Wednesday, May 28, 2008

Reinterpreting Wesley Snipes

Wesley Snipes, by Laura B. Randolph
Ebony Magazine, September 1991,
v.46 n.11 p84

Hollywood's Hottest New Star Talks About: His Divorce, His Days on the Streets and Why He Doesn't Have 'Jungle Fever'

"I like a woman who is aware of her womaness in its universal form; a woman who isn't defined by what she's been told, or what she's been dictated to believe she's supposed to be. Those are the women who attract me. Women who allow that to embody them . . . and at the same time they're not in conflict with you because you're a man. They see the interconnectedness and the necessity of having a man--not a boy or male but a man--in their life. A woman who has that going on, she will grab my attention every time."

And, unlike the object of his onscreen character's desire, she probably won't be White. Though he allows, "If two people love one another that should be all that matters," offscreen, Wesley Snipes definitely doesn't have jungle fever. "It's more important to me to try and develop a good . . . relationship between a Black man and a Black woman," he says. 'That's the agenda right now and that's totally where my head is -- to redefine the image of Black male/female relationships and how important and valuable they are. We have to work on that tip. Once we work on that and relate to one another on a personal, professional, sexual and social sense, then we can venture out. Until then, we ain't ready for it."


Wesley Snipes, by Lynn Norment
Ebony Magazine, November 1997, v.53 n.1 p188

On the personal level, Snipes, a divorced father of a "precocious" 8-year-old son, Jelani, says he enjoys spending time with "spirited" women. "Either the hot-headed ones or the ones who just think they're divas," he explains. "I like them because they have spice and creativity. I like a woman who reads. I think a number of my
relationships [ended] because she didn't read and we didn't have anything to talk about.... But I'm not into the ones who want to jump up and fight and get loud. That's not my flavor."

The Asian model and restaurateur he introduces as "my lady, Donna [Wong]" has been Snipes' companion for the past year and a half. When asked if he dates Black women, he says: "Primarily all of my life I've dated Black women.... Oh, most definitely. Oh, my God. Mostly. But it just so happens that now I'm dating an Asian woman. It's different. Different energy, different spirit, but a nice person." He says he is not ready for marriage; nor is Donna. "She's got to learn to deal with the love scenes in the movies first," says Snipes as he chuckles. "Got to get to a place where it's very comfortable."

Wesley says he realizes that there are Black women still who get an attitude about Black men with Asian, White or Hispanic women. "I know we've all been hurt, and we're all very wounded," he says, addressing Black women. "We have to acknowledge that, both male and female, in the Black experience. We're a wounded people. And we want to possess and we want to own. We don't want to compromise. We feel like we've compromised enough. But in any relationship you have to compromise. There's no way around it. And I say to Black women also, Brothers who are very, very successful, or who have become somewhat successful, usually it's been at a great expense, unseen by the camera's eye.... "He doesn't want to come home to someone who's going to be mean and aggravating and unkind and who is going to be `please me, please me.' He doesn't want to come home to that. He doesn't want to come home to have a fight with someone who is supposed to be his helpmate. So it's very natural that he's going to turn to some place that's more compassionate.... You've worked hard and you deserve to come home to comforting. And usually a man who has that will appreciate it. Because I've never known one cat, all those cats I've hung out with and still hang out with, who found something that they really, really like and didn't go back to it. They all go back. It's very simple."

When asked for clarification, Snipes emphasizes that he is not saying that a Black woman can not be that type of woman a man wants to come home to. "Not at all," he declares. "Absolutely not. That's the point. I want to come home and I don't want to argue. I want to be pleasing, but if I ask you to get me a glass of water, you're going to say, `Them days is over.' Please. Come on," Wesley says. "A man likes that. I don't know why. It's been that way forever. It makes him proud, you know, like when the guys come over and your lady comes out with a tray of food and says `I made this up for you.' And the guys are like, `Oh man, you've got a great women.' And the man says, `Yeah, I do.' A man will appreciate it when you're kind and when you're nice. "For successful women, it's hard," he continues, obviously quite comfortable and articulate on the subject of relationships. "The competition is fierce. And if he's a man of success and power who happens to be handsome, of course you're not the only one who thinks he's handsome. But you don't have to punish him because of that once you get with him. Don't punish him because somebody else likes him."

Continuing with his openness, Snipes says he's had his heart broken more than once, and at times by Black women. "Most definitely. Most definitely," he says. In his new film, the dramatic love-triangle "One Night Stand" hearts are broken as Snipes' character is caught in a love triangle between two beautiful women--one of whom is blond(Nastassja Kinski), the other Asian (Ming-Na Wen) . . .

"One Night Stand" originally was written for Nicholas Cage, but Cage was preoccupied with another film. The director sought Snipes because he wanted someone with a strong acting background but who also would be attractive to Nastassja Kinski. "It was never an issue of the interracial aspect at all," Snipes says, adding that "the only thing we don't have in this film is a Sister."

He says there were discussions concerning whether his character's wife should be Black or whether she should be White. "Early on there were concerns about the Black community reminiscing to Jungle Fever, and missing the point of the story," he says. "So we didn't want to go that route. And I've done a lot of movies where I've had White women as my co-stars. That would have been kind of redundant. So I said, `Well, let me go either Spanish or Asian. That's something unusual.'"



Wesley Snipes has been in the news recently primarily because of his troubles with the Internal Revenue Service. The 45-year-old actor was sentenced last month to three years in prison on three misdemeanor counts of willful failure to file income tax returns since 1998. Wesley Snipes has long been notorious among black women, however, for a different reason—for his being an icon of the specific type of interracial dater that black people often state they resent above all others: the one who not only dates “outside his race,” but justifies his doing so by insulting and belittling the members of the opposite sex of his own race. This loathsome reputation was earned by Mr. Snipes through the above statements quoted from at length above from the second article featured in Ebony magazine where he discloses his relationship with Ms. Wong, who is apparently now his wife.

I remember reading this article, and yes, finding it pretty offensive. It seemed to rely implicitly on the most common stereotypes about black women (“mean and aggravating and unkind, argumentative, unyielding, blah, blah, blah). Yet, at the same time, I tried to take Snipes at his word, and view his words from the perspective that he claimed to be offering them, as equally applicable to both black men and black women in the dating world. And viewing his statements from a gender neutral perspective (even if he did not actually express them in that way), he articulated an uncomfortable but very real factor that does haunt many relationships between black people, romantic and otherwise: the way that the stresses we face as a people in the larger society effect the manner in which we interact with each other.

Typically, those black people who oppose IRRs who bother to formulate a non-emotional rationale for their opposition usually found their reasoning on the belief that no other people can understand this stress, this “woundedness” that Snipes refers to, and that attempting to explain to clueless non-black (especially white) partners what we have to cope with would only add stress to a relationship. How would you feel coming home to a white husband or wife after being called a “nigger” in traffic? Or worse, being denied a job you were qualified for, or a promotion you had earned? Could they even comprehend what it means when you show up for an interview which HR had expressed nothing but enthusiasm about, only to see their faces fall when YOU walk through the door? Can they really empathize when you express frustration with always being last hired and first fired, with always having to be twice as good to get half as far? What if your lover, your best friend, that one person who is supposed to have your back, dismissed your distress, and suggested that you simply wore the wrong shoes or hairstyle, or someone else was just more “qualified”?

However, what Snipes expressed was the other side of this equation—what if coming home to someone who doesn’t bear that particular burden is not additionally stressful, but less so? Are there benefits to sharing life with someone with a “different energy,” as he put it?

One of the main reasons that black women have often reacted with such knee-jerk resentment to IRRs is precisely because, too often, black men’s preference for non-black women is expressed in terms of such women possessing a “lightness” and “ease” that black women do not—a lightness that, to the extent it exists, comes at least in part from not having the same kind of struggles with our society that black men try to escape by pursuing non-black women, and, of course, from having a level of support as women from their men that black women have not enjoyed. To be rejected not only because you bring the same involuntarily shouldered burdens to the relationship as the man, but also the additional burdens of his neglect, hostility and exploitation, has often been too much for black women to bear.

As Halima’s concept of racio-misogyny articulates, for some black men, sexism against black women is not merely a function of gender but also of race—resentment is derived as much from black women’s nappy hair, dark skin, broad features, “lack of femininity,” the way in which her blackness precludes her from being the trophy that Snipes describes (“the guys are like, `Oh man, you've got a great women.' And the man says, `Yeah, I do. ”)--as it is from her being a woman. His words here remind me of the scene in “Their Eyes Were Watching God” in which Tea Cake brags about the fair-skinned Janie’s susceptibility to bruising after a beating. Black equals strong, loud, unsusceptible to bruising--mule-like in toughness and resiliency. As Snipes notes, a man wants to be proud of his woman: he wants someone pleasing, someone compromising, someone compassionate—to him. But as Snipes acknowledges in passing, black women, who must cope with many of the same stresses as black men, plus others that black men don’t experience, may also want these some qualities in a mate. And while black women are constantly discouraged from being too black, too loud, too angry and too tough, these qualities are considered the sine qua non of black manhood in our society. When a black woman finds a man who is comfortable in his manhood without the barrier of this armor, is she expected not to find the experience as appealing as all the black men who have lauded the comparative “softness” of non-black women?

I have always argued that there is no group in Western society that is more restricted from being gentle, nurturing, vulnerable, and humane than black men. Our history makes it clear how this restriction has occurred, as well as it’s tragic results. But, today, much of the enforcement of “hardness” for black men in our society comes from other black men and the “community” at large. Robbed of other avenues of achieving manhood, too many brothers settle for a caricature of masculinity that consists of little more than the ability to brutalize and exploit others without conscience. And while we must always remember the historical roots of this tragic phenomenon, as black women, we are not somehow obligated to lay down and sacrifice ourselves too it. We, like Mr. Snipes, have a right to enjoy a “different energy” in our intimate relationships, to be respected, to be pleased, to come home to peace and compromise. Certainly, that energy can be found with a black man—but it might also be found with a non-black man, and if it is, you should feel no more guilt or shame about that fact than Mr. Snipes. While many have argued that a to reject a damaged brother, especially one damaged by racism, when you have it in your power to nurture him “back to health” is a betrayal, your first concern must always be what cost will such nurturance impose on you? Certainly the mean, aggravating, unkind women that Mr. Snipes left behind for Ms. Wong could probably use some “nurturance” as well, but is that really Mr. Snipes’ responsibility? Would it even be the most effective way for him to have a positive impact on his people’s well being as a whole—to attempt to save one angry woman from herself? In the same way, we as black women must be grateful when we find that “different energy” in our personal relationships, that peace and security that allows us to blossom in every aspect of our lives, and empowers us to be that much more effective in all that we do. We deserve that as much as Mr. Snipes.

242 comments:

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Anonymous said...

Its sad that the trolls even waste their time on here spouting their so called "defenses". You are not going to change any minds. Blogs like these are encouraging Black women to see with their eyes and look to their own experiences for reality and not to the words of some guy who just wants to protect his image as a Black male at all costs and cares nothing about the treatment and happiness of Black women. So why waste your breath? Because even if some women take the time out to debate with you, you aren't going to suddenly make any of them believe their experiences were all false and they had it wrong all along.

Its especially stupid because most of the things protested as being so untrue in regards to Black men are so readily available to be seen as complete fact. I mean we have trolls here actually denying the absenteeism of Black fathers when stats point to it, everyday experiences point to it, etc. I would venture to say that probably at least 2 out of every 5 trolls even grew up without a father himself lol.

We have trolls denying the oppression of Black women in comparison to Black men when stats are readily available to show that women still get paid less than men for the same work, still face glass ceilings, name discrimination, Black women being exploited and denied jobs because they are Black women, Black women being publicly humiliated on national stages and the perpetrators retaining their positions and earning power, etc.

We even have trolls denying like Black men are not unabashed and admitted colorists that make their preference for lighter skinned Black women very clear. Even when they say it in music, they say it in interviews, they say it by who they choose to date, etc. And this are just a few obvious truths about Black men that trolls deny vehemently when they are obvious general truths.

Its really a sad state of affairs when even trolls know that they're not going to change any minds and they are still working hard trying to do so. I guess Black women eventually not being under the paws of another group, in this case Black men, really scares the shit out of some people.

HBC said...

@Anon-July 5, 2008 3:31 PM, Anon-July 5, 2008 8:08 PM, and Anon-July 5, 2008 8:10 PM,

Good for you for unapologetically expressing your feelings. Please, don't let anyone tell you that your negative feelings toward bm aren't warranted because they are. The day bm stop being disrespectful to us as bw. I will respect them in turn because I don't respect those who don't respect me, it's that simple(but realistically I know this won't happen).

I see nothing wrong with venting, venting is a good thing. You let it all out, you heal and then you move on.

But, don't let anyone tell you that your feelings aren't valid.

There are countless videos on the net featuring bm bashing the hell out of bw. There is even one advocating killing us. I'm not saying we should bash them in return because of this. But, what are we suppose to do? Stay silent, do nothing,wait until all hell breaks loose around us as bw?

Some of us still have to live around and encounter these fools on a daily basis, so it's not so easy to just ignore them or act, as if they don't exist, just because we have decided to date men of other races. We as bw/bm, are tied to one another in some way or the other,due to the fact that, we share the same skin color(some may disagree with me on this point, that's okay).

Although, I try not to internalize the hate they spew at me everyday and I ask other bw not to either.

My point is, what gives someone who doesn't know you, the right to tell you how you should feel when they haven't lived your life or had your personal experiences? I have never gotten that.

Anonymous said...

Whatever you want in a relationship you can have it, and there are black men who have the qualities you want. Just like there are white men who have the qualities you want. You all have your minds shut down on black men being viable, period. It's really sad. very, very sad. Because you don't have to put anyone down to hold yourself up. and you don't have to denigrate an entire group of people (which is what I see being done to black men all up and through this blog) out of some crazy sense of self-defense or justice.

Do me a favor sis, and check this guy out on youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/user/SrgtWilliepete

As a matter of fact, just type in Black women on youtube search and tell me what results you get. Once you do that, you might understand how ridiculous I find your post to be. The funny thing is, a person like jason, who co-signed your sentiments, will see the pure hatred spouted for Black women on youtube and he won't denounce it, he will defend it and say there is some truth to it. Meanwhile when sisters make blogs like these and the ones I've seen like it, which aren't even made out to belittle Black men as the barrage of youtube attacks on Black women are, but rather present Black women with messages of uplifting and empowerment, they are met with pure negativity.

I suppose you may think this post was very profound but all it did was prove what a lot of these blogs have been saying. The Black community at large has had no problems belittling the Black woman--making her feel ugly, making her feel pitiful, making her feel unintelligent, blaming all its problems on her--and it is met with little resistance. This has been going on for CENTURIES and usually it has been done either for the sake of Black men or, in current times, done BY BLACK MEN. And now that messages like this blog are getting out to Black women that they don't have to take the abuse they've been dealt by their own communities, it just seems so ironic that now everybody wants to talk about having a "unified front" and that now everybody seems to be able to identify a so-called attack on a particular group.

I guess in short I'm saying, your response to this blog and the ones like it and your probable lack of response to the plentiful attacks on Black women only further illustrate the unjust "whipping boy" role that Black women have had to endure for centuries and, therefore, the necessity of blogs like these.

Anonymous said...

First of all, you don't know how Jason will respond to anything.

Second of all, it is quite interesting that those Youtube videos you speak of practically ALL come from SrgtWilliepete. He is practically the only source of the videos you speak of. Take him away, and those videos critical of black women are few and far between. Heck, melosidad1 is a source of some of the few others and she's a black woman.

So you have one individual going around criticizing black women and that equates to black men going around criticizing black women. On blogs like these, we see a variety of women criticizing black men (though still a relative minority).

You have like one or two message boards of ranting black men and a growing multitude of blogs like this. The criticism of black men by black women is far more prevalent on the web than the reverse.

Anonymous said...

These women will totally ignore a message board like the one below in favor of a place where ignorance is rampant. The site below suffers from the white male worshipping black female trolls despite there being no bashing of black women. Black women are constantly put on a pedestal there:

http://www.mybrotha.com/forums/default.asp

Anonymous said...

hbc, from the bottom of my heart, I want to thank you for the grand support for me and and the kind words too in your post to me. They warmed my heart, and if I could us one example of how I want ALL of we Black women to support each other, it would be your fine post.

Thank you again dear sis.

Anonymous said...

anon@ 9:27 PM on 7/5/08.

PREACH SISTA! You are speaking the PLAIN OL' TRUTH, and to those who don't like it, WE DON'T CARE! LOL!

Thank you!

Anonymous said...

anon @ 9;45 PM on 7/5/08.


I sincerely hope that that sista wakes up to the reality of the situation and stops drinking the "defend BM no matter what" kool-aid.

All sistas who think like her, PLEASE wake up and save yourselves, if we pull together we can do this!

Anonymous said...

Jason with his bs lies as usual. He can come here and disrespect and condescend to sistas all day and all night long, but he will NEVER say anything to his brithers disrespecting us.

What a triflin' phony.

Anonymous said...

These BM trolls just keep a comin'! We just CAN'T get rid of their sorry behinds!


Go attend to your precious WW!

Anonymous said...

" Anonymous said...
jalilmaster, please, please understand something my dear sister. I grew up seeing BM in my family as well as in my neighborhood do NOTHING but hurt and disrespect other Black females, as well as myself. That is where my anger and hatred of those disgusting bastards comes from"

I perfectly understand that. However, if you still have all this intense feeling in your heart, you are letting them get to you. Ignore them. That is wha they hate the most.
___________________________

"If I offended you by calling you a hater of BW, I am truly, deeply, sorry. I am a hot-headed girl, and I often let my temper get the better of me when discussing the constant injustices and abuse we face! I can see that you truly care about BW, so I was wrong to call you a hater of BW."

Don't worry, it is VERY HARD to offend me. I'm not bothered by most things. I was not in the slightest bit offended, just had to coerrect you on some things as you seemed to think I wasn't a black woman!
________________________

"However, I will NOT apologize for hating BM, nor will I apologize for thinking that they do NOT deserve the fairness/support from such a fine, beautiful sista as yourself."

I really think that hating black men does nothing for you. If it's that much of an issue, then you should have the attitude of nonchalance and indifference.
_________________________

" and I will NOT apologize for thinking that they are ALL worthless, BW-hating, misogynistic in general, lying, phony, bullshitting, lazy, insensitive, selfish, arrogant, spoiled, and abusing pieces of garbage who do not deserve ONE IOTA of loyalty, love, kindness, or anything else good from we sistas!"

Okay, I'm going to have to leave it there. ALL black men are not bad, despite what some want to believe. Everyone in any entire group cannot be bad, IMHO.
____________________________


"I hope you can forgive me my dear sister, I want to be your friend, I don't want to fight with you. We can agree to disagree, but I have NO DESIRE to fight with ANY of my dear, sweet, intelligent, and yes, strong Black sisters."

There is nothing to forgive. As I told you before, it is very hard to offend me. I hold nothing against you whatsoever.

Anonymous said...

Aimee, please, you should really consider using some sort of banning mechanism because this is gettig ridiculous! I was even going to reply to Jason latest post, till ofcourse, I got to the part where he wrote that black men face more opression than black women, and decided he hasn't got enough brain capacity to comrehend anything being said.

He has on previous occassions tried to derail our discussion and has once again succeeded. Aimee it is your blog. Therefore, you should makesure that discussion is kept on topic. I really wish you'd start to delete that Jason fellow's posts, because it is really getting silly. None of the post he's made, and there have been many, have ever had ANYTHING WHATSOEVER to do with the topic at hand. I see a pattern, and wee all keep falling for it. I have decided to ignore him. If we all do, it will go away. However, Aimee you can help by not allowing it to post it's nonsense as it smells up this blog space!

Anonymous said...

"I really wish you'd start to delete that Jason fellow's posts, because it is really getting silly. None of the post he's made, and there have been many, have ever had ANYTHING WHATSOEVER to do with the topic at hand. I see a pattern, and wee all keep falling for it. I have decided to ignore him. If we all do, it will go away. However, Aimee you can help by not allowing it to post it's nonsense as it smells up this blog space!"

I would co-sign enthusiastically, but then I'd just be repeating myself (com. #201).

I may do it anyway.

CO-SIGN!!!

Anonymous said...

JaliliMaster said...
I was even going to reply to Jason latest post, till ofcourse, I got to the part where he wrote that black men face more opression than black women, and decided he hasn't got enough brain capacity to comrehend anything being said.


I have the brain capacity to comprehend research:

http://www.allacademic.com//meta/p_mla_apa_research_citation/1/8/4/2/9/pages184295/p184295-2.php

Black Men in Corporate America
Ron Stewart, SUNY–Buffalo State

Abstract

The literature and anecdotal information within discusses employment discrimination
experienced by African Americans in general and job discrimination experienced by African
American men in particular. Emphasis is given to discussing the emergent practice on the part of corporate employers to hire Black women instead of Black men. Factors influencing this
practice are discussed and some recommendations for ameliorating the phenomenon is tendered.
Suggestions for further examination of topic are presented.

INTRODUCTION

Black people suffer racial discrimination in the American workplace. However, it is
becoming clearer that the racism that Black people face is also gendered. While past feminist
analysis suggests that Black women suffer discrimination because they are both Black and
women, it has been less clear whether the racial discrimination that Black men face is also
gendered. This article suggests that the discrimination that Black men face in many American
work sites is also gendered...they suffer discrimination because they are both Black and men, or
Blackmen—one word.


One set of sites where the gendered racism of Black men is becoming more evident is in
the corporate boardrooms and professional settings of American institutional life. Here, to the limited extent that any minorities are welcomed, it may be that Black women are becoming the preferred minority over Black men. While this kind of racial/gender stratification should have no implications for racial solidarity, it becomes important in the context of whether hirings of Black women in corporate settings bar legal claims of discrimination by Black men.

http://www.russellsage.org/programs/recent/inequality/

Yet, as Harry Holzer of Michigan State University reports in What Employers Want: Job Prospects for Less-Educated Workers, the first book to emerge from the project, many employers exhibit strong racial preferences in their hiring, based on their stereotyped expectations of on-the-job performance. White men and women are preferred over any other racial group, Hispanics are preferred over blacks, and black women are preferred over black men.

http://www.blackcommentator.com/40/40_cover_pr.html

In his landmark study When Work Disappears: The World of the New Urban Poor, sociologist William Julius Wilson found that employer bias against African-American workers in the Chicago area was highly informed by gender. He cited the University of Chicago's Urban Poverty and Family Life Study (UPFL), which interviewed 179employers in Chicago and Cook County. "Although black women also suffer as a consequence of the negative attitudes held by employers," Wilson reported, "in an overwhelming majority of cases in which inner-city black males and females are compared, the employers preferred black women."

Anonymous said...

Yes of course. Black women being hired at a higher rate than Black men has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that they graduate at a higher rate and there are more of them available to hire. Seriously. Logic has no place here so there's obviously no connection here. Its all got to do with the po Black man who now, suddenly, faces gender discrimination.....AS A MAN!

My ribs are seriously hurting at the laughing I'm doing over here. Seriously, is there no length Black men WON'T go to to blame somebody else for their problems? Its almost as if Jason is here just to be a shining example of what the type of Black men the blog talks about. IE completely selfish as well as completely incapable of accepting responsibility for his own failures.

Anonymous said...

I will only say this Jason: did it ever occur to you that these employers prefer black females because we tend to perform better on the job AND are, on average, more reliable. If you see research that negates your opinion, you would argue that it is false. When it supports any of your opinions, it becomes the Holy Grail to you. I am not interested in opression olympics. Black women by far outnumber black men in college admission rates, college graduation rates etc., even though they may be from the same background/community/family. So I wonder how it would come as a surprise to you that black women are employed in corporate jobs more than black men, when the proportion of QUALIFIED black women(due to having a sufficient and adequate degree) far outnumber the proportion of QUALIFIED black men!

Afterall, for the same job, white men earn the most, then black men, then white women, then black women....FOR DOING THE SAME JOB! Are they(black men) still more discriminated against? Afterall Jason, you are the one who not too long ago, posted some tripe about black men outearning black women in the same industry/business-type, yet now, you want to argue that black men face the most opression? I remeber all the things people posted, even if it was weeks ago.

You wonder why I have no time for you.

Once again Aimee, you would be well pressed to delete any of this Jason fellows future posts.

Anonymous said...

"Yes of course. Black women being hired at a higher rate than Black men has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that they graduate at a higher rate and there are more of them available to hire. Seriously. Logic has no place here so there's obviously no connection here. Its all got to do with the po Black man who now, suddenly, faces gender discrimination.....AS A MAN!"

Please someone explain this to Jason. Actually, don't, I'd rather he just went away and disappeared into oblivion!

Anonymous said...

I will only say this Jason: did it ever occur to you that these employers prefer black females because we tend to perform better on the job AND are, on average, more reliable.

Is that why these employers prefer white and Hispanic men and women over black women; because they tend to perform better on the job AND are, on average, more reliable?

Anonymous said...

This was a really good topic, but unfortunately it was derailed.

Anonymous said...

You're giving Jason (and his ilk) exactly what he wants. Why do some of you ladies continue to engage with him? Are we so thin-skinned that every barb he throws we have to respond? SMH.

Aimee, I understand you are a busy attorney, and have very little time to do moderate this blog, but I think you should let someone moderate for you if you are unable to.

Anonymous said...

Refuting the lies and bias Jason spews against Black women is kind of important to address if you asked me, especially since they are being presented on a board meant for us and by us. We don't want anyone coming here, seeing our views, then seeing Jason attacking them and Black women in general, and not say anything about it. Then it would be viewed as if we don't have any defense for his lies which we all know very well that we do, especially since most of the time the logic behind Jason's arguments is extremely poor.

The best solution to not having him and his ilk derail topics would be to ban his IP or simply delete all of his posts. Also on another note, this topic was started quite some time ago and the discussion was fairly complete by the time this "back and forth" began, so don't give Jason too much credit for derailing a discussion that had already run its course anyway.

Anonymous said...

But the ladies already refuted him a while back, Aimee included, and it should have been left at that. Why is it continuing in the 200-plus post? Aimee knew this and she left him alone a long time ago to stew in his own juices, so did Evia. When you stop responding to trolls they dry up. This tiring and demoralizing back and forth volley the posters are having with him is counterproductive. He is not going to cease his postings until a moderation is set in place, so why continue to engage with him? It makes no sense.

Peace,
Anon @4:19 pm

Anonymous said...

Moderation is severely needed!!!!!!!!!!

Anonymous said...

Due to racism, whites get more employment than others, asians and hispanics more than blacks. As...simple...as....that. Men get more opportunities than women. So if black women are more likely to be employed than black men, yet black men more likely to get a higher pay than a black woman for doing the same job, one must be a knucklehead to say that black men are more discrimiated against.

If an employer employs you, he needs you. It is his choice however, if he increases your pay. So is bm get more pay than bw for the same job, how does one not understand that the bw is facing another realm of discrimination from which the bm is benefitting?!

Anonymous said...

The problem is that black men are not payed more than black women FOR THE SAME WORK. Same goes for men in general. The exact opposite is the case. Yes, men, on average, make more money than women, yet somehow from this, the misconception that men are being payed more for THE SAME WORK has developed. The book, "Why Men Earn More," by Dr. Warren Farrell explains this and the website below summarizes:

http://www.bankrate.com/brm/news/career/20050307a1.asp

For decades, we in the media have reported that women earn less than men. As a result, we've created a generation of angry women and self-conscious men.

A new book, "Why Men Earn More," by Dr. Warren Farrell, shows we've been dead wrong: FOR THE SAME WORK, women earn MORE than men. His findings are based on a comprehensive review of government and other statistics.

Farrell is no right-wing misogynist. He ran for the Democratic nomination for California governor. He's the only man ever elected three times to the board of the National Organization for Women in New York City. And he's no intellectual lightweight; the Financial Times named him one of the world's top 100 thought leaders.


Farrell shows that because of supply and demand, jobs that pay more are typically the jobs that have unpleasant environments, require harder-to-attain skills, require longer work hours, are unrewarding to most people, demand financial risk, are inconvenient and are hazardous.

Many more men than women are willing to accept such jobs, even when women are paid more. For example, women sales engineers earn 143 percent of their male counterparts' salaries, yet less than 20 percent of sales engineers are women.

He notes that men put in more hours:

That's obvious, but key. For example, Farrell cites research that "Fortune 1000 CEOs typically paid their dues with 60- to 90-hour workweeks for about 20 years. Yet women are less than half as likely as men to work more than 50 hours a week. And women are less likely to agree, every few years, to uproot themselves and their families to far-flung places to get the necessary promotions."

Farrell notes that men tend to be more productive in the hours they do work.

If women produce as much as men, the good news is they will likely be rewarded. For example, women's advocacy organizations complain that female professors earn less than male professors, but Farrell cites research that among professors who produce an equal number of journal articles, "men were likely to be paid the same or just slightly LESS than women."

So again, you have provided nothing to support your claim that black women are more oppressed than black men, yet I have provided clear research that goes against your claim.

Anonymous said...

Oh, lor.

Jason, King -- well, Jester -- of Thread Derailment hasn't been banned yet??

Anonymous said...

http://mediamatters.org/items/200605160002

More reason to never take Black men's complaints about unequal treatment seriously. The same techniques used to perform studies he will readily cite to minimize Black women's struggle, he will avoid and curse these same techniques when done to disregard and minimize the discrimination Black men face. He wants everyone to take into account racism as to why Black men show up looking horrible inept in every statistical category, but when it comes to women, especially Black women.......what's sexism?

http://www.campusprogress.org/opinions/2925/not-so-equal-pay-day
http://www.salon.com/mwt/broadsheet/2007/04/23/wage_gap/
http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0412-30.htm
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1272/is_2675_130/ai_77400389/pg_1


And yes, even with all these links showing how stupid his assertions are, Jason will continue to deny and perhaps even call the wahhmbulance to help lower his blood pressure in order to make Black men out to be the ultimate victim of oppression when they aren't even close.

Anonymous said...

It's funny that even one of your own links attributes 3/4 of the gender gap to women's choices. But her are a bunch of links for ya. Enjoy.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/03/nyregion/03women.html?ex=1343880000&en=110c03ba83fd879c&ei=5124&partner=digg&exprod=digg

http://www.iwf.org/campus/show/18948.html

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6W5W-4F4HN50-1&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=b8a3eb63f9b69e2f7d970569885b1839

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0HSP/is_1_4/ai_66678566/pg_1?tag=artBody;col1

http://www.nysun.com/opinion/whos-the-better-feminist/53330/

http://www.thepriceofliberty.org/08/05/19/roberts.htm

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4188/is_20070408/ai_n18998311

http://www.ravnwood.com/archives/004949.php

http://www.ywcaboulder.org/get_involved/the_wage_gap.htm

http://1918.com/article.php?article_id=2389&type=read

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/leo031405.asp

http://www.mrcranky.com/movies/mansfieldpark/25.html

And yes, even with all these links showing how ignorant her assertions are, J will continue to deny and perhaps even call the wahhmbulance to help ease her unending PMS in order to make Black women out to be the ultimate victims of oppression when they aren't even close.

Anonymous said...

According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics' (BLS) 2004 wage data for full-time wage and salary workers aged 16 and older, women earned on average 80.4 percent of men's weekly median earnings. In virtually every occupation listed, men earned a higher median wage than women, regardless of job title.

Undercutting the theory that men earn more than women because they simply work longer hours, the nonpartisan Economic Policy Institute's (EPI) analysis of average hourly wages by gender found that, in addition to earning higher salaries, men earned more than women on an hourly basis. For instance, in 2003, most men earned between $7.46 and $43.48 an hour, compared with women's hourly earnings, which ranged from $6.67 to $33.40.

Additionally, government wage data also indicate that the gender gap in wages still persists when work experience is taken into account. The March 2001 Current Population Survey (CPS) shows that regardless of work experience, men still consistently earn more than women.

To be sure, laissez faire economists believe that pay discrepancies between men and women are due principally to the nature of jobs typically held by women and the institutional segregation of jobs in the workforce. But the wage gap represents inequality as well as discrimination. The report by AAUW noted that the same jobs for the same work paid less, and even when men and women did the same job, men often had better titles, earning them bigger salaries. In other words, laissez faire economists are falsely chalking pay discrimination up to “the way things are.”

The AAUW study set out to answer a very simple question: "If a woman and a man make the same choices, will they receive the same pay?" The answer is no. A year after college graduation -- when work experience and parenthood are the least likely to be factors -- that pay gap already shows up among men and women working full time. The typical retort from pay gap deniers might be: "That's because women tend to study softer subjects that lead to lower-paying jobs." This is actually true. Yet the pay gap persists even when looking at men and women who studied the same subjects as undergrads. "In education, women earn 95 percent as much as their male colleagues earn, while in math, women earn 76 percent as much as men earn," reports Reuters.

Naysayers claim that there really is no pay gap -- the shortfall is due to ''choices'' that women make: Females just naturally like the jobs with lower pay or less risk. Tell that to the women cleaning toilets at the airport. In reality, in every field, from law and medicine to teaching or clerking at department stores, the women make less for doing exactly the same work as the men.



Yes, all of these findings are very consistent with "choices" lol. Keep on proving how pathetic Black men are by even trying to insinuate women don't earn less than men even when they make the same choices. You're helping us more than you're hurting ;)

Anonymous said...

The AAUW study set out to answer a very simple question: "If a woman and a man make the same choices, will they receive the same pay?" The answer is no.

But let's look at what happened when the study by the AMERICAN ASSOCIATION OF UNIVERSITY WOMEN (AAUW) is statistically analyzed by experts:

http://glennsacks.com/blog/?p=1529#more-1529

Media Declines to Report Study Showing Female Execs Earn More than Male Ones

December 11th, 2007 by Glenn Sacks

Florida International University Psychology Professor Gordon E. Finley, Ph.D. (pictured) has some interesting thoughts on the way the media reports the alleged gender wage gap. In his recent column Gender pay gap myths and 2008, Finley writes:

"A headline by Reuters on Nov. 7 was startling and certainly newsworthy: 'Female U.S. corporate directors out-earn men: study.' Yet, one full week later there was no newspaper coverage of this politically incorrect report, though the study was based on 25,000 corporate directors at 3,200 companies with female directors being an 8-to-1 minority.

"The Reuters report stands in stark contrast to the politically correct — BUT EMPIRICALLY INCORRECT — Associated Press story that blanketed the nation on April 23, 2007. The AP story was based on the advocacy press release of the AMERICAN ASSOCIATION OF UNIVERSITY WOMEN (AAUW) that claimed after one year out of college women earned 20 percent less than men and that the gap widened 10 years later to 31 percent. The AP did not tell the nation that STATISTICAL ANALYSIS ACCOMPANYING THE PRESS RELEASE reduced the two purported gaps to 5 percent and 12 percent respectively .

"The comparison of the Reuters and AP stories leads us to four important questions. First, can we have full confidence in Associated Press stories? The answer clearly is NO. Second, is there really a gender pay gap?

"This answer here also appears to be not based on research published in America's most prestigious peer-reviewed Economics journal. Economist June O'Neill, the former director of the Congressional Budget Office, wrote an article titled 'The gender gap in wages, circa 2000' in the May 2003 issue of the American Economic Review. By factoring in some of the many work-related differences between men and women such as hours worked per week, danger and travel requirements of the job, years of education, years in the field, and many other characteristics, she found the purported pay gap virtually VANISHED.

"Further, a recent New York Times story titled 'For young earners in big city, a gap in women's favor' portends a pay gap favoring women immediately following educational completion."

Finley's comments about the U.S. corporate directors pay study are particularly dead-on. There has been very little coverage of this study's findings. The media loves the gender pay gap issue, but I was able to find coverage of the study in a few newspapers and other outlets, but not much.

The Reuters piece on the study appears below.


Debunking you is so easy it's almost boring. Analysis by the real experts don't support what you desire to be the case. But you will continue with your imagined victimhood.

Anonymous said...

Jason, I hope you weren't expecting me to check ny of those links(I didn't). I have sussed you out, a loooong time ago. If others on this site want to allow you to derail our discussion, sure go ahead. I, however, will not pay you an ounce of attention. You.....are.......an......irrelevant.......gnat!

Anonymous said...

JaliliMaster,

If I am so irrelevant, why are you mentioning me on other blogs?

Anonymous said...

"Jason said...
JaliliMaster,

If I am so irrelevant, why are you mentioning me on other blogs?"

Mugu, so you have been chasing me around. Just shows how truly sad you are. Seriously, HOW MANY black female interracial blogs do you visit? Your incredible and unending interest in the subject of black women in interracial relationships is quite bizzare, and is becoming quite disturbing!!!

And to answer your question, I was just warning that particular blogger of certain anonymous posters(who tend to be black males) who go round on such sites to derail whatever is being spoken about(which you know you do). I don't think that qualifies as other blogs. It...was...just....one. Too bad you have nothing better to do with your life though. You are a walking stereotype. Figure it out!!!

And no, you're still not going to get me to reply to any of your nonsense posts and statistics. Born Loser!!!

Anonymous said...

Your problem is that you can't handle the truth. I have proven that your assertion of black women being more oppressed than black men wrong. Here is more:

http://abs.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/51/4/551

American Behavioral Scientist, Vol. 51, No. 4, 551-578 (2007)
DOI: 10.1177/0002764207307742
© 2007 SAGE Publications

"Assume the Position . . . You Fit the Description"

Psychosocial Experiences and Racial Battle Fatigue Among African American Male College Students

William A. Smith

University of Utah

Walter R. Allen

University of California, Los Angeles

Lynette L. Danley

University of Utah

The present study examines the experiences of 36 Black male students, in focus group interviews, enrolled at Harvard University; Michigan State University; University of California, Berkeley; University of Illinois; and the University of Michigan. Two themes emerged: (a) anti-Black male stereotyping and marginality (or Black misandry), which caused (b) extreme hypersurveillance and control. Respondents experienced racial microaggressions in three domains: (a) campus—academic, (b) campus—social, and (c) campus—public spaces. Black males are stereotyped and placed under increased surveillance by community and local policing tactics on and off campus. Across these domains, Black males were defined as being "out of place" and "fitting the description" of illegitimate nonmembers of the campus community. Students reported psychological stress responses symptomatic of racial battle fatigue (e.g., frustration, shock, anger, disappointment, resentment, anxiety, helplessness, hopelessness, and fear). There was unanimous agreement in the subjective reports that the college environment was more hostile toward African American males than OTHER GROUPS.

Anonymous said...

Apparently we as a people will never stop fighting about which gender has it harder than the other. Really, this is just a damn mess. Both sides have it worst, it's just not the exact same thing here. We're all just mixed up in this "grass is greener on the other side" thinking.

Shouldn't the comments on here be disabled anyways? It's really getting out of hand

Anonymous said...

This was an interesting topic on Wesley Snipes, what I think that happend to him is what has happend to MANY black women out there. He was hurt in past relationships with black women and that can take a toll on who you deceide to date next especially when it starts off wonderful and it really does. You spend time together, make passionate love to each other and have great converstations about anything and everything. But then 6 months down the line something changes. In my personal experience it was my ex-girlfriend's friends. I am sure we all have friends that have relationship problems and they in turn want to talk about it and other friends complain about their man too. Then they come to you (the black woman happy in a relationship) and ask about YOUR man, how do you do it? How did you meet/find him through all the whipper-snappers out there?
So she opens up and tells all the happiness in her relationship and thats when her so called friends invite her out to the club. There's nothing wrong with going out with friends and enjoying yourselves but you have to remember when you are happy within our black community there are what they call "player haters" which means if a black woman/man is happy and doing the right thing in his/her life there will be other fellow blacks that will try to tear them down.
Hence the term "misery loves company".... That's what happend to me, she would go out more and more leaving me at home to watch her son (my stepson) while she however innocently at first went out with her friends to have a nice time. But after some drinks and egging on from her friends she deceided that she wanted out of our relationship.... That was 3 years ago, since then she moved to Florida and when she got there she saw the kind of black men down there, most of them date white women that work two jobs to support them. They are so spoiled she told me in a phonecall once. And she said as well as told mutual friends that she wants me back, I was the best she ever had, etc etc... But it's too late. I have moved on. The woman I am dating now is black/latina very attractive and smart also a single mother her son loves me very much... But she like I was hurt by her son's father so we are going very careful and very slowly at becomming a couple. I will say one more thing, back in 2000 I dated an Irish woman and the only reason why we seperated was that she went to live and take care of her mother in the UK. When looking back on ALL my relationships she was my match... It does bother me that who I saw as my "match" is a woman who is not african american. Wish me luck as I wish all you ladies on here the same.

Anonymous said...

All I can say is, I as a black male of 39 years old want all of the black women on here reading the posts that are friends with and care about other black women to, please encourage black women to date outside of their race.

I am saying this for a specific reason which is, we as black people tend to treat, get along and love people more and better who are not black.

Look at all the successful relationships between blacks and non-black people today. And then look at relationships between black people. As yourself which relationship has a better chance of succeeding........

Yeah, I thought so.......

Have a great day ladies :)

Anonymous said...

Statistically, interracial marriages have a moderately higher rate of divorce.

Anonymous said...

And the bashing and hatred of BW by loser BM and their idiot enablers continues I see.........

I wish BM would just disappear.

Anonymous said...

Jason the idiot is still here harrassing sistas I see.

Of course some moron had to chime in about his "Black/Latina" gf. Yeah I bet she is like 1% Black.

I wish BM would just disappear.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous the dummy still spouting stupidity I see. Why don't YOU disappear.

Anonymous said...

After years of resenting BM, I've come to the peaceful conclusion that they are doing the best they can given the circumstances of their upbringing and status in society.

Unfortunately, that 'best' is not good enough for me. I will not go down with the sinking ship formerly known as the 'black community'. I am happily married to a wonderful non-BM and I'd suggest that any BW with options and interest date out for the best chance at a man who remembers what manhood is supposed to be.

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