women down with Black men because you have no way to dispute the poor, DBRBM behavior the people have been speaking of but you'll have to come better than that.

And if you really want to be realistic, why don't you bring out stats for abortion and see how those look when comparing white and black women. But I guess its okay that they're just killing their babies before they have them rather than not breastfeeding them. That truly shows a lack of selfishness on their part. What a smart man you are. Oh and don't even get me started on comparing Black men and other races of men :/

"To truly guage, one must compare the genders of one group to the same gender of another group. In doing so, we see that black women are represented in the female penal system similarly to the way black men are represented in the male penal system."

Not even close lol. I think I read (and someone correct me if im wrong) about 10 percent of the Black male pop has been in prison its nowhere near that for black women.

Anonymous said...

"I didn't suggest that caring for your child makes you "good," only that it makes you responsible. It would certainly reflect even greater responsibility to only get involved with men who are willing to shoulder equal responsibility. But there's a certain unfairness to suggesting that only a "lost" BW has a child OOW, as if all these women have to do is "choose better" within the community and they'd be just fine."

You misunderstand. The reason I responded that way was not to say any Black woman that has multiple children OOW is "lost", its simply to refute the idea that so many Black men use (that "good Black women choose the thugs" lie) to push the blame onto Black women again. The truth is, bad people usually choose other bad people and the nice people are the ones left in the dust. Whether you want to believe it or not, its true. I would venture to say that about 8/10 the women who are getting involved with DBRBM are lost. Hell if they weren't losers to an extent themselves, do you think they'd be involved with those loser men?

Believe me, the 70% single rate didn't come from a bunch of Black women in the hood who don't take care of themselves the way they should. These women actually never seem to find themselves without a pursuing Black man, especially if she's light skinned. No, the 70% single rate is made up of upstanding Black women that DO take care of themselves and thus don't get involved with unworthy men. The problem arises is that while these Bwomen aren't giving DBRBM a chance, they also haven't opened up to any other races of men. This is what leaves them single.

Anonymous said...

"And nowhere during this discussion did anyone "co-sign DBRBM behavior", but that accusation was made."

When you make one excuse after another for mysogynistic language and behavior directed at black women you most certainly are co-signing DBRBM behavior. When you claim that with regards to sexual behavior all of the onus falls on the female and that you are not responsible for your own penis and whether or not you keep it in your pants (and I'm sorry, there are men out there who take responsibility for their own dicks and don't have sex with any woman they wouldn't want to raise a child with) you are most certainly co-signing DBRBM behavior. You don't have to worry about black women saying a word about black men- you're saying it yourself. But why worry? The black women who you find to be ultimately responsible for the degradations of hip hop, the pervasiveness of anti-intellectualism and thugish behavior and the people solely responsible for OOW births are voting with their feet and going elsewhere.
Oh yeah, I'm glad you brought up the issue of the "nappy headed hos" and the fact that those attention whores couldn't possibly have a valid complaint because obviously ALL black women and girls MUST listen to hip hop and mysogynistic rap. We can now lay to rest all of the complaints of black men about how they are perceived and maligned, attention whores that they are, right. I mean, hey, ALL black men must listen to and endorse that attitude right? They know the lyrics just as well as black girls do, so they can't possibly have a valid claim about slights to their image and damage done to their manhood. They're poppin' their fingers and shakin' their asses to the same stuff that broadcasts the image of them as ignorant, illiterate thugs with half a dozen babymamas, correct? We can all rest easy now that we've gotten that straightened out.

Anonymous said...

When you make one excuse after another for mysogynistic language and behavior directed at black women you most certainly are co-signing DBRBM behavior.

Yet you can't quote one example of anyone making one excuse for mysogynistic language and behavior direct at black women. It's all in your head.

When you claim that with regards to sexual behavior all of the onus falls on the female and that you are not responsible for your own penis and whether or not you keep it in your pants (and I'm sorry, there are men out there who take responsibility for their own dicks and don't have sex with any woman they wouldn't want to raise a child with) you are most certainly co-signing DBRBM behavior.

Again, you can't make one quote showing anyone doing this. It was clearly stated that the responsibility was 50/50.

You don't have to worry about black women saying a word about black men- you're saying it yourself.

Saying what?

But why worry? The black women who you find to be ultimately responsible for the degradations of hip hop, the pervasiveness of anti-intellectualism and thugish behavior and the people solely responsible for OOW births are voting with their feet and going elsewhere.

Well, in that case, the black men who you feel are the scum of the Earth, are innately inferior to all other men, are the reason for all of the ills of black women and everyone else, are the target of your greatest hatred, and are all deserving of death are likewise voting with their feet.

Oh yeah, I'm glad you brought up the issue of the "nappy headed hos" and the fact that those attention whores couldn't possibly have a valid complaint because obviously ALL black women and girls MUST listen to hip hop and mysogynistic rap. We can now lay to rest all of the complaints of black men about how they are perceived and maligned, attention whores that they are, right. I mean, hey, ALL black men must listen to and endorse that attitude right? They know the lyrics just as well as black girls do, so they can't possibly have a valid claim about slights to their image and damage done to their manhood. They're poppin' their fingers and shakin' their asses to the same stuff that broadcasts the image of them as ignorant, illiterate thugs with half a dozen babymamas, correct? We can all rest easy now that we've gotten that straightened out.

You're addressing another anon here so I'll let him respond to this.

Anonymous said...

Well, in that case, the black men who you feel are the scum of the Earth, are innately inferior to all other men, are the reason for all of the ills of black women and everyone else, are the target of your greatest hatred, and are all deserving of death are likewise voting with their feet.


-------
If thats the case then why are you and your breathren constantly trolling BLACK WOMEN's IR blogs??

Anonymous said...

Believe me, the 70% single rate didn't come from a bunch of Black women in the hood who don't take care of themselves the way they should. These women actually never seem to find themselves without a pursuing Black man, especially if she's light skinned. No, the 70% single rate is made up of upstanding Black women that DO take care of themselves and thus don't get involved with unworthy men. The problem arises is that while these Bwomen aren't giving DBRBM a chance, they also haven't opened up to any other races of men. This is what leaves them single.

There are two problems with this post. For one, as Yan has pointed out, nearly half of the 70% of single black women have been married and are either divorced or widowed. Also, this statistic includes all black women over the age of 15 and few expect females between the age of 15 and 21 to be married.

The next problem is that the statement is just wrong.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/21/weekinreview/21zernike.html?_r=2&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

"The difference extends across race lines: black women are significantly less likely to marry than white women, but among blacks, women with a college education are more likely to marry than those who do not."

So your upper class black women marry the most and the high single rate among black women could, to some degree, be related to the fact that there is a larger percentage of lower class black women than other women.

Anonymous said...

If thats the case then why are you and your breathren constantly trolling BLACK WOMEN's IR blogs??

How do know whether I am "trolling" IR blogs or not?

This isn't an IR blog. It's a haven of sorts for other black women and the men who love them as well as a place to discuss important topics of interest to intelligent, educated, attractive and upwardly mobile black women.

I love black women.

That comment above was just a mirror of the silly comment that I was responding to in order to show how silly it was.

pinkydj said...

Anon said:

"This isn't an IR blog. It's a haven of sorts for other black women and the men who love them as well as a place to discuss important topics of interest to intelligent, educated, attractive and upwardly mobile black women."



-----------------------------------

If you're going to copy from Aimee's bio shouldn't you copy the whole passage to make your point and not cherry-pick? That only seems fair.

" I started this blog to provide a clearinghouse and "haven" of sorts for other black women and the men who love us. Come here to learn more about black women in Interracial Relationships, as well as other important topics of interest to intelligent, educated, attractive and upwardly mobile black women."

Yan said...

Anon,
Thanks for posting the NYTimes link. I have been looking for some time for an article I read stating educated bw were more likely to marry. I still haven't been able to find the article I read though.

As far as Well, in that case, the black men who you feel are the scum of the Earth... likewise voting with their feet.

Please note we are referring only to black men who behave in irresponsible and harmful ways, not ALL black men. Until those men stop having babies and thereby at least casual relationships with bw, it cannot be said that they are "voting with their feet". And they are also taking their maladaptive habits to the women of other races when they do "vote with their feet". There are a lot of half-white babies out there whose black fathers are not involved in their lives.

Whereas when bw "vote with their feet" regarding DBR BM that's it, game over. There is not any kind of romantic contact with DBR BM.

Yan said...

I think I found the article I was looking for. I cannot send a URL since a paid subscription is required to access, however anyone who would like me to email them a copy can contact me. My address is in my blogger profile.

News and Views; A College Degree Produces a Higher Probability That a Black Woman Will Marry

The Journal of Blacks in Higher Education
July 31, 2005

Anonymous said...

knockoutchick says:

I will add a few words about the OOW mother that the male Anons have been referring to.

I do agree with the concept that we have to teach the ideas of birth AFTER marriage to our younger women. There certainly are too many OOW births in our community. And I do agree there is equal responsibility.

Yet what I do see here in New York is that there so many cases where "Shaniqua" rebounds. I do see girls who may have had children at 19 or 20, seemingly on a "better" track at 29 or 30.

There are a lot of women you see working, sometimes two jobs and doing their best to support their children.

That poorer or less educated young woman that is the fodder for many a joke..yet I see many working at firms in the city and most often at government and city agencies trying to better their lives.

I am sure if you have visited the Parking violations Bureau or so on...you know what I mean. Though many like to make fun of the snarky attitude and bad hair style choices of these women...they ARE working, paying taxes, an active part of society and contributing
to its growth with their efforts and earnings.

Shaniqua's male counterpart on the other hand is struggling. Young BM are having a much harder time rebounding back into mainstream society after mistakes in youth.

Anonymous said...

Shaniqua's male counterpart on the other hand is struggling. Young BM are having a much harder time rebounding back into mainstream society after mistakes in youth.

Good post. To expand on this, here is a link to an interesting topic related to your point. It is not racially specific but it shows a general trend. It has been said that what is a problem in white America becomes an epidemic in black America. Thus I can see how the negative situation in black America is the typical way the general negative trends become excessive in black communities.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03/30/AR2006033001341.html

Anonymous said...

Shaniqua's male counterpart on the other hand is struggling. Young BM are having a much harder time rebounding back into mainstream society after mistakes in youth.

http://www.cssny.org/pubs/urbanagenda
/2004_03_18.html

But an unaccounted factor for the low rate of jobholding by black men is their high percentage of felony convictions. Black men ages 18 to 65 are seven times more likely than white men to have a prison record. There are now more African American men in prison than in college. Nationally, approximately 13 percent of African American men - 1.4 million - are ineligible to vote because of criminal records. One of the so-called "collateral consequences" of this fact are the barriers to employment for black men with a felony conviction.

Anonymous said...

This isn't an IR blog. It's a haven of sorts for other black women and the men who love them as well as a place to discuss important topics of interest to intelligent, educated, attractive and upwardly mobile black women.

-------
Exactly. A "HAVEN" for black women. However your making it anything but, by posting stats trying to "prove" that BW lag behind other races of women.

Anonymous said...

http://archive.salon.com/news/feature/2001/01/12/black_women/index.html

Black women have been the hardest hit by the incarceration craze. More are now behind bars than at any time in American history. They fill jails and prisons in greater percentages than black men and are seven times more likely to be imprisoned than white women. For the first time in American history, black women in California and several other states are being imprisoned at nearly the same rate as white men.

Anonymous said...

I am curious, why are you women still talking about/to black men?

You are wasting your time because statistically, some of you will NEVER get married to any color man.

Instead of arguing with these black men on this site, you should be doing everything possible about not becoming one of these black women who never marries.

Black man who cares

Anonymous said...

"So your upper class black women marry the most and the high single rate among black women could, to some degree, be related to the fact that there is a larger percentage of lower class black women than other women."

Upper class Black women marrying at a higher rate does not mean that they make up more of the 70%, it just means they marry at a higher rate.

Anonymous said...

"Well, in that case, the black men who you feel are the scum of the Earth, are innately inferior to all other men, are the reason for all of the ills of black women and everyone else, are the target of your greatest hatred, and are all deserving of death are likewise voting with their feet."

Oh please. Get a life and a grip. Nowhere did I nor any other woman on this board say ALL black men were the scum of the earth and that they have our greatest hatred and we wish they'd all die. That is so second grade. But I'm sorry, you tell on yourself when you claim that ultimately the responsibility for not producing a child lies SOLELY with whatever female you are lying with. You tell on yourself when you proclaim loudly that your decision to pursue a female for sex (and men by and large still do the pursuing) that you know as well as anyone else can produce a child is not 50% your responsibility but ulitmately hers. It does behoove women to not say yes, but that in no way absolves you of responsibility, sorry. And no, not every black man behaves this way; I've had the pleasure of knowing and meeting and living alongside those who realize they don't want to have children yet or are not ready- so they keep their stuff in their pants and don't try to say a pregnancy is ultimately her responsiblity and fault. They have respect for themselves and for the women they interact with. And it shows.

Anonymous said...

Nowhere did I nor any other woman on this board say ALL black men were the scum of the earth and that they have our greatest hatred and we wish they'd all die.

Nowhere did I nor any other person on this board say that bw are ultimately responsible for the degradations of hip hop, the pervasiveness of anti-intellectualism and thugish behavior and for OOW births. That is so first grade.

And the entire rest of your post is filled with false claims about what I or anyone said, yet you will continue to make such claims because you can't handle what is truly being said.

Anonymous said...

Where are stats showing that bw/wm IR relationships are skyrocketing? The stats show otherwise. Note the part in bold:

http://www.isteve.com/2003_Census_Interracial_Marriage_Gender_Gap.htm

These data are not estimates, but are the actual counts of all 54,493,232 married couples in America as of April 1, 2000. So, they are extremely reliable. This enumeration is made once every 10 years. Only the decennial Census has enough respondents to accurately measure the various varieties of interracial marriage.

In contrast, the Census Bureau also releases annual Current Population Survey reports on "Families and Living Arrangements." These include cursory estimates of the numbers of interracial couples. These reports occasionally lead to the press filling up with excited comments about new trends in interracial marriage, but they are based on sample sizes too small to be trustworthy. For example, these annual CPS surveys have several times reported that the total number of white husband -- black wife married couples had increased or decreased by 30 percent in the latest year, which is clearly impossible. The last CPS report included this warning: "The Census Bureau cautions the public not to confuse these estimates, based on survey data collected in March 2000, with Census 2000 data."

Anonymous said...

I notice you don't address AT ALL the issue of keeping your genitals in your pants anonymous. I don't have anything to justify- I'm not running around impregnating anyone.

Anonymous said...

Leave it to negro men to come to a blog with the intentions of uplifting BW, and turn it into place where they can spew there distain for BW by scowering the internet and digging for ANYTHING that makes BW look bad.

White, asian and latin/hispanic men are building billion dollar corporations, making headways in science, medical and technology fields, creating inventions, fighting for control of terrorities and natural resources... Meanwhile negro men puts all of his enegry in tearing BW down and fantasizing about "white girls". Outside of playing basketball or entertaining [see cooning] no one has any use for yall DBR a$$e$.

BW are making strides educational & venturing into entrepreuenrship [things that matter in life, not who can date out of their race the most!] more than ever before and you try to bring us down to some gutter level. PATHETIC. Sour grapes I guess. I didn't think it was possible for men to be jealous of women... but I guess thats the phenomenon that many BW are experencing LMAO!!!

Yan said...

Hey ladies,
Don't feed the troll, let him starve so he'll move on. It's obvious what his objective is and that he will keep posting OCD-style to achieve it. Don't waste your time by giving him the attention he seeks.

Yan said...

P.S. Apparently this Steve Sailer guys has his critics:

In an update to his original 1997 article "Is Love Colorblind", Steve claims to have updated 2000 Census information, which are official counts and not estimates. Steve claims the interracial marriage disparity has worsened for Black women and even more worse for Asian men since 1990. Quotes from his article.

Regarding Black interracial marriages (Black Male/Black Female outmarriage ratios):
"Although some commentators had predicted that this intermarriage disparity should be evening out, this 2.65 ratio actually was up slightly from 2.54 ratio in 1990. "

Regarding Asian interracial marriages (Asian female/Asian male outmarriage ratios):
"That 3.08 ratio is up from 2.54 times in 1990. Oddly enough, the 1990 ratios for black-white and white-Asian marriages were mirror images of each other."

Steve Sailer has flat out lied with these 2000 Census stats. First, we emailed him to validate his 2000 Census "facts". He initially replied with a shady response, using eloquent words like "decennial" and "enumeration", and statistician's code words like "margin of error", "annual fluctuations", and "trend lines". However, he did not show the original source data from the Census to where he derived his interracial marriage stats.

We then wrote a few more emails asking him to provide the data from the Census, but his only reply was linking to an article he wrote himself. The fact is, STEVE SAILER CANNOT VALIDATE HIS 2000 CENSUS STATISTICS ON INTERRACIAL MARRIAGES.

Second, we do have real 2000 Census statistics showing the interracial marriage scene is not what Steve says it is. It is based on http://www.census.gov/prod/2001pubs/p20-537.pdf in pages 13 and 15. This article on interracial marriages explains the interracial marriage scene in detail, based on real 2000 Census data which can be validated.

Anonymous said...

Just to expose the lies of the racist anon:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/11/16/AR2006111601932.html

The population of black male entrepreneurs has grown dramatically in the past 15 years, as more black men have abandoned corporate jobs and converted their expertise into livelihoods that they control. According to a recent U.S. Census report, the number of black men who own businesses increased by nearly a third from 1997 to 2002, and now number more than 571,000 nationwide. In eight years, at the current growth rate, that number will top 1 million. Previous generations of black businessmen were concentrated in the service and retail fields: They owned restaurants, barbershops, small grocery stores. Most relied on a black customer base. They were people like Ford's parents, who opened an upholstery shop on H Street in Northeast during the 1970s.

Aimee said...

Black man who cares said...

I am curious, why are you women still talking about/to black men?

You are wasting your time because statistically, some of you will NEVER get married to any color man.

Instead of arguing with these black men on this site, you should be doing everything possible about not becoming one of these black women who never marries.


Well, I can't speak for "you women," but I can speak for me.

I wrote my post in response to what I consider a threat and a burden to BW regardless of who they do or don't marry: DBR men who actively work to undermine us and demean our characters--i.e., one of the forces in our society that threaten the ability of BW to find worthy mates of ANY race in the first place.

No matter who a BW seeks a relationship with, she will have to live where she lives, work where she works, and cope with the dangers to, and imagery of, BW that DBR men actively propagate; as you can see at this blog, no matter where we go, they attempt to follow and sabotage us.

Thoughtful, self-protective BW cannot afford to leave themselves vulnerable to this demographic, and we cannot afford to allow their anti-BW propaganda to go unaddressed--it is this kind of passivity that has allowed the negative stereotyping of BW to flourish, and has buttressed our record rates of singleness in the first place.

The idea that we should simply hide from them, avoid mentioning them, and hope that even when insulted and attacked, that if we just act like they don't exist they will leave us alone, is plain silly.

Women who know who they are and know what they deserve respect themselves, and understand that self-respect requires that they never hide from anyone.

As for "doing everything possible about not becoming one of these black women who never marries," I think you are a little confused what this blog is about. While I am married, I would NEVER encourage a BW to do "everything possible" simply to get married, as if that goal in and of itself is so powerful and worthy that BW should be willing to do ANYTHING to achieve it.

If all a BW wants is a man or even a husband, there are plenty of DBR fish in the sea for her to choose from, and there are plenty of pathetic women who have already trodden that pathetic path for her to model herself after. Any sister looking for that won't find BW like that here.

The women here want happy, healthy LIVES, that INCLUDE happy healthy relationships with great men. They know that they don't have to resort to desperation to achieve that, nor do they have to shrink from discussing anything that happens to interest them in order to achieve that. The implicit threat of "you ain't gonna git no man" really won't work here.

A better question from you would be "why are you DBR men coming to a site for BW and those who love them, when you are not a BW and clearly don't love them"? I personally would love to have an answer to that one!

Anonymous said...

knockoutchick says:

Regarding mistakes in youth and re-entering manistream society.....past convictions and jail time are extremely hard to re-bound from. I have a white GF who is dating a BM, late 30's with a prison record.

Lately he has been trying to get a job and "go straight". He has had "straight" jobs and done well when he had the opportunity given to him. It has been heart breaking listening to the stories she tells because most employers are just reluctant to hire someone with a prison record.

Her BF is very much like the "Baby Boy" character we all know and he can't figure out a lot of things for himself. Since he has been released ...he has been off and on back to crime.

Now here's the thing...IF there were job opportunites and more well paying manual labor jobs available, this guy is a clear example of someone who WOULD work. But there are not. So this guy just seems lost. He doesn't know what to do. Then one can ask...whose job is it to figure out how this man can support himself?

I see alot of black men in Harlem/Brooklyn/Bronx..like this one...grown men, they are angry, they are confused. And no one has been around from childhood to SHOW them how to be men.

There are legal ways to make money in this town. This is NYC! If I had been a knucklehead as a teen and committed some offense that made it hard for me to work a corporate job. I would sell bottled water on the street. I would braid hair. I would sell those $10 toys during Holiday season. I would cook food and go out to the local park and sell it. I would hustle...with no shame. But for reasons we all know, I see many of these guys like my GF's BF, who think they are only three routes to make money ...sports, entertainment and crime.

Anonymous said...

when you are not a BW and clearly don't love them"?

Who are you to say who someone loves or does not love? Should I deduce from your blog that you "clearly don't love" black men?

Aimee said...

knockoutchick says:

I have a white GF who is dating a BM, late 30's with a prison record . . .

Lately he has been trying to get a job and "go straight". He has had "straight" jobs and done well when he had the opportunity given to him. It has been heart breaking listening to the stories she tells because most employers are just reluctant to hire someone with a prison record.

I see alot of black men in Harlem/Brooklyn/Bronx..like this one...grown men, they are angry, they are confused. And no one has been around from childhood to SHOW them how to be men.


And there you have it.

Aimee said...

Anonymous said...

Who are you to say who someone loves or does not love?

You can see an expression of love the same way you can see the sky is blue or grass is green. You can see it's obvious absence in the same way.

Should I deduce from your blog that you "clearly don't love" black men?

You should deduce that I clearly don't love anyone who is destructive.

Anonymous said...

knockoutchick says:

We all are well aware of studies and statistics that show men who are employed are more likely to support their families. Besides the numbers...its just common sense that that would be the case.

I think one of the biggest issues facing the BC is finding work for those men in our communities that have come from families that were traditionally doing manual labor jobs. The days of the highly paid skilled laborer are over in this country. People will not be willing to pay a painter or carpenter $30 a hour, when the corner mall is filled with mexican and Central Americans willing to work for $5 an hour.

felicia said...

PERMANENT BLACK UNDERCLASS POSES TROUBLE DOWN THE ROAD

http://www.uexpress.com/
asiseeit/?uc_full_date=20060415

The black men I know best are all hard-working, accomplished professionals. They include my brother, a physician, and my buddies -- lawyers, college professors, political consultants, journalists. I live in an insular world of middle-class affluence, rarely stumbling into the troubled universe of marginalized underachievers.
Until recently. After a contractor walked off the job, I was assigned the task of helping my mother find laborers to help complete her new house in my hometown, Monroeville, Ala., a small place with a declining textiles industry. The assignment led me into an alternative universe of black men without jobs or prospects or enthusiasm for hard labor.

My younger sister, an architect, appointed her Mexican-born father-in-law, an experienced carpenter (and American citizen), the new general contractor. I was to find men willing to help him paint, lift, scrape, fill, dig. The pay was hardly exorbitant -- $6 an hour. But it seemed reasonable for unskilled labor. So I looked among unemployed high school classmates, members of my mother's church and men standing on nearby street corners.

The experience brought me face-to-face with every unappealing behavior that I'd heard attributed to idle black men but dismissed as stereotype. One man worked a couple of days and never came back. One young man worked 30 minutes before he deserted. Others promised to come to work but never did.

This story is hardly an academic overview. The evidence is anecdotal. But it jibes with the treatises I've read that portray a permanent underclass of black men with criminal records and low educational attainment, with multiple children and little cash.

These are men who can no longer count the military as an option because it doesn't want them. The armed forces seek high-school graduates with decent reading and math skills to operate high-tech gizmos. By some estimates, the unemployment rate among black male high-school dropouts in their 20s is 72 percent, while the comparable rate among young, uneducated white men is 34 percent, and among Latinos, 19 percent.
How did this happen? I cannot remember seeing such large numbers of idle black men when I was growing up. (Indeed, the unemployment rate in my hometown is higher than it used to be.) Is this the consequence of a dying manufacturing base that has stranded men who otherwise would have had jobs with decent wages and good benefits? And does the wave of illegal immigrants further marginalize uneducated black men?

Go to any construction site and count the black men among the menial laborers. You won't see many. Dig a little deeper, and you'll find a web of stereotypes knotted up with some thorny truths. Among other things, employers in the building trades frequently brush aside black men in favor of Latinos, believing that immigrant labor is more reliable and certainly more docile. And every time a black man fails a drug test or disappears after a few days of work, he reinforces the stereotype, making it less likely that the employer will hire other black men. (I've heard the "I prefer Mexicans" excuse from black contractors as well as white ones.)

Some economists say that native-born laborers -- black, white and brown -- are simply discouraged by the low wages that so many employers can get away with paying to illegal workers. George Borjas and Lawrence Katz of Harvard University estimate that U.S. high-school dropouts would earn as much as 8 percent more if it weren't for Mexican immigration. Of course, 8 percent of not much is still not much.

What if my mother had been offering $20 an hour? Would she have found more willing workers? Probably. But globalization has taught us that the less complex the task, the lower the wage it will attract in a global marketplace. That's especially true if labor is willing to move around. Besides, in my mother's case, the work simply would not have been available. She wouldn't have paid $20 an hour; she couldn't afford it.

My mother's house is finally finished, and she's planning a housewarming party. My sister's father-in-law worked from dawn to dusk, and he found enough willing workers to get the job done. So that part of the tale has a happy ending.

But I'm stuck with a sense of deep unease and frustration over the prospects of so many young black men who are being pushed further and further out to the margins -- so far from the mainstream that they no longer identify with the rest of us. That story simply cannot end well.


(Cynthia Tucker is editorial page editor for The Atlanta Journal-Constitution. She can be reached by e-mail: cynthia@ajc.com.)

Anonymous said...

You can see it's obvious absence in the same way.

Such as your obvious lack of love for black men?

Aimee said...

Anonymous said...

"You can see it's obvious absence in the same way."

Such as your obvious lack of love for black men?


shrug . . . if you say so.

Anonymous said...

A better question from you would be "why are you DBR men coming to a site for BW and those who love them, when you are not a BW and clearly don't love them"? I personally would love to have an answer to that one!


I don't love black women?? ... that's odd since I'm married to a beautiful chocolate one. I simply think you should ignore these ignorant men instead of feeding them.

dottie said...

Jeez, whatever happened to having a preference and leaving it at that minus the "reasons" they don't prefer dating their own race? Why should we even explain to you in the first place?!

Anonymous said...

when you are not a BW and clearly don't love them

shrug...If you say so.

Anonymous said...

Jeez, whatever happened to having a preference

According to Evia, black men who have a preference for white, light, or non-black women are racist (she has said this). If that is true, wouldn't that be the same for black women who prefer white or other non-black men?

Anonymous said...

According to Evia, black men who have a preference for white, light, or non-black women are racist (she has said this). If that is true, wouldn't that be the same for black women who prefer white or other non-black men?

This anon wants to keep you going in circles ladies. Remember, you don't have to justify your choices to anyone.

I think Dottie said it best...


"having a preference and leaving it at that minus the "reasons" they don't prefer dating their own race?"

These "reasons" that many BM (in the public eye and private) give for dating/marrying out are OFTEN tinged with an obvious stereotypically based hatred of BW.

And this behavior is yet another symptom of being DBR.

I've yet to ever hear BW lump ALL BM - regardless of behavior - into the SAME bag when they're dating/marrying out.

For many BM on the other hand, this is standard practice.

Therefore, it goes without saying that having a preference doesn't necessarily have to be a negative thing. What makes it negative is when one HATES the opposite sex of ones own group SIMPLY FOR HAVING features, skin-tone, hair type that is identical to oneself.

This just isn't healthy and is a direct sign of self-hate.

Of all populations that date/marry out, I've personally only noticed this behavior most strikingly in many BM.

And there are numerous examples of this maladjusted behavior.

As long as a preference ISN'T associated with hatred of those who resemble oneself it's cool.

Evia said...

According to Evia, black men who have a preference for white, light, or non-black women are racist (she has said this). If that is true, wouldn't that be the same for black women who prefer white or other non-black men?

I wondered how long it would take before you brought me into this. LOL!! Of course you should know that I KNOW you're one of the regular DBR trolls that used to write me and follow me around. It's you or one of your DBR clones. I recognized all of your arguments way up in the comments here days ago--your phraseology, your arguments, your verbatim comments, etc. They're the SAME ones that you used to argue this same argument with me, so I just KNEW you were going to bring me into this. LOL! You're SO predictable.

You can't stand that I'm outting y'all bm racists who DISCRIMINATE against dark-skinned bw on the basis of skin shade just as racist whites discriminate against black people on the basis of our darker skin shade. It's the SAME thing. It's all about the dark skin shade with all of you racists.

And sistas, y'all have heard that argument about how black people can't be racists because we don't have power, but in this case bm ARE racists because they have the POWER to exclude bw. Men are still the hunters and if a large number of bm exclude certain women from the hunt--LOL!--then those women don't get chosen. They may get sexed, but they don't get chosen to be THE ONE that the man puts on his pedestal as his wife, which is the highest honor a man gives a woman. And you will see more and more that bm will even exclude light-skinned bw since they now can get a blonde. The fact is that as more bm go up the education and income and "success" ladder, many of them don't tend to hunt for or choose bw at all. Yet many of these same bm will criticize bw for not helping them to succeed. (smh) After they get up there or succeed, they then find all kinds of things wrong with bw. This is pretty foul, y'all. Anyone can say I'm lying, but just watch this trend.

The fact is that the bm, or I should say AA male discrimination against darker-skinned women on the basis of SKIN SHADE and "African" looks is RAMPANT in the AA community in 2007and this DBR man knows it and CONTINUES to try to justify it by claiming it's "just preference" or that "bw are the same way about bm." That is one of the BIG LIES that so many AA men like to float in order to cover their DBR, skin-shade discriminating butts!!

Of course, he will claim his wife/woman is chocolate but even if that's true, I'm not talking about exceptions; I'm talking about the rule or the pattern. Any AA woman KNOWS this to be true, yet bm will continue to trot out the 'bw's mass hallucination' argument again and again to make bw doubt that they're seeing what they're seeing. LOL!!

I have admitted that some bw do prefer a lighter or whiter man, but the numbers of them that do no where approaches the HUGE number of bm who have this preference and act on it in the most vile way by simultaneously trashing the looks and CHARACTER of damn near ALL bw (except the lightest ones) by calling bw nappy headed, ugly, ho's, bitches, masculine, skanks, too-demanding, and yadda yadda or publicly cosigning that crap (DL Hughley, Damon Wayans, etc) or SILENTLY cosigning it, which is also terrible. These loud, vitriolic condemnations, and from so many bm in the media and cyberspace about bw as 'less-thans' are very damaging to the psyches of younger bw and some older ones too. But we all know that there is a large number of AA men out there who want to hurt bw and/or won't lift a finger to protect bw from other men even when we're being pounded--because of bm's IRRATIONAL anger at bw.

That's one of the reasons for it and there is no agreement on WHY these men are so angry at bw--except that bw have refused to be their doormats.

There's a certain type of bw like me who is immune to these DBR men and they are VERY afraid that our influence will spread to other bw. So to this DBRbm: bw like me know what YOU and your ilk are but most importantly, we know who we are. But those younger bw don't have our awareness or self-esteem and cannot conceive that typical bm don't like them, have disdain for them, or that so many bm out there will use, abuse, and throw them and their children away. That's WHY they don't turn their backs on most of y'all.

Sistas, the frequency and/or severity of any occurrence determines whether it's a problem or not. For ex., you can be cut with a piece of paper and you can be cut with a knife. Which is more severe? Many bw prefer or are gravitating towards white men these days for VERY SOLID reasons or reasons other than simply a white skin shade. It's NOT for the wm's lighter skin shade. It's about QUALITY. Many bw these days tend to prefer these wm or white-skinned men due to the fact that many of these wm tend to be more "MARRIAGE" minded, more employed, more education-oriented, more sane-lifestyle oriented, more willing to remain financially and emotionally involved with their children, more willing to embrace the beauty and desirability of a nappy-headed more african-looking bw, more willing to try to fulfill their role as men, more willing to do their utmost to satisy that woman, tend to have a much greater capacity to see what's good and right about bw, AND there are many MORE wm of this mindset and this number is growing!!


It's about QUALITY. Bw are seeking loving, loveable, suitable and compatible MATES in the global village who ALSO possess high-quality fatherhood potential. It's not about skin shade for the vast majority of sistas who are with wm.

And Aimee, I agree with you. Bw actually need to go on a rampage against the perpetrators of this smut and poison that so many "brothaz" are spreading about bw. If we had done it 15 years ago, we wouldn't be in this situation. So many bw are STILL hesitant to fight back!! Bw must stop playing nice-nice and stop being so 'forgiving' and 'understanding' because SOME bm are our sworn enemies and you can tell them by their tracks.

Some of these DBR men come to these blogs like yours, Aimee, and deliberately use a very educated tone so they won't get kicked out and can get the chance to spread more poison, as this DBR has done. LOL!

Sistas, y'all have headed him off at every pass and countered him with flawless counterpoints, but he has an agenda to character-assasinate bw and if you noticed, he continued to TRY to do that--and he will always do that whenever he pops up.

Evia said...

Therefore, it goes without saying that having a preference doesn't necessarily have to be a negative thing. What makes it negative is when one HATES the opposite sex of ones own group SIMPLY FOR HAVING features, skin-tone, hair type that is identical to oneself.

Exactly!! The women are being PENALIZED and discriminated against for having the same complexion and/or hair texture that many of these men and their mothers have.

Many, many bw who date or marry wm or white-skinned men are NOT with those men because of skin shade--AT ALL. For ex. the ONLY unwavering preference I have in men is for HIGH-QUALITY. I would NEVER advocate that ANY woman date or marry a lesser-quality man. Women must always definitely marry at or above their level. Many striving bw find it almost impossible to date bm at their same level.

It's obvious that the overwhelming majority of bw who date or marry wm date or marry wm who are at least at the same level whereas the most important criteria for many bm seems to be for the woman to have light skin and less-nappy/or straight hair. LOL!

Another thing is that even if you take an aware bw who may prefer wm or white-skinned men, if a bm of QUALITY presents himself, she will give that bm a chance! Whereas, I would definitely bet big money that no matter how high-quality a bw may be, if she has more African looks, a typical racist bm would stomp on her if he has a chance of getting a whiter-skinned or white "beauty."

And one of those DBRbm actually had the audacity to say to me that these days a dark-skinned bw has to "compensate" for being dark-skinned in some way in order to compete with lighter women or mixed-looking women.

WHEW!! Bm like that had better count their blessings that a lot more bw don't think the way I do.

Anonymous said...

Evia and her lies again. Just making things up. True research showed that 75% of bm expressed no color preference while 80% expressed that they would never exclude a woman from a serious relationship because of skin shade. I take actual research over Evia's fabrications any day.

You ladies talk about brainwashing, but brainwashing is all that Evia ever attempts to do. That is why she makes long "pasionate" speeches instead of discussing facts intelligently. She wants to stir emotions instead of giving factual and balanced information. This is typical of a racist.

She states that black men discriminate against dark skinned black women yet doesn't explain how. The only "discrimination" that she can point out is actual preference by a minority of black men for lighter skinned women when it comes to dating, yet she has to restrain from calling it "preference" because most of her supporters have the same preference for white skin, blue eyes and blond hair. In other words, Evia attempts to hide her hypocrisy.

These "reasons" that many BM (in the public eye and private) give for dating/marrying out are OFTEN tinged with an obvious stereotypically based hatred of BW.

These "reasons" are the "reasons" given my most of Evia's supports and Evia herself. Talk about hypocrisy. And the truth is that the statement above is just something Evia has again fabricated. The vast majority of the the few black men who date out don't cite any negative feelings about black women to justify dating out. I don't recall OJ doing so. I don't recall Clarence Thomas doing so and he was shunned by black women because of his African features. I don't recall Taye Diggs doing so. How about some quotes and statistics?

Whereas, I would definitely bet big money that no matter how high-quality a bw may be, if she has more African looks, a typical racist bm would stomp on her if he has a chance of getting a whiter-skinned or white "beauty."

Who are these typical racist black men or are you trying to say that the typical black man is racist? Pure ignorance. The vast majority of black men are open to any black woman of high quality. Only folks like you divorce high quality black spouses to get a white spouse.

WHEW!! Bm like that had better count their blessings that a lot more bw don't think the way I do.

I agree. I am likewise glad that most bw don't hate the men of their own race as you do. My chocolate wife has yet to dump me for a white man as you did to your first husband.

Why is it never discussed how so many black mothers push their sons to bring home light skinned girls? Why is it never discussed how many black women declare dark skinned women and men as attractive despite their color. I've had dark skinned women question why I was dating a dark skinned woman.

Anonymous said...

if a bm of QUALITY presents himself, she will give that bm a chance!

That is more like, if any black man shows thug qualities, she will give that bm a chance. I would rather be turned down because of my skin complexion that turned down because I am too nice or not a thug.

felicia said...

Sistas,

Trust your own two eyes and your own personal experiences - and that of your girlfriends and female relatives - over ANYTHING you read from ANYONE on any of the blogs/boards.

Never blindly except someone else's version of reality over your own.

Choose QUALITY over color every time and you'll greatly increase your personal chances of meeting the right man.

Anonymous said...

This is so pathetic, but doesn't the state of black men in America say something about black women?

You can't find any marriageable men so you seek and covet white men. What a sad situation you black women are in.

Anonymous said...

Ssterhood is a wonderful thing!!!

Im loving how we keep shuting this DBR negro down!

I wonder why he keeps telling us about his alleged marriage to a "chocolate black woman" as if his "marriage" negates the colorstuckness of MILLIONS of bLack men?

Those contrived stats dont mean sh!t they were made up by ESSENCE with the AGENDA on keeping BW's focus on BM!! How dare you insult our intelligence, when we can see NO the whole world can see that BM are purveyor's of INTRA-racism.


The jig is up!! You might as well go to blackvoices, BET.COM and other messege board were DBRBM frequent and tell them that BW are on to them, and their days of "blind loyalty" are coming to a close LMAO :D

Like Evia said yall better be lucky most BW dont think like me ;)

JJ said...

My younger sister, an architect, appointed her Mexican-born father-in-law, an experienced carpenter (and American citizen), the new general contractor. I was to find men willing to help him paint, lift, scrape, fill, dig. The pay was hardly exorbitant -- $6 an hour. But it seemed reasonable for unskilled labor. So I looked among unemployed high school classmates, members of my mother's church and men standing on nearby street corners.


Six dollars an hour is HARDLY reasonable. ESPECIALLY for unskilled labor. The work is difficult and back breaking...just because it doesn't require a college education doesn't mean it isn't worked.

In this world you get what you pay for. At $6 an hour I'm not sure what you expect. Fast food joints pay more then that and the work is less strenuous.

Evia said...

Most women--who know better, have various choices in men AND who feel free to choose--choose QUALITY MEN. Quality trumps EVERYTHING else. So, that's the PLAN, sistas. SEEK QUALITY MEN. You only need ONE plan. Seek QUALITY MEN and spread the word to ALL the bw you can influence to do the same. Continue repeating that to yourself and to other bw! Remember that when bw know/learn better, they do better.

Quality in a mate is a lasting trait that pays off with all kinds of positive returns for you and your children for generations.

Never let anyone persuade you to mate with a low-quality man of ANY group. When folks pressure you to lower your standards, tell them to find you a high-quality man or leave you alone!! And you've got to mean it when you say this to them.

You have the power and hopefully the judgement to choose wisely. Your children and other progeny will be ever thankful to you if you use your power and judgement correctly. They are depending on you to make the correct decision when you make the MOST important decision that any woman ever makes. Choose a QUALITY man!

Anonymous said...

This is so pathetic, but doesn't the state of black men in America say something about black women?

The state of black men in America says everything about THEM. And the fact that some supposedly grown BM want to pass the buck and blame BW for their own numerous foibles is typical DBR behavior.

You can't find any marriageable men so you seek and covet white men.

What are you smoking? Smart BW who respect themselves aren't having ANY trouble finding marriageable men. As Evia's (and Sara's) blog can attest to pictorially. But you already knew that. The only BW who ARE having trouble in that department are those needlessly limiting themselves to BM.

DBRBM are just upset that growing numbers of BW are finally waking up and and ceasing to covet "brothers".

Which reduces the number of BW they can use.

ALSO, those who always preferred WM (and/or other non BM) are owning up to it, and coming out of the closet.

Members of the black community are not used to BW expressing such frankness.

Anonymous said...

DBRBM are just upset that growing numbers of BW are finally waking up and and ceasing to covet "brothers".

Where are your stats?

Anonymous said...

I wonder why he keeps telling us about his alleged marriage to a "chocolate black woman" as if his "marriage" negates the colorstuckness of MILLIONS of bLack men?

Because if you could actually read, you would have notice the way that men with opposing points of view are automatically accused, for no good reason, of dating or being married to white women. And every thing any of you 'ladies' state on this board is "alleged".

Those contrived stats dont mean sh!t they were made up by ESSENCE with the AGENDA on keeping BW's focus on BM!!

Those stats are more legitimate than the ALLEGED experiences of posters on a blog with a black male hate agenda.

and their days of "blind loyalty" are coming to a close LMAO :D

This statement was so stupid that you had to laugh at it yourself.

Anonymous said...

^^^ give it up already.... how many times do these ladies shut you down???

Anonymous said...

knockoutchick says:

I think the BM Anon should be asking why in many AA homes, same home, same parent/parents, same lessons taught yet we see often times the female children succeed and male children do not.

There are many black families that have recent generations of girls who have completed college with brothers who are unemployed or incarcerated.

Of course a male child needs a male father figure. Women can not succeed in raising male children alone. Boys need their fathers...and as we have had 2-3 generations of men abandon their male children, the results you can see on the street corners of America everyday.

I think the real question is....after 3 generations without male involvement in the lives of MOST of our children how can regain stability within our families or some semblance of a productive family unit.

Anonymous said...

^^^ give it up already.... how many times do these ladies shut you down???

One would be nice.

Anonymous said...

I think the BM Anon should be asking why in many AA homes, same home, same parent/parents, same lessons taught yet we see often times the female children succeed and male children do not.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03/30/AR2006033001341.html

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...

DBRBM are just upset that growing numbers of BW are finally waking up and and ceasing to covet "brothers".

Where are your stats?



Your continued presence here seems like pretty strong evidence.

Anonymous said...

knockoutchick said...

There are many black families that have recent generations of girls who have completed college with brothers who are unemployed or incarcerated.



LEFT BEHIND: Less-Educated Young Black Men in the Economic Boom of the 1990s

http://www.americanprogress.org
/issues/2006/01/b1549603.html

"Nevertheless, marriage and living with children is least likely for less-educated black men. Just 38.5 percent of black children under 18 years old live with both parents, compared with 76.9 percent of white children and 65.1 percent of Hispanic children. In 2001, only 7.4 percent of less-educated non-enrolled young black men were married, down from 15.7 percent in 1979, a 52.9 percent drop. However, the decrease in the proportion of less-educated black men who lived with their children was much less, from 12.4 percent in 1979 to 10.1 percent in 2001, an 18.5 percent decline."

"A surprising development was that by 2001, the proportion of married less-educated young white men (16.5 percent) and Hispanic men (16.4 percent) who had not completed high school slightly exceeded those who had graduated (14.2 and 16.3 percent, respectively). Less than 2 percent of less-educated young black men without a high school diploma were married in 2001, a staggering 82.5 percent drop from 1979, when 11.4 percent of these men were married."

"Almost a quarter of these less-educated non-enrolled young men reported that they were living independently in 2001. This was a substantial increase from the 11.6 percent who lived independently in 1979. A greater proportion of white (24.3 percent) and Hispanic less-educated non-enrolled young men (24.7 percent) lived independently than black less-educated non-enrolled young men (16.3 percent)."

Anonymous said...

knockoutchick said...

There are many black families that have recent generations of girls who have completed college with brothers who are unemployed or incarcerated.



LEFT BEHIND: Less-Educated Young Black Men in the Economic Boom of the 1990s

http://www.americanprogress.org
/issues/2006/01/b1549603.html

"Nevertheless, marriage and living with children is least likely for less-educated black men. Just 38.5 percent of black children under 18 years old live with both parents, compared with 76.9 percent of white children and 65.1 percent of Hispanic children. In 2001, only 7.4 percent of less-educated non-enrolled young black men were married, down from 15.7 percent in 1979, a 52.9 percent drop. However, the decrease in the proportion of less-educated black men who lived with their children was much less, from 12.4 percent in 1979 to 10.1 percent in 2001, an 18.5 percent decline."

"A surprising development was that by 2001, the proportion of married less-educated young white men (16.5 percent) and Hispanic men (16.4 percent) who had not completed high school slightly exceeded those who had graduated (14.2 and 16.3 percent, respectively). Less than 2 percent of less-educated young black men without a high school diploma were married in 2001, a staggering 82.5 percent drop from 1979, when 11.4 percent of these men were married."

"Almost a quarter of these less-educated non-enrolled young men reported that they were living independently in 2001. This was a substantial increase from the 11.6 percent who lived independently in 1979. A greater proportion of white (24.3 percent) and Hispanic less-educated non-enrolled young men (24.7 percent) lived independently than black less-educated non-enrolled young men (16.3 percent)."

Anonymous said...

Of course a male child needs a male father figure. Women can not succeed in raising male children alone. Boys need their fathers...and as we have had 2-3 generations of men abandon their male children, the results you can see on the street corners of America everyday.

Long but a MUST read.

Many young black men in Oakland are killing and dying for respect

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/12/09/MNS1RBLQ5.DTL

Anonymous said...

Your continued presence here seems like pretty strong evidence.

My presence here is evidence that black women no longer covet black men? How is that?

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...

"My presence here is evidence that black women no longer covet black men? How is that?"

It's evidence that you and other DBRBM are upset and seeking black women out to whine because we aren't seeking you out. If you wearn't upset and didn't have to seek us out, there would be no reason for you to be here.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
I think the BM Anon should be asking why in many AA homes, same home, same parent/parents, same lessons taught yet we see often times the female children succeed and male children do not.


I think that there needs to be two questions related to this. Number one is why we are seeing certain negative trends in our general American society, and why these negative trends seem to almost always be more pronounced in the black community.

The link above about how unmotivated boys today are becoming is important. The trends we are seeing with black males are more extreme versions of trends we are seeing with American males overall.

Women in general, according to the article, seem no less motivated to become independent and self sufficient, yet the boys are clearly less motivated. Statistically, there are more white women in college than white men.

Marriage is in decline for all Americans including whites.

What are these things happening and why do such poor trends almost always seem to be clearly more pronounced in the black community? Black women seem to generally fit right along in with other women in being motivated whereas black men not only fit right in with the lack of motivation for boys/young men in general, but are at a more extreme level.

Nowadays, there is a growing trend toward imprisonment of women. women are becoming the fastest growing prison population. The general incarceration rate for females is increasing at almost twice the rate of men. And as it goes, this growth is more extreme for black women.

So why do negative trends affect the black community in greater levels than it does other groups?

Anonymous said...

It's evidence that you and other DBRBM are upset and seeking black women out to whine because we aren't seeking you out. If you wearn't upset and didn't have to seek us out, there would be no reason for you to be here.

Who's whining? When you try to assign someone who is simply presenting an opposing point of view in a discussion some sort of emotional state, you are basically expressing your own emotional state with regard to the topic.

Why can't you simply deal with the subject matter as opposed to whining about why someone is here? The answer is that you fear being challenged.

pinkybear said...

"The answer is that you fear being challenged."
___________________________________

Why do you need to challenge anyone here ?

If you are not the described DBRbm, then what is there to challenge ?

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...

"Who's whining? When you try to assign someone who is simply presenting an opposing point of view in a discussion some sort of emotional state, you are basically expressing your own emotional state with regard to the topic."

No, when someone trolls a blog to argue with people that he claims he has "voted with his feet" to get away from, you don't have to assign them an emotional state: their behavior has made their emotional state obvious.

"Why can't you simply deal with the subject matter as opposed to whining about why someone is here?"

Because of your desperation to BE the subject matter. Every discussion that the women here have attempted to make about an issue of substance has resulted in you inserting some "argument" that is quickly and humiliatingly destroyed, so you have resorted to tit-for-tat "I'm rubber, you're glue" 3rd-grade level efforts to be disruptive.

Your desperation for attention from women who don't find you interesting is fascinating. You've been told, you could go to BET.com or Blackvoices and easily find your level, but you don't want that.

You want to be around us; but like a child with his face pressed against a candy-store window, seeing what you want and getting it two different things. The women here are beyond you. DBRBM like you are being left behind literally and figuratively. I'm sure it's scary since the black woman is all you've ever had to rely on, but now is the time to develop some strategies for relying on yourselves. You can't keep running after us, because more and more of us are refusing to go backward.

Anonymous said...

If you are not the described DBRbm, then what is there to challenge ?

The broad generalizations,the lies, the misrepresentations, the racism, the hypocrisy, the coonery, etc. etc.

Anonymous said...

No, when someone trolls a blog to argue with people that he claims he has "voted with his feet" to get away from

Never made such a claim. Keep on lying.

Anonymous said...

You can't keep running after us, because more and more of us are refusing to go backward.

Not what I've been seeing. But keep dreaming.

Anonymous said...

knockoutchick replies:


Anon says:
"Because of your desperation to BE the subject matter. Every discussion that the women here have attempted to make about an issue of substance has resulted in you inserting some "argument" that is quickly and humiliatingly destroyed, so you have resorted to tit-for-tat "I'm rubber, you're glue" 3rd-grade level efforts to be disruptive.

Your desperation for attention from women who don't find you interesting is fascinating. You've been told, you could go to BET.com or Blackvoices and easily find your level, but you don't want that."

Brilliant!

If a BW Anon visited websites for BM just to agitate and disrupt, the attacks would be relentless...we would be called everything but a child of God.

Anonymous said...

If a BW Anon visited websites for BM just to agitate and disrupt, the attacks would be relentless...we would be called everything but a child of God.

The difference is BW don't sink to the gutter level of DBRBM. It's unbecoming.

Instead, it's best to let them (DBR's) just continue to prove our point for us.

Which they do stupendously.

arthur said...

Aimee!

Allow me to cosign everyone who has complained about all the 'anonymous' posters. Trying to follow a conversation including 5 or 6 posters all named 'anonymous' is really confusing.

Is there any way to get people to at least pick a nickname? Just asking.

pinkybear said...

I said :

"Why do you need to challenge anyone here ?

If you are not the described DBRbm, then what is there to challenge ?"

Anon responded:

The broad generalizations,the lies, the misrepresentations, the racism, the hypocrisy, the coonery, etc. etc
___________________________________

Wow..the answer given is quite sad. Sad that anon has nothing better to do but try to "preach to a choir" that has long since left the building. So very sad.

Would anon like to provide a link to any of the blogs/boards where he has spoken out against "The broad generalizations,the lies, the misrepresentations, the racism, the hypocrisy, the coonery, etc. etc" directed at black women ?

If you are the same anon who says he has a black wife, I would think you would also like to spend time defending the good name of black women such as your wife. Heaven knows black women need more protection etc. given the onslaught of attacks against us.

You seem rather adept at scouring the internet for information pertaining to black women. Please do enlighten us.



pinky

Anonymous said...

If a BW Anon visited websites for BM just to agitate and disrupt, the attacks would be relentless...we would be called everything but a child of God.

On the Tire Black Man website, there is a host of black females who have, on more than one occasion, actually taken over threads. They are still urged to post there.

You may interpret opposing points of view as disruptive, but intelligent people welcome debate.

Every discussion that the women here have attempted to make about an issue of substance has resulted in you inserting some "argument" that is quickly and humiliatingly destroyed

You repeating this will not make it true.

Note that I have taken a handle. Now I will be curious as to how many of the female Anons do the same.

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