Thursday, September 27, 2007

STOP SAYING THAT!

Many of the responses to my last blog expressing my disappointment in some of the anti-black commentary I've encountered from BW at IR blogs raised another concern that is shared by a number of sisters in this community: the use of language, and whether what we choose to talk about, and how we choose to talk about it, reflects our sense of empowerment and ability to achieve our goals of a happy and healthy life.

In particular, some sisters have argued vehemently against use of the term "Damaged Beyond Repair Black Man," claiming that it amounts to little more than derogatory labelling that reflects an unhealthy continuing obsession with the very men that the women who frequent the blogs claim to be disinterested in. Why not focus instead on the kind of men we want, rather than the kind we don't want?

Halima, Evia, and many others defend the use of DBRBM with equal vigor, asserting that the word is simply a tool that serves as a means of warning sisters of a potential danger to their safety and sanity so that can protect themselves against that danger, and actually find the kind of relationship they want and deserve: i.e., forewarned is forearmed.

I tend to agree more with the latter position; but what I find more interesting is why certain words seem to generate so much more concern than others. For instance, in Halima's latest post she provides a brief "something new lexicon," which includes, among other concepts, both "DBR" and "Mammy ideology," referring to the mentality which animates black female defenders of DBRBM. Strangely enough, I've noticed that people rarely if ever complain about the use of the term "mammy," though it certainly has connotations that are arguably more "derogatory" and historically freighted for BW than "damaged beyond repair" is for BM. Why then is the response to this term so much more muted?

Additionally, I find it puzzling that because a BW is interested in dating IR, the assumption is that she has no further reason to ever think about BM. First of all, many BW who want to date IR are simply attracted to a variety of men--INCLUDING BM. Secondly, no matter who a BW dates, she is still black, and likely has a black father, black brothers, uncles, cousins, friends, and acquaintances; she will likely live in a community with a large population of BM that she will have to relate and navigate, even if she preferred not to. She will still turn on her radio or TV, open a book or a magazine, and encounter images of BW created by BM--images whose repurcussions she will have to cope with. It's not as if BM simply disappear from the landscape of the universe of a BW when she dates IR.

Some may argue that even if a BW in an IRR may still have a perfectly legitimate interest in BM, an IR dating site is not the place for her to discuss that interest. In terms of my blog, I can only point out that while IRRs are a strong focus here, it is not the ONLY focus--I stated right from the outset that my purpose was to create a "black girl's haven," where BW and all those who love and support us could come to talk and exchange information and ideas relevant to all facets of our lives. In terms of the IR blogs generally, the reality is that the response of BM specifically, and the bc more generally, to BW in IRRs is a relevant experience for many women who date and marry IR. To tell such women to focus on finding the man they want, without focusing at all on the context in which that relationship will evolve, isn't entirely fair. It may not seem like it, but finding men is the easy part. Creating a healthy relationship that will work over the long haul, in an often hostile world, is the real challenge--and it is that challenge that I believe really motivates most of the women who seek out these blogs to seek them out.

In any case, I'm always uncomfortable with the idea of telling others what not to talk about. Even when people say things I hate, I prefer to confront and respond to them (or ignore them, as the case may be) rather than argue that certain discussions shouldn't happen at all. As much as I may not have liked to see someone claiming to be a BW at the BW's IR Circle arguing that BW love thugs, I don't kid myself that if I didn't see that statement being made there, it would mean that sort of mentality doesn't exist. Sometimes an issue is raised as much as it is BECAUSE it has been so powerfully suppressed--thus, it shouldn't surprise us that a group of BW who gather to support each other in getting free of one taboo can't help but struggle to get free of another as well--the taboo against criticizing BM within the community. If we stop saying it here, will it go away? Should it?

70 comments:

carey said...

This is a misconception that is all too prevalent. It seems to me when black women date IR they dont exclude black men necesarily while when black men date IR they exclude black women. This is just my perception that I have notice.

Anonymous said...

...sometimes we have to accept the truth for what it is...we have been protecting these men for so long...it may be hard to "chastise" our own. however it need to be said....

CW myspace.com/thecwexperience

Trvlrgrl said...

aimee said
Strangely enough, I've noticed that people rarely if ever complain about the use of the term "mammy," though it certainly has connotations that are arguably more "derogatory" and historically freighted for BW than "damaged beyond repair" is for BM. Why then is the response to this term so much more muted?


I don't like the term mammy either but I think the big difference for me is that "damaged beyond repair" implies that a person is so effed up as to be beyond recovery. On the other hand, many folks on these blogs are actively trying to get women to stop behaving like "mammys".

Also, some times "DBR" is used to refer to non-black men, but not typically. I think the suggestion that hoards of black men are "beyond repair" is extremely problematic and harmful. Not to be too dramatic, but this is precisely the kind of racist hate-mongering that often accompanies massive discrimination and incidents of genocide. Once you take a group outside of the human family and label them as "beyond repair", folks can justify any kind of horrendous treatment of them.

I am not saying there's a straight line from using that term on these IR blogs and massive discrimination or violence...I am saying that when you bring that language into the public sphere (particularly on the internet) you may be feeding hateful beliefs.

It would not surprise me if the term "damaged beyond repair black men" starts popping up in other e forums and don't you think the first thing folks will say is ..."hey this is coming from black women not us...even they think these men are "beyond repair".

But more importantly, if folks on these IR blogs are truly, truly about encouraging black women to consider a variety of men as partners, angry, derogatory terms only encourage debate, argument, and discussion about those terms, what they mean, who they apply to, who's not included...yada yada yada.

Black women who support and love black folks but want to expand their dating options will be turned off and frankly, I think many non-black men may wonder whether they want to get involved with a bunch of women who seem so angry.

Trvlrgrl said...

One more thing...this is not about censorship or political correctness...it's about "what is the purpose of these blogs?". If it's about encouraging black women to open up their dating options, then how can that be acheived? Does using terms like "DBR" really get us to the point of embracing other options in a loving and positive way or is the message really "hey a whole lot of brothers are effed up so you better change your tune if you want to procreate and survive"...that's just not an inspiring mesasge to me...but maybe it is for others.

However, I'm more than willing to sit down and shut up on this, and certainly folks can say whatever they want...

carey said...

I have always equated DBR with every type of men but that universal tone may get overshawdowed by content of the aricle, i suppose.

Aimee said...

Trvlrgrl said...

I don't like the term mammy either but I think the big difference for me is that "damaged beyond repair" implies that a person is so effed up as to be beyond recovery. On the other hand, many folks on these blogs are actively trying to get women to stop behaving like "mammys".

I don't think there's anything in the term "mammy" that suggests reparability; the term just doesn't explicitly state the unliklihood of recovery as DBR does. And generally, the advice given to sisters about mammies is the same as that given for DBRBM: stay away.

Also, some times "DBR" is used to refer to non-black men, but not typically. I think the suggestion that hoards of black men are "beyond repair" is extremely problematic and harmful.

I think this is where the significance of language, and meaning we derive from it, becomes important. Obviously, words have objective meanings, and we can't put a personal spin on that so that we can use them with impunity to avoid their negative implications.

However, even an objective meaning changes depending on the context of a word's use--and when a woman is told that certain qualities denote a man that is "beyond repair," the message that I glen from that is "he is beyond repair by YOU." Maybe with intense therapy, a radical reconfiguration of our public policy, and the development of extraordinary internal will, such a person has the capacity to change for the better. I think the point of using the term DBRBM is to make it clear to more BW that whether or not such a man is in any way, shape or form reparable should be irrelevant to the individual woman who is confronted with his presence--he isn't reparable by HER, nor is it her job to even try to fix him--so for her purposes, he is damaged beyond repair.

Not to be too dramatic, but this is precisely the kind of racist hate-mongering that often accompanies massive discrimination and incidents of genocide. Once you take a group outside of the human family and label them as "beyond repair", folks can justify any kind of horrendous treatment of them...when you bring that language into the public sphere (particularly on the internet) you may be feeding hateful beliefs . . .It would not surprise me if the term "damaged beyond repair black men" starts popping up in other e forums and don't you think the first thing folks will say is ..."hey this is coming from black women not us...even they think these men are "beyond repair".

That may well be a possibility, and I think it would be unfortunate if that happened. But it is equally unfortunate that BW are still being sent the message that they should avoid criticism of BM in order to avoid giving the "enemy" ammunition. How many sisters who are getting beaten won't call the police? How many sisters who aren't getting child support won't go to court to enforce the order? How many sisters who've been raped won't press charges? How much do we swallow and hide to "keep a brother out of the system," or to avoid feeding stereotypes? While people can use the truth for evil purposes, that doesn't make the truth itself any less good or any less important to tell.

But more importantly, if folks on these IR blogs are truly, truly about encouraging black women to consider a variety of men as partners, angry, derogatory terms only encourage debate, argument, and discussion about those terms, what they mean, who they apply to, who's not included...yada yada yada.

Frankly, I think the subject itself attracts that kind of debate--many of the trolls who come to these sites complain about the term "DBRBM," but they rarely limit their complaints to that term alone, and since I have yet to see a "DBRBM.com," it isn't the term that is attracting them

Black women who support and love black folks but want to expand their dating options will be turned off and frankly, I think many non-black men may wonder whether they want to get involved with a bunch of women who seem so angry.

I think you're right. But many BW ARE angry. I want to see them BE less angry, not just to SEEM less angry. And anger is a product of voicelessness and powerlessnes. Anger comes from not only being beaten, but being told that to fight back would be "disloyal." Anger comes from being told that to explicitly identify the harm being done to black people generally and BW and children specifically by a specific population of BM will feed racism. Peace comes from identifying the threats to yourself, empowering yourself against them, and then claiming the life that you want and deserve. I don't think these processes can be broken apart. But I think it may be a good idea for someone to create a blog where certain terms and subjects are verboten, or that are restricted to certain subjects, because that might fill a need that is apparently now unmet.

Anonymous said...

"...sometimes we have to accept the truth for what it is...we have been protecting these men for so long...it may be hard to "chastise" our own. however it need to be said...."

i agree completely. it is very easy to make excuses and place blame everywhere except where it belongs...

Let Love Rule said...

Trvlrgrl said...
I think the suggestion that hoards of black men are "beyond repair" is extremely problematic and harmful. Not to be too dramatic, but this is precisely the kind of racist hate-mongering that often accompanies massive discrimination and incidents of genocide. ... when you bring that language into the public sphere (particularly on the internet) you may be feeding hateful beliefs.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

NO one is saying there are hoards of men, but as the experience of the women on these blogs shows there are too many. And they should be avoided.

I will quote myself from Halima's blog...The term DBR IS DERISIVE as in scornful because we are describing men who should be scorned and avoided. The men and their actions are EVIL and harmful to bw. If a disturbed person runs naked down the street (in this society) we call them SICK. If a person commits a crime, we call them a criminal. If a man through his actions is intent on abusing you and destroying your life (and his own) we call them DAMAGED beyond repair.

You see we have a right to name our experience in our own way, regardless of who might be offended.

As for racism, believe me the racist already have plenty of terms for all of us. We're not feeding anything by warning other women what to stay away from.

So my question is do YOU believe that there are some men who are dangerous and should be avoided? And if so why would you want to call them anything else but what they are?

From my perspective it seems like if we don't call it what it is we are participating in a kind of protectionist cover-up which will in the end harm women.

Pamela said...

I think it needs to be made clear why the term DBR is used in the first place. BW are told that we are to support bm no matter what. In many instances we are told that we are the ones that can 'help them become better men'. Basically the message is that we are the muchness of the allness that can cause these men to be transformed into these marvelous wonderful men. NOTHING COULD BE FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH.

I think the truth that is being communicated (or should be) is that no one has enough power to change another person. This is the dangerous myth that needs to be screamed against at all costs. Each person has to decide how they are going to live. bw are told time and time again that we must be willing to make the man, support the man, etc. We are not built to repair anyone. Those that are having major problems (DBR) cannot be fixed by any human being. They ON THEIR OWN must decide to change. In that context we do not need to waste our time trying. It NEVER works, especially in a romantic relationship setting. A romance is not therapy. Romance is to be mutually enjoyed by both parties. A DBR person needs therapy or a swift kick in the pants in order to see the need to change, NOT a romantic relationship.

Anonymous said...

Having lived in California, I would say black men who date ir COMPLETELY exclude black women.

phx said...

I think both Trvlrgrl and Aimee are making good points, I think it's going to take some time for people to figure out where the best argument is. The point is however that your dialogue IS helping move the conversation further, and hopefully a lot of people's behaviors are going to change (for the better) as a result.
I just really believe that the discussion by (mostly) BW that I've been following for many weeks now in these blogs is very important to all of us, white, black, male, female, really everyone.

Halima said...

Pamela
I think it needs to be made clear why the term DBR is used in the first place. BW are told that we are to support bm no matter what. In many instances we are told that we are the ones that can 'help them become better men'.


Pamela, this comment is so key like you would never believe and seems to have been overlooked on my blog!

it is so necessary at this point to have a 'word-tool' that will counter the indoctrination of 'dont give up on a brotha' which is killing bw in their dozens! Bw have internalised this doctrine, as a result they hang on in there when anyone in their right minds would have made for the hills long ago.

the term DBR was coined to free bw from the idea that they had to continue working with a brotha idefinitely and to bring home to them the fact that some men are not going to be 'reconstructable'.

People who hate the term should ask themselves if they really think bw are of enough value to be freed from the dangerous often lethal doctrine of 'dont give up on a brotha'.

JJ said...

trvlrgrl

U definitely have it right. And it never ceases to amaze how diseent on many of these blogs is construed as some how "coddling" or "protecting" black men.

But it is equally unfortunate that BW are still being sent the message that they should avoid criticism of BM in order to avoid giving the "enemy" ammunition.

NOTHING in what trvlrgrl said suggests that we should not criticize black men.

But the method one uses to criticize ANYONE is important.

Also, some times "DBR" is used to refer to non-black men, but not typically. I think the suggestion that hoards of black men are "beyond repair" is extremely problematic and harmful. Not to be too dramatic, but this is precisely the kind of racist hate-mongering that often accompanies massive discrimination and incidents of genocide.

The word was coined in reference black men. But started to apply to other men when it became obvious many women were thinking DBR = Black.

And yes on the IR blogs the perjoratives "most" and "many" are often used to describe the many DBR Black men out htere as if that is the bulk of the man supply.

Black women who support and love black folks but want to expand their dating options will be turned off and frankly, I think many non-black men may wonder whether they want to get involved with a bunch of women who seem so angry.

Constant black male bashing is the same as constant black female bashing. As I've said to many men, I'll say here:

You don't have to justify your IR inclinations by saying what's os horrible about black men (or black women when I'm talking to guys).

Do you as they say. But the constant negativity ultimately makes you look bad.

Aimee said...

JJ said...

NOTHING in what trvlrgrl said suggests that we should not criticize black men.

But the method one uses to criticize ANYONE is important.


So what would an appropriate method of criticism be? To use trvlrgrl's suggestion that we simply refer to such men as "not marriageable" or "not dateable" as if (1) they would find that any less derisive, and (2) the only problem such men present is their inadequacy as mates? I very much find SOMETHING in the suggestion that genocide and hate speech could be the potential result of referring to predatory black men as DBR to be suggestive that black men should not be criticized, especially since no alternative, but equally apt, criticism is offered. Is it just the term that is a problem, or the very recognition that such men exist?

Constant black male bashing is the same as constant black female bashing. As I've said to many men, I'll say here:

You don't have to justify your IR inclinations by saying what's os horrible about black men (or black women when I'm talking to guys).

Do you as they say. But the constant negativity ultimately makes you look bad.


Your right: I don't have to justify my IR inclinations. But if I see a consistent threat to people I care about, then I will consistently point it out; I was doing that before I was married, regardless of who I was dating, and I'll be doing it until the day I die--I don't allow what strangers think to control me, and I sure don't worry about justifying myself to them.

In terms of "looking bad"--to who? Obviously, I need to make some things clear here: nothing that happens on this blog or anyplace in the world could EVER make me forget who I am. The beautiful black family that nurtured me, loved me, and told me I could do anything made damn sure of that before I could even walk. So trust--unless you are part of that family or sleep next to me in bed every night, how I look to you is not my concern. I approach others with respect and honesty, but if we have to agree to disagree, I expect you to be adult enough to handle that, because that "the black folks gonna turn on you" stuff scares me exactly 0%.

JJ said...

Who said anything about black folks turning on you?

And once again the comment was in the method of criticim not criticism itself.

But one can read into a situation what one likes.

To each his own.

JJ said...

By your response it seems you think my "You" was directed at you. It wasn't. It was a general you not a personal one.

Anonymous said...

dditionally, I find it puzzling that because a BW is interested in dating IR, the assumption is that she has no further reason to ever think about BM. First of all, many BW who want to date IR are simply attracted to a variety of men--INCLUDING BM. Secondly, no matter who a BW dates, she is still black, and likely has a black father, black brothers, uncles, cousins, friends, and acquaintances; she will likely live in a community with a large population of BM that she will have to relate and navigate, even if she preferred not to. She will still turn on her radio or TV, open a book or a magazine, and encounter images of BW created by BM--images whose repurcussions she will have to cope with. It's not as if BM simply disappear from the landscape of the universe of a BW when she dates IR.


The thing about this whole ir dating thing is that I thought that "race" was suppose to be inconsequential to love. Yet, on many of these ir blogs that is NOT the case. Race is EVERYTHING. Instead of men or women being looked at as a man or a woman, certain racial groups of men or women are HELD up for SPECIAL scorn and hatred(at least that is what comes across to me). All of this dbr bm or mammy bw are DEHUMANZING references that go along with the way this SOCIETY dehumanizes black people. I am afraid that many of these blogs maybe started with good intentions simply follow the SAME racial pattern that has ALREADY been set. Black people are presented as a dysfunctional, problematic, backwards group of people, and the "few" of us who aren't would be better served by dating "better" people...ie white people.

I mean some of the "ideas" presented on these blogs are down right scary that people BELIEVE this stuff. I mean you all are creating a WHOLE mythology about how bw are treated in the black community to JUSTIFY dating ir. It is NOT necessary.
I mean I have read that black people WANT bw to date dangerous, abusive, criminal, and chronically unemployed black man rather than date a non bm. What a crock of shyt. You all take the very real Problems and family conflicts that a woman could face when deciding to date non black and make black people appear to be Inhumane, because it would be INHUMANE to suggest to a woman that she date criminals and thugs, and etc. To me such talk is consisttent with the LIES that are spread about black people in general. There is NO question that there is sexism within the black community, that bw's issues are placed on the back burner, that bw ARE sometimes USED sexually by bm, but that AIN'T nowhere NEAR the WHOLE story. It is not even MOST of the story. What many of those bloggers are guilty of is NOT Seeing black people/black men and black women for who we are, but simply a collecction of negative memories, or negative actions that justify them dating non black people. And it seems to me that ALL of this is DONE IN an effort to convice black people that finding love with one another is damn near impossible and somehow will be "Easier, better" with non black people.
To simply say to bw, hey there is a numerical shortage of bm so that means blah, blah, blah isn't enough for these bloggers. To suggest to bw that if they were afraid or worried about dating ir and what it was like that they would still be who they are and blab, blah, blah isn't enough for these bloggers. To tell bw hey this is where nonbm who are interested in dating bw are located isn't enough for these bloggers, to discuss the issues that individual woman have had with INDIVIDUAL men isn't enough for these bloggers. No, what has to happen is that black men have to be portrayed as mind contollers/ COMPLETE OPPRessors who are preventing bw from dating ir, the majority of black women have to be portrayed as little dumb puppies/mammies that can't stop sniffing and running behind black men, and the black community has to be portrayed as a community in which NO LOVE OR CONCERN OR CARING is shown to black women, but it seems to me that these blogs go against the VERY thing that they proport that race shouldn't be a factor in dating, if that is the case why is it IMPORTANT TO HIGHLIGHT THat individual Black men have done this or that? Why isn't the message ladies this is the type of behavior we want to avoid. Instead of the focus being on BEHAVIOR the MAN's RACE becomes what CONNECTS his behavior to OTHER men of the same race.
To me that suggests a sickness of mind that I don't want to know about.

Anonymous said...

That may well be a possibility, and I think it would be unfortunate if that happened. But it is equally unfortunate that BW are still being sent the message that they should avoid criticism of BM in order to avoid giving the "enemy" ammunition. How many sisters who are getting beaten won't call the police? How many sisters who aren't getting child support won't go to court to enforce the order? How many sisters who've been raped won't press charges? How much do we swallow and hide to "keep a brother out of the system," or to avoid feeding stereotypes? While people can use the truth for evil purposes, that doesn't make the truth itself any less good or any less important to tell.

To me you are missing her GREAT points completely. She isn't suggesting that bw NOT criticize teh INDIVIDUAL actions of bm, but why in doing that MUST THE CRITICISM DEHUMANIZE Bm as a group in the SAME way racist thought and rhetoric dehumanizes black people in general in this COUNTRY. Is the ONLY way an invidividual bw can say an individual bm hurt her is to DEHUMANIZE bm as a group? To connect that man's abuse of her personhood TO his BEING A BM? To me that is the question she is asking. I think TrVlgrl raised some EXCELLENT points about the problmatic why these blogs are proceeding and the message they are sending which is CONSISTENT with the racist American message that black people are dysfucntional, sick, inferior, BEYOND repair.

Aimee said...

JJ said...

By your response it seems you think my "You" was directed at you. It wasn't. It was a general you not a personal one.

Then my response was directed to a general "you," not a personal one.

Aimee said...

Anonymous said...

To me you are missing her GREAT points completely. She isn't suggesting that bw NOT criticize teh INDIVIDUAL actions of bm, but why in doing that MUST THE CRITICISM DEHUMANIZE Bm as a group in the SAME way racist thought and rhetoric dehumanizes black people in general in this COUNTRY. Is the ONLY way an invidividual bw can say an individual bm hurt her is to DEHUMANIZE bm as a group? To connect that man's abuse of her personhood TO his BEING A BM? To me that is the question she is asking. I think TrVlgrl raised some EXCELLENT points about the problmatic why these blogs are proceeding and the message they are sending which is CONSISTENT with the racist American message that black people are dysfucntional, sick, inferior, BEYOND repair.

I don't think I'm missing her point; I think I'm disagreeing with it. First of all, I reject the contention that DBRBM=BM or black people, and thus is consistent with a racist message about black people as a whole.

Second, I think that there is an inherent dishonesty in a stance that suggests that when you see a pattern of behavior, you only address its individual manifestations, in order to avoid stereotyping--therefore, you can criticize Bishop Weeks for stomping Juanita Bynum, but you can't point out that BW as a group are more likely to be physically abused than other women--because we must restrict our criticism to the individual.

Is is possible to look critically at broader manifestations of destructive behaviors within our community without having a racist motive for doing so? If Don Imus tries to rationalize his insulting a group of BW by referring to BM who insult BW, does that mean BW must not challenge BM who insult BW? Your reasoning suggests that if someone uses a fact dishonestly, the fact itself ceases to have value, and must itself be false--white conservatives criticize rap for degrading BW, therefore, rap must not degrade BW. I don't buy that.

Anonymous said...

I don't think I'm missing her point; I think I'm disagreeing with it. First of all, I reject the contention that DBRBM=BM or black people, and thus is consistent with a racist message about black people as a whole.

The ONLY/MOST dominate message about black people on these blogs is how damaged beyond repair we are, how bw are mammies, how the black community is dysfunctional. If references to dbr bm weren't THE NORM When referring to bm and mammy wasn't the NORM when referring to bw, you might have a point, but as it stands, on these blogs DYSFUNCTION= black people. Being damaged beyond repair=bm being weak minded and kissing bm's butts=bw. Unless you want to show an Equal number of references to black people that DON'T convey those ideas.

Second, I think that there is an inherent dishonesty in a stance that suggests that when you see a pattern of behavior,

What pattern of behavior that some men are abusive TOWARDS women, that this WHOLE Society and the men in it tend to be sexist towards women, that individual men because of that sexism are out to hurt women. That pattern?

you only address its individual manifestations, in order to avoid stereotyping--therefore, you can criticize Bishop Weeks for stomping Juanita Bynum, but you can't point out that BW as a group are more likely to be physically abused than other women--because we must restrict our criticism to the individual.

There is NOTHING wrong with the truth. In pointing out that bw are more likely to be physically abused do we then have to attack bm in GENERAL. Do we then have to make it like MOST black women are abused, that black people don't CARE at ALL About abused women, that BLACK people "want" black women to be abused? To me that is what is DONE To black people concering ir relationships, we are as a group ATTACKED with these HORRIBLE labels that are presented to apply to the MAJORITY of us all in an effor to do what exactly "uplift white folks"?

Is is possible to look critically at broader manifestations of destructive behaviors within our community without having a racist motive for doing so?

Not in the way it is DONE on these blogs. NO. The critical look is doen in the SAME way that white folks "Critically look" at black people. A whole bunch of lies and dehumanization. It seems to me that you are confusing criticism with RACIAL stereotyping. For any bw or bm to say that based on their personal dating relationships that means that bm or bw as a GROUP are this that and the third isn't dealing with broad manifestations of problems, but is just plain ole stereotyping their pesonal experiences to MILLIONS of men or women on the basis that they share the same race as the people they dealt with.

If Don Imus tries to rationalize his insulting a group of BW by referring to BM who insult BW, does that mean BW must not challenge BM who insult BW? Your reasoning suggests that if someone uses a fact dishonestly, the fact itself ceases to have value, and must itself be false--white conservatives criticize rap for degrading BW, therefore, rap must not degrade BW. I don't buy that.

The are NO facts in these discussions only racial stereotypes that putdown bm and bw BECAUSE we are black. The ONLY way you get to dbr bm is if you have certain racist ideas about bm as a group. If you don't have those, simply telling women to avoid abusive men is ENOUGH, but when you don't see bm as HUMAN but instead as this mass group of dysfunctional, dangerous, evil, "THINGS" then labelling them as dbr becomes the ONLY thing one can say about them.

Aimee said...

Anonymous said...

There is NOTHING wrong with the truth. In pointing out that bw are more likely to be physically abused do we then have to attack bm in GENERAL. Do we then have to make it like MOST black women are abused, that black people don't CARE at ALL About abused women, that BLACK people "want" black women to be abused? To me that is what is DONE To black people concering ir relationships, we are as a group ATTACKED with these HORRIBLE labels that are presented to apply to the MAJORITY of us all in an effor to do what exactly "uplift white folks"?

I think this is the point where you and I will have to agree to disagree. I have not and do not attack BM in general. I have never suggested that most BW are abused, that black people want BW to be abused, and I'm not sure in what way I have ever "uplifted" white folks.

It seems that you have been hurt by things that you have read here and elsewhere, and you're ability to parse the specific claims and their specific meanings has thus deteriorated into semi-hysterical claims about how "all" black people are being portrayed. Even when I complained about racist comments I had seen on IR blogs, I didn't pretend that they made up all, or even most of the discourse that you generally find; it's easy enough to call all out something wrong when you see it, and keep it moving--unless you just have a problem with the enterprise in and of itself. I guess then the question becomes, why keep tormenting yourself? You obviously find the concept of BW wanting to pursue IRRs painful and upsetting, and have decided it is because we all hate you. If that is so, we're easy enough to avoid.

Halima said...

Second, I think that there is an inherent dishonesty in a stance that suggests that when you see a pattern of behavior, you only address its individual manifestations, in order to avoid stereotyping--therefore, you can criticize Bishop Weeks for stomping Juanita Bynum, but you can't point out that BW as a group are more likely to be physically abused than other women--because we must restrict our criticism to the individual.

Aimee more than ever b/4 bw need to ignore the naysayers and cowards and raise their voices to criticise the cultures and traditions that have continued to subjugate bw even those that are yet emerging.

we are intelligent women and we know the forestalling game all too well. we know there are folks who out of a lack of regard would rather bw sit like the proverbial frog in heating water till it boils! they are trying to get us to put off the rescue!

they want to gag bw up till the negative stats are astronomical and even after that, will still insist that bw qualify each and every black man before they admit there is a problem! isnt this how we got to 70% singleness, indeed if we let them determine when we can rightly speak out about any problem, it will be too late to rescue bw!

we cannot afford to be fooled again!

Daphne said...

The ONLY way you get to dbr bm is if you have certain racist ideas about bm as a group.

Huh? I'm confused by this. It was my understanding that DBR was coined as a phrase based on legitimate experiences from black women. Experiences that have not had a descriptor before. So people are racist for putting a name to a perceived set of behaviors based on experiences?

Do we then have to make it like MOST black women are abused, that black people don't CARE at ALL About abused women, that BLACK people "want" black women to be abused?

The thing is - there seems to be little evidence to indicate that the "black community," aggregately speaking, does care about abused women (outside of white perpetuators), identifying the destructive forces within said "community," and speaking out about those destructive forces. The only times when the "black community" wants to rally is when the issue is black & white (literally speaking). There is nothing inherently wrong with speaking out against racial & social injustice, but it does seem as though the "black community" is so concerned about telling someone how to clean up their house when the BC house is in serious disrepair. Frankly, I have some issues with what I view as a mythological "black community," and the presumed cohesiveness of it. However, that's a whole other talk show, as they say.

Anonymous said...

I think this is the point where you and I will have to agree to disagree. I have not and do not attack BM in general.
You may not have but CLEARLY some of the blogs this blog is linked to HAS and DOES portray bm as abusers/users of bw, and bw as willing mammies. That is undeniable.

I have never suggested that most BW are abused, that black people want BW to be abused, and I'm not sure in what way I have ever "uplifted" white folks.

That wasn't directly addressed to you but just the general tone of these "something new blogs". Clearly, the majority of black people are NOT presented as sane, kind, loving, and caring indivdiuals, because of what is WRITTEN about us on many of these blogs.

It seems that you have been hurt by things that you have read here and elsewhere,

Not a single thing has "hurt" me. Saddened me yes. I feel Sad for many of the women on these blogs. THere pain is very evident.

and you're ability to parse the specific claims and their specific meanings has thus deteriorated into semi-hysterical claims about how "all" black people are being portrayed.

The semantical games are meaningless to me. To suggest that one can read post after post in which bm/bw and the black community are portrayed as WANTING bw to be with abusive men, as bm mind controlling bw and keeping them from dating non bm. To bw being this mindless mammies who sniff up behind black men no matter what, and NOT come to the conclusion that black people are once again being stereotyped on the basis of our race, imo is NOT to be dealing with reality.


Even when I complained about racist comments I had seen on IR blogs, I didn't pretend that they made up all, or even most of the discourse that you generally find;

I don't know about ALL ir blogs, but the blogs you are LINKED to that is the MAJORITY of the discourse you generally find. I bet you dbr bm are referenced at a rate of 3 to 1 to the times you read about non bm. I bet references to bw being mammies is done twice as much as references that uplift bw. I bet that the black community is written about NEGATIVE 10 times more than positively. I mean are you reading those blogs you are linked to?
it's easy enough to call all out something wrong when you see it, and keep it moving--unless you just have a problem with the enterprise in and of itself. I guess then the question becomes, why keep tormenting yourself? You obviously find the concept of BW wanting to pursue IRRs painful and upsetting, and have decided it is because we all hate you. If that is so, we're easy enough to avoid.

There is NOthing upsetting to me about bw being in ir. That is a cop out not to deal with the ideas I have presented. I rarely read the ir blogs, once every blue MOON, but the general thrust of them is UNDENIABLE, that black people as a group are dysfunction, that bm as a group are mind controlling bw into ONLY dating bm, that the black community WANTS bw to be involved with abusive men and losers. I should have delinated a little that from what I have read in your blog you have not personally done that as far as I have read, but clearly some of the blogs this one is LINKED to HAVE done. In fact, I was going to commend you for being the FIRST to "warn" that dating non black doesn't mean denigrating all things black.

Anonymous said...

I don't know about ALL ir blogs, but the blogs you are LINKED to that is the MAJORITY of the discourse you generally find. I bet you dbr bm are referenced at a rate of 3 to 1 to the times you read about non bm. I bet references to bw being mammies is done twice as much as references that uplift bw. I bet that the black community is written about NEGATIVE 10 times more than positively. I mean are you reading those blogs you are linked to?


Must we just say pretty things about black people? is anyone allowed to critique the black community at all?

if a blog is not about painting a pretty picture about the BC is it invalid? surely we all cant be singing BC praise at all times?

Anonymous said...

Huh? I'm confused by this.

You shouldn't be.

It was my understanding that DBR was coined as a phrase based on legitimate experiences from black women.

SO.

Experiences that have not had a descriptor before. So people are racist for putting a name to a perceived set of behaviors based on experiences?

Again, I don't see the NEED to define those experiences in terms of the RACE of the man. Bm have negative experiences with bw and some of them come away with some pretty ignorant racist IDEAS about bw based on those personal experiences. When encountered, I criticize those men for saying ignorant things about bw as a group based on their dating experiences. I can't get around how criticism of black people ALWAYS seems to CONFORM to existing racist STEREOTYPES about black people. It is not a coincidence.


The thing is - there seems to be little evidence to indicate that the "black community," aggregately speaking, does care about abused women

That is COMPLETE bs and make believe. There is NO way a sane person will believe that black people WANT Bw to be abused and don't care when black women are abused. The fact that from a statistical standpoint bw are more likely to suffer abuse DOESN'T equate to the black ommunity not carign at all. I have PROOF of marches and rallies, and discussions that black people have had about abuse of bw and how it has to stop, does that mean that more shouldn't be done, or course not, but it is a SICK and racist Idea to think that black people don't care about bw being abused.

(outside of white perpetuators), identifying the destructive forces within said "community," and speaking out about those destructive forces. The only times when the "black community" wants to rally is when the issue is black & white (literally speaking).

THat is an outright falsehood. There have been rallies and marches and meeting, and take bacck the streets campaigns and calls for more police and tougher sentencing and etc within black communities to NOT see that is to deny REALITY.


There is nothing inherently wrong with speaking out against racial & social injustice, but it does seem as though the "black community" is so concerned about telling someone how to clean up their house when the BC house is in serious disrepair. Frankly, I have some issues with what I view as a mythological "black community," and the presumed cohesiveness of it. However, that's a whole other talk show, as they say.

And there it is. YOU have a personal issue with the black people so that equates to what exactly. I wish MORE people would do some SOUL searching when they reach these ignorant and racist conclusions about black people as to JUST where those ideas REALLY came from. But alas, so many of us WANT to believe that black people ain't shyt. GO ahead.

Anonymous said...

Must we just say pretty things about black people? is anyone allowed to critique the black community at all?

if a blog is not about painting a pretty picture about the BC is it invalid? surely we all cant be singing BC praise at all times?

I just don't understand why the "black community" has to be discussed at all. Espeacially where it concerns who grown men and women are dating? What does the black community have to do with that?
As far as criticism, fair and honest criticism is NEEDED, not racial stereotypes that LIE about who bm/bw/black people are. That is just more of the same. Why is it that criicism of the bc has to conform to racist stereotypes about black people?

JJ said...

Then my response was directed to a general "you," not a personal one.

LOL. I only pointed it out 'cause you seemed a little hostile in ur response. Whetehr general or personal. LOL.

Anon you have HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD!

I've been trying to figure out why is there this need to coin a phrase for "Damaged" men when the language is full of words for "Damaged" men.

Hell misogyny is a word that adequately describes all of the BAD BEHAVIOURS these alleged DBR express. With ease. Hell there was a whole feminist movement that has language for trifling men without it being race specific.

So why DBR?

I'm glad you commented on it because on Halima's blog I pointed out that I don't believe Black Women are so STUPID or INFANTILE not to be able to know bad men when they see one.

There are ALL typpes of women who do a piss poor job of choosing men. That's just not limited to Black women.

By folks response on this blog my point has been proven that if you don't agree with the ideology then you're:

A. Protecting Black Men
B. Locked in a Mammy mindset
C. Don't care about Black Women
D. Unable to grasp the concepts being expressed (parsing facts so to speak)
E. And apparently "Hysterical" can be added to the list.

LOL. SMH.

Oh and the old standby - Well if you don't like it you can:

A. Don't read
B. Start your own blog

LOL.

But good job Anon. I applaud you!

JJ said...

Aimee more than ever b/4 bw need to ignore the naysayers and cowards and raise their voices to criticise the cultures and traditions that have continued to subjugate bw even those that are yet emerging.

we are intelligent women and we know the forestalling game all too well. we know there are folks who out of a lack of regard would rather bw sit like the proverbial frog in heating water till it boils! they are trying to get us to put off the rescue!

they want to gag bw up till the negative stats are astronomical and even after that, will still insist that bw qualify each and every black man before they admit there is a problem! isnt this how we got to 70% singleness, indeed if we let them determine when we can rightly speak out about any problem, it will be too late to rescue bw!


HUH?

In NONE of the criticism is there a suggestion that:

folks...would rather bw sit like the proverbial frog in heating water till it boils! they are trying to get us to put off the rescue!

I think in ALL of the criticism there is a committed effort to BW doing well, being successful, having happy and fulfilling lives.

The criticism revolves around how that is being done. And that wil all of the EVIL Black man and the EVIL black community talk that message gets lost.

And anon is right: much of the dialogue on these blogs is very similar to that of White racist talk on the horros of black people as a group.

It's sad to see 'cause the overall message of finding love where love may find you is a good one.

Aimee said...

Anonymous said...

I have never suggested that most BW are abused, that black people want BW to be abused, and I'm not sure in what way I have ever "uplifted" white folks.

That wasn't directly addressed to you but just the general tone of these "something new blogs".


I can't address a "general tone," and that isn't a meaningful criticism coming from someone who was previous complaints were all centered on a dearth of facts.

Not a single thing has "hurt" me

Yeah. okay.

There is NOthing upsetting to me about bw being in ir. That is a cop out not to deal with the ideas I have presented. I rarely read the ir blogs, once every blue MOON

Yeah. Okay.

Halima said...

JJ

i have said all i need to say to you. suggesting that if folks cannot agree on fundamental aspects of the discourse they should set up seperately, is being adult. i am not sure going from blog to blog moaning about it is though!

JJ said...

i have said all i need to say to you. suggesting that if folks cannot agree on fundamental aspects of the discourse they should set up seperately, is being adult. i am not sure going from blog to blog moaning about it is though!

LOL.

I was unaware that criticizing something counted as "moaning."

The to use DBR or to not to use DBR has gone from blog to blog.

So have many of the people who have commented on the issue.

U have actually used a comment on this blog to boost your point on ur blog.

So because I disagree I am not entitled to do the same?

Aimee bought the conversation to her blog. I, like many other people who read the various IR blogs, decided to being my opinion to this one too.

Sorry if that is a problem for you.

Aimee said...

Halima said...

Aimee more than ever b/4 bw need to ignore the naysayers and cowards and raise their voices to criticise the cultures and traditions that have continued to subjugate bw even those that are yet emerging . . . we cannot afford to be fooled again!

Unfortunately, I think some people aren't going to get there. It's easy to fall into the "racist whites criticize BM for being dead-beat dads--therefore, criticizing BM for being dead-beat dads is racist" logical fallacy.

Of course, I think its equally easy to fall into the "racist whites seem to be the only ones criticizing the dead-beat dads around here--maybe the racists are right" fallacy as well.

But either way, as a BW, I'm not going to stop calling it as I see it. If other people see it differently, then I guess they have to call it differently. Even when people are reduced to being snide, I still think its better to let their words stand next to mine.

Unlike them, I'm confident that the women here can figure out what makes sense even when presented with a variety of ideas.

Evia says : said...

A MAJOR difference between a bw who is a "mammy" and a DBRbm is that a mammy is a self-sacrificer who harms herself first and foremost and uses herself up in order to "help" others. A DBRbm primarily harms others. DUH!!That's a MAJOR difference. This is the reason why a LOT of people LOVE mammies but don't want to be around the DBRs.

I cannot believe how folks start up with these simplistic, specious arguments equating oranges to orangutans. smh

Also, the main reason why I talk about DBRbm is because the last time I checked, it was DBR BLACK MEN who were the primary ones who used and abused bw and children--not Chinese men or Czech men. It is disingenuous to try to point out that ALL of these other men do these things to their women or that the problem is a societal one. The Hell I care!! We bw have to save themselves before we can care about what Chinese women and Czech women are suffering or even the women of other groups across town. If my head is all swelled up as a result of a beatdown last night by a bm, it's not consolation to me that a Chinese woman in Peking got beat up too. That's ridiculous!

The fact is that it's the DBRbmales who are wreaking havoc in these black enclaves and instead of this Anon and others trying to make bw shut up about it, they need to organize some bm to go into these enclaves and put an end to it (like the police chief in Philly is trying to do.)

Even if bw do shut up, the DBRbm WILL CONTINUE TO ESCALATE!! And bw have a right to scream about their pain!! Why should bw continue this conspiracy of silence? Will that stop the predators? How dare anyone tell a bw to just swallow her pain and shut up about it!!

So now, these attempts are underway to guilt out and scare bw into utter silence. The Anon "claims" he castigates bm too. I'd like to see the proof,LOL!--but we never will.

This Anon is berating us for saying that the bc doesn't care, but the bc knows about how bw and children are shortchanged and abused and all they usually do is cluck their tongues and say they don't understand why bw stay with these DBR men. I see and hear this everytime I'm in the black enclave near me and in every black community I've ever lived in or near. Nobody's going to tell me I'm not seeing and hearing what I do. The pain of bw in these black enclaves is very raw and real and it is growing.

And this Anon sounds like one of the regulars who troll the IR blogs and one of the 4 who writes to me with this same stuff. Anon, why don't you have a name? You don't even have a fake name? why not? It's because you don't want to be connected to some of your other ridiculous statements--hmmmm? Where's YOUR blog? Not that I would ever read it. LOL! However, if you mentioned your blog, maybe some of the folks who agree with you could go there and be with you.

gatamala said...

Is is possible to look critically at broader manifestations of destructive behaviors within our community without having a racist motive for doing so?

I need to speak on this. This was my concern long ago to, then I had a wake up call.

There seems to be the undercurrent of what "others" will think if we "air our dirty laundry". We are ALL very aware that others are watching us. So.What.Else.Is.New?

I've got some news for folks:
not just whites, but immigrants (non-white) and their cousins who have yet to come to our shores have very, very negative views of black Americans. They (many) are undoubtedly racist, ignorant and uninformed. But...they are not blind. Guess what most of these folks do and where do they work!!!! Who do they see coming in with the WIC check???? Who do they see hanging outside the store?

This cannot just be pinned on the [white] media. Yes, the media is a large part of it. Gina knows this. That's why there is a concerted effort to save our image and our people.

If I have to cut off a diseased limb to save a healthy body, I'll pull out my saw quick, fast and in a hurry. No more sacrficing of winners and potential winners for known losers.


We are at a critical stage. Outsiders are already thinking what you don't want them to think. If you are truly worried what others think, clean house so that they understand that the "bc" doesn't condone dysfunction. When you condone dysfunction or minimize by not calling it for what it is you actually MAKE the problem worse! Not only is dysfunctional behavior unchecked, or pinned on someone else, but the victims make their own excuses for it!!!


http://energycommerce.house.gov/cmte_mtgs/110-ctcp-hrg.092507.Imus.to.Industry.shtml

LOOK AT THIS LINK! OUR DYSFUNCTION IS A MATTER OF OFFICIAL RECORD AND PART OF AMERICAN HISTORY! THE JIG IS UP! THE MASQUERADE IS DONE!! College-educated David Banner is defending dysfunction, Ivy League Professor Dys(functi)on is defending this dysfunction. THEY ARE SITTING IN THE SAME ROOM CO-SIGNING WITH THOSE WHITE FOLKS YALL ARE WORRYING ABOUT

Daphne said...

I said:
It was my understanding that DBR was coined as a phrase based on legitimate experiences from black women.
Anonymous said:
SO.


Hee! This is too funny. When did responses get reduced to those reminiscent of grade school bickering?

That is COMPLETE bs and make believe.
but it is a SICK and racist Idea to think that black people don't care about bw being abused.
YOU have a personal issue with the black people so that equates to what exactly.


I never said anything about black people. I said that I have an issue with the mythology of the "black community" and the perception of its cohesion. Nowhere in my post did I denigrate blacks. I completely stand by my perception, whether or not you or anyone else deems them complete BS and racist.

So let me make sure I understand - you're not really interested in presenting another POV or actual discourse. You're just interested in hyperbole? To engage in the very hyperbole and histrionics you're accusing those same blogs of in overstating certain issues as it relates to black people? To personally attack those who challenge what your comments? Got it.

Anonymous said...

I can't address a "general tone," and that isn't a meaningful criticism coming from someone who was previous complaints were all centered on a dearth of facts.

Now that doesn't make much sense. You can address the "general condition of the black community"(which contains MILLIONS of people) with no problem, but addressing the general tone of a small group of blogs is something you can't do?
What dearth of facts? There aren't hardly any facts presented on these blogs except the 30% marriage rate for bw, the 70% oow rate for black people, and a few other negative stats. The sad part is those STATS aren't even very well understood by those that USE them. Plus how can I respond with facts to what amounts to little more than FANTASIES. If someone "believes" in something to the exclusion of logical thought, PRESENTING them with facts won't disuade them.

Yeah. okay.

In know the M.O. on these blogs is to portray people who disagree as "hurt" because bw are dating ir, but anyone reading my posts can see I made VERY little mention of bw dating wm as that is irrelevant to me. So the you must be "hurt" rhetoric doesn't apply.
But alas, for all the claims about wanting different opinions, in practical application that NEVER seems to be the case. The thing is by your previous blog post, you showed yourself to be different from these other "something new" bloggers. Again, I truly do commend you for writing what you did.

Let Love Rule said...

Daphne said...

So let me make sure I understand - you're not really interested in presenting another POV or actual discourse. You're just interested in hyperbole? To engage in the very hyperbole and histrionics you're accusing those same blogs of in overstating certain issues as it relates to black people? To personally attack those who challenge what your comments? Got it.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I think Daphne has a point here. We are basically being called racists for sharing our experience and describing the abusive behavior of some men. Which of course is very insulting.

We have a right to criticize and reflect on what's going on around us. We have a right to call out abhorrent, abusive behavior. And we should be able to do so without being called racist.

But this is just another strategy used by those who would prefer for bw to remain silent about their experience and problems within their communities.

Now I refuse to get into another stats war (cause I'm in Troll Feeders rehab), but any one can look at a number of barometers and find that in a number of areas there is much to improve in the bc. And being called racists for insisting that some bw and bm need to change what they are doing is a just another way to keep bp stuck in destructive patterns.

Evia says : said...

The thing is by your previous blog post, you showed yourself to be different from these other "something new" bloggers. Again, I truly do commend you for writing what you did.

I really had to chuckle at this comment. This is another transparent attempt to divide and conquer. You must be the same Anon troll from Halima's blog. I've heard this tactic used by racist white folks when they've said to me, "You're different. You're not like the other black folks around here." LOL!

You're showing you're not packing anything bigger in your arsenal. LOL! People of your ilk tend to focus on bw almost exclusively or totally, and not on the DBR men out there!! Go and repair them! The small number (but growing) of bw who go the IR route are fine. We're NOT the problem, so why try to fix us? If those DBR men are so repairable, why aren't you using this energy and time to repair them? Go to Philly and become one of those thousands of men who the black police chief is trying to recruit to stop the mayhem there.

The fact is that bw need to be able to identify and avoid ALL of the DBR men out there because the DBRs are also increasing. Identifying them before it's too late is so crucial!

Anonymous said...

We are at a critical stage. Outsiders are already thinking what you don't want them to think. If you are truly worried what others think, clean house so that they understand that the "bc" doesn't condone dysfunction. When you condone dysfunction or minimize by not calling it for what it is you actually MAKE the problem worse! Not only is dysfunctional behavior unchecked, or pinned on someone else, but the victims make their own excuses for it!!!

You are mis reading my point. I don't care about "white people" and what they think. As you correctly point out, they already think the worst about us ANYWAY. Although, I do disagree with the idea that what they think about us is based on the individual actions of black people. Nah, that comes 100% from racial hatred and their racial identity. Black people could ALL be saints and STILL people would believe the worst about us. History MORE than proves that. Surely as a bw you have seen how people are willing to LIE on who black women are to further their racist/sexist agendas.
My point is HOW do we see ourselves? Do we see ourselves with the SAME "white gaze" as white folks do filled with contempt and lies for black people in general, or do we find out the truth and stop relaying on racism, misperception, emotion, and ignorance to guide our views about ourselves?
Is calling other black people Names REALLY the key to happiness for individual bw? Is portraying bw as mammies, and lapdogs for black men REALLY the TRUTH? Do you really believe that the MAJORITY of individual bm and bw want bw to be alone and unhappy and with violent unemployed men as some of these bloggers suggest? You really believe that MOST bm are users and abusers of bw? You really believe that bm are PREVENTING bw from dating nonbm? How are they doing this, with MIND control of bw?
We can have any discussion in the world about black people, but if at a fundamental level YOU believe those things to be true about black people, then if I were you, I'd do some soul searching because the ANSWER to black peoples' problems CAN'T be "well black people ain't shyt". I just don't see much hope in that.

GoldenAh said...

>>You really believe that bm are PREVENTING bw from dating nonbm? How are they doing this, with MIND control of bw?

It would be great if a bw could walk down the street of a black neighborhood without being harassed. There are plenty of stories about this harassment. DC is the top offender.

Then again, the agenda is to deny the reality of bw's lives and say every testimony is a lie. Whatever.

As for DBR: deadly and harmful men exist. Nailah Franklin might be a victim of a DBR. This is the reality bw are supposed to ignore? Ha!

However, I don't follow these IR or "something new sites" to read about DBR, or even bm. I have no interest in either one.

Whenever good advice appears regarding men I read it and take it for what it's worth. That's all.

carey said...

I still dont understand why using DBR is problematic. It refers to men in general. So if a BW uses it it may refer to BM as well if a WW uses it it may refer to WM, asumming most BW date/marry BM and most WW date marry WM. So I dont see what the fuss is all about.

Moving on....the best advice I have ever recieved "BW women hold the key to change in our communty. Once we stop acceting less than the men will follow and change as well".

Halima said...

aimmee
Unfortunately, I think some people aren't going to get there. It's easy to fall into the "racist whites criticize BM for being dead-beat dads--therefore, criticizing BM for being dead-beat dads is racist" logical fallacy.

Of course, I think its equally easy to fall into the "racist whites seem to be the only ones criticizing the dead-beat dads around here--maybe the racists are right" fallacy as well.


someone needs to come into the BC and do an anlysis of the fallacies that hold us back from progress, because we seem to have invented a whole bunch of these that are have put big time stummbling blocks in our own way.

with all the disfunction in our community, folks still have problem with a few hard truths from a minority of blogs. others would have called a national day of mourning by now, but we are still content to shut down discussion purely to look good, meanwhile nobody but ourselves believes we have anything but a tattered image lol!

i dint even think i do any sort of 'hard' criticism but its almost like because it has been taboo to even say the slightest thing against bm, even when you cough, people are scandalized!

about bw and IRs

i am fast noticing that irs are becoming another arena for bw to look down their noses at fellow bw at least in three counts:

1) I didnt date wm because i couldnt find a bm and you who do are so pitiful!

2) I got over my issues with bm (if i ever had any to start with), in two days, and if you cant achieve this feat as i could, you are 'less than'and should get over it.

3) IR is free and easy and simply about loving who you love, anything more complicated than this just means you have issues and since you cant achieve this simple perspective you are detestable. etc etc

it just shows you the frame of mind of many 'sistas'.

Anonymous said...

Hee! This is too funny. When did responses get reduced to those reminiscent of grade school bickering?

Well, instead of writing that even if what you wrote was true, that STILL didn't address or prove the overall point you were trying to make, I decided to type "So".

I never said anything about black people. I said that I have an issue with the mythology of the "black community" and the perception of its cohesion. Nowhere in my post did I denigrate blacks. I completely stand by my perception, whether or not you or anyone else deems them complete BS and racist.

The idea of whether there is a "black community" is a WHOLE nother discussion, but I will say this that black people as individuals DO FEEL that our fates are intertwined to a certain extent. Do FEEL that we have an obligation to "help" out the black community and other black people. Do FEEL that the is a connection between. Now obviously this feeling doesn't apply to all black people, nor is it easy to define what that feeling is, but I think the COLLECTIVE social, politcal, cultural,and religious community in this country is UNIQUE for black people. Now as to what myths you are talking about, you'd have to enumerate them.

So let me make sure I understand - you're not really interested in presenting another POV or actual discourse.

I believe I am presenting a POV and am having a discourse.

You're just interested in hyperbole? To engage in the very hyperbole and histrionics you're accusing those same blogs of in overstating certain issues as it relates to black people? To personally attack those who challenge what your comments? Got it.

Now wait a minute, I have not personally attacked ANYONE. I have not made ANY personal comments towards anyone.
As far as engaging in hyperbole, sadly I am not doing that, In many of these blogs black people ARE being presented EXACLTY as I have written.

Saddie said...

DBR: Dysfunctional Because of (too much historical)Reverence ?

Ruth LaMorena said...

Language can be used to convey ideas and a lexicon is shorthand communication. Sometimes language is used to get an audience’s attention, make them think, and react. That is how I see the use of DBR. Many bw are raised to provide for others, sometimes at the expense of our own well-being. There are men – not ALL men, but enough – who know bw will give their all and prey upon these women. Here are a few examples of such a man’s behavior that some women allow:

-A man who won’t work and expect someone else to support him;
-a man who will take one woman’s stuff and use if with/for another woman (her car, her apartment, her cell phone, etc.);
-a man who will neither defend nor protect the woman who’s body he is using – or a man who won’t even remember that woman’s birthday;
-a man who is nothing more than a living insemination mechanism – not a father.

I have friends, relatives, coworkers, and clients whose lives have been upset by men like this. If a woman needs to read about DBR men in order to assess her own life circumstances and then decide what kind of relationship she really wants, then the term is necessary.

I have read where the term has been used as a synonym for bm, yet in the comments that use it that way, I can easily read the sheer pain and dismay and frustration underneath the message. If some people read individual women’s experiences – not their imagined experiences, but their real lived experiences – and think that all IR blogs are racist and the women on the blogs must 1)hate bm and 2)must be making up these stories to further their nefarious IR agenda, then they must not be reading the same things I am reading.

For the record, as a social worker, I believe that no one is damaged beyond repair. I try to help people correct their life situations at work everyday. However, I ain’t tryin’ to date or marry a man who needs to be “fixed.” Come correct, as I will, or don’t come at me at all.

http://meditationsonreeducation.blogspot.com/

roslynholcomb said...

"Additionally, I find it puzzling that because a BW is interested in dating IR, the assumption is that she has no further reason to ever think about BM."

There's no reason for a black woman to think about OR talk about black men on a blog that is dedicated to IR dating, which most of these blogs are. If that doesn't pertain to your blog fine. But I'm gobsmacked as to why black women are spending most of their time on a blog entitled 'dateawhiteguy.com' talking about black men. Seems bizarre as hell to me. For black women interested in IR, black men are irrelevant from a romantic standpoint when they're on an IR blog/website.

carey said...

Am thinking why dont we focus more on talking about experiences and cultural factors concerning black women and white men, good or bad. For example I would like to hear things like how white men view black women. What boundaries, if any, have black women and white men have had to overcome. I would also like to hear more about black women and /european/asian/latin men. This way we can get to the true discussion of BW in IRS.

Anonymous said...

relationship questions: what are the mental/emotional difference b/t old white men and their younger counterparts, if any. Which group is more apt to dating black wome? Do white men have more to lose meaning "appearance" among their community? What area has the most IR couples of BW and WM?
ok just thinking out loud, feel free to add more.

Aimee said...

Ruth LaMorena said...

For the record, as a social worker, I believe that no one is damaged beyond repair. I try to help people correct their life situations at work everyday. However, I ain’t tryin’ to date or marry a man who needs to be “fixed.”

To me that sums the value of the DBR concept up in a nutshell. There is no way to judge someone else's potential for repair in a global sense--the issue is whether "repair" is an activity that should be undertaken in the context of an intimate relationship. I agree with you wholeheartedly that the answer to that question is "NO"! If a man is so damaged that he he needs to be fixed in order to be a functional partner, then he is DBR.

Aimee said...

roslynholcomb said...

There's no reason for a black woman to think about OR talk about black men on a blog that is dedicated to IR dating, which most of these blogs are. If that doesn't pertain to your blog fine.

You're right--your assessment doesn't pertain to my blog. In terms of other blogs, my opinion is people should talk about whatever gets them to where they need to be. Most importantly, people will talk about whatever will get them where they need to be--which is why it's important to have a variety of forums for sisters to turn to, so that at whatever stage they're at, they can find the information and conversation that fits their needs.

Halima and Evia have repeatedly made it clear that they can't be all things to all people, which is why they encourage other sisters to blog as well. I think more voices are always needed.

Aimee said...

Anonymous said...

relationship questions: what are the mental/emotional difference b/t old white men and their younger counterparts, if any. Which group is more apt to dating black wome? Do white men have more to lose meaning "appearance" among their community? What area has the most IR couples of BW and WM?
ok just thinking out loud, feel free to add more.


There are WM readers of this blog, and I would encourage them to address these questions, because they would probably be better qualified to do so. I would also encourage to check out Classical One's "WM who prefer BW" blog, because you find a larger population of such men there who can address such questions.

During the course of my life I've dated WM from about 18-45; my husband is 5 yrs older than me. I haven't noticed much difference based on age in terms of the way that they relate to me as a BW; the age differences generally just reflect differences in experience, from what I have seen.

Anonymous said...

"I'm gobsmacked as to why black women are spending most of their time on a blog entitled 'dateawhiteguy.com' talking about black men"

Me too. If BW who date IR are unreservedly "playing the field", then why whinge constantly about BM and/or the uniquely accursed DBRs if they are at most a majority of a minority?
Seems as though that a lot of BW who date IR (or at least those that complain on this and other blogs) would actually prefer to be in a good relationship, as they perceive it, with a BM. It hurts their pride that they started dating IR as a latter resort AFTER failing to find Prince Charming amongst the BM population. In a world where people aspire to live life like a fairytale, it's not nice for you or The-Love-Of-Your-Life to know that in reality you're not Cinderella but simply the best that your opposite number could get. It's time for intelligent BW and BM to put aside the egotism, vanity and pseudological theorising, and all say, whilst always maintaining our self respect, we do care about each other and want to sort thing's out.

Anonymous said...

Ruth La Morena said..

"For the record, as a social worker, I believe that no one is damaged beyond repair"

To which aimee said..

"To me that sums the value of the DBR concept up in a nutshell"

Errr, only if that sum adds up to zero (or less). Sorry but Ms La Morena words are unequivocal, no one's unredeemable but personally she's not letting some lowlife stick around whilst she waits for him to fix up.

"If a man is so damaged that he he needs to be fixed in order to be a functional partner, then he is DBR"

Why don't you give this DBR concept a rest? Or more precisely the "Beyond Repair" part? It seems like you've invested so much mental energy on it that you feel like you'll lose face if you don't keep it going. Honestly, just come up with some less dogmatic terminology and you won't have to do logical back flips to get youself out of an intellectual corner.

roslynholcomb said...

"relationship questions: what are the mental/emotional difference b/t old white men and their younger counterparts, if any. Which group is more apt to dating black wome? Do white men have more to lose meaning "appearance" among their community? What area has the most IR couples of BW and WM?"

I haven't dated any old men, black or white, so I realy can't help you there. I think the primary barrier between black women and white men is the perception that we both have the most to lose by engaging in IRs. IMO, black women and white men are most invested in their respective communities. They have both taken on that 'backbone' role. This is actually a great similarity between us that could be exploited as a bonding agent.

Assuredly, white men have a lot to lose. Within the white community it is assumed that a white man who IRs with black women is a 'wigga' or wannabe. Obviously, there's no group more despised amongst whites than the 'Federlines' amongst them. This is one way white men are kept 'in line' so to speak.

Anonymous said...

Warning: DBR

There are warning labels for everything else that could become hazardous to your health.

This label is not just for BM, it is for ANYONE. And there are a lot of damaged people out there.

DBR is a warning to all men and women, not just bm.

jj said :
''So why DBR?

I'm glad you commented on it because on Halima's blog I pointed out that I don't believe Black Women are so STUPID or INFANTILE not to be able to know bad men when they see one.

There are ALL types of women who do a piss poor job of choosing men. That's just not limited to Black women.''

IMO: I don't think that women, BW or any other woman is Stupid or Infantile but the pattern of women and the choices they make when it comes to men says different, or why else would this still be such an hot topic.

Nothing has changed. Women still make piss poor choices because they refuse to admit that they are in a dead end realtionship with a DBR man.
But hey ' At least they got a man' LOL.

I also think the main purpose of these blogs, IR or other is to empower women, not just black women to do better. Women can be the CFO of a large company but can't find a life partner. I just refuse to believe that.

..othersideoftheworld

Aimee said...

Anonymous said...

Why don't you give this DBR concept a rest? Or more precisely the "Beyond Repair" part?

Because I find it a useful descriptor.

It seems like you've invested so much mental energy on it that you feel like you'll lose face if you don't keep it going.

Not at all.

Honestly, just come up with some less dogmatic terminology

Uhh . . . no. It would be an overinvestment of mental energy to struggle to come up with a term that will please everyone when one that works perfectly well for my purposes exists. I'll just continue to use the terms I find apt, and discuss the subjects I find worthy of discussion, and suggest you do the same. The end.

Evia says : said...

Why don't you give this DBR concept a rest? Or more precisely the "Beyond Repair" part?

I personally won't give it a rest because the DBRs are out there in full force waiting to prey on unsuspecting black females and/or other females who don't think they have any other options but to consort with these males because 2-1 does indeed = 1. Bw do see and talk constantly about the slim pickings. LOL!

I would certainly want people to warn me about the DBRs. For ex., at a crafts show last November, a pretty 16-year old black girl came over and was chatting with me about her aspirations to become a nurse and a model. She said she really loved science and was looking forward to a career in it. We started talking about some of the girls at her high school and she mentioned that a lot of them were having sex and getting pregnant. I pointed out that the girls were really looking for love, acceptance and not sex. She said that some of them like to talk about sex and that they would say they do want the sex. A late-30ish, single, DBRbm (in and out of jail type) overheard us and disagreed with me, saying that a lot of teenage girls actually want the sex and told me flat out, 'you're wrong about that other stuff'(love and acceptance).

We went back and forth for a while, but I was very irritated because I could tell from his attitude that he was more than likely one of the men in that black enclave who's sexing teen girls.

Last week, a friend of mine told me that she saw this man chatting with the teen girl I had chatted with and she saw the girl give him her phone number.

On Saturday, we talked with this girl's aunt about this situation because we would hate to see yet another black girl become a baby momma of a DBR. She said she hoped the girl would have enough sense not to get involved with this loser, but said she would talk with her.

If young black girls were firmly taught from an early age how to identify and avoid the DBR males (we all know the behaviors of these males), then black girls and women would be a lot better off, but how can we even beging to warn the girls if we can't even identify and talk about these males in the midst?

I've done some research on how these men were previously idenfified since there is all of this opposition to this term "DBR" and I read that these males used to just be labelled "no good," but that label was also pounced on and discarded. I know now that no matter what label is used, it will be pounced on because so many black folks are determined to protect bm at the expense of black females.

I know that some people would say that we black folks have to give these males a chance to show us they can do better, but I'm not willing for any black female I care about to be used in this social experiment.

We all know that one of the reasons why more bfs are going to jail these days ('ride or die chicks') is because of their hanging out with and sticking by these DBR males.

Halima said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Halima said...

IMO: I don't think that women, BW or any other woman is Stupid or Infantile but the pattern of women and the choices they make when it comes to men says different, or why else would this still be such an hot topic.

Othersideoftheworld

can you explain to me how bw are supposed to make better choices in men when they are restricted to one group of men?

Does making better choice not hinge a great deal on having a wider choice?

Daphne said...

I'll just continue to use the terms I find apt, and discuss the subjects I find worthy of discussion, and suggest you do the same. The end.

LOL. Thank you for breaking it down, Aimee. Please continue to blog, and I, for one, will continue to read.

arthur said...

..I know that some people would say that we black folks have to give these males a chance to show us they can do better but I'm not willing for any black female I care about to be used in this social experiment.
..


I have got to say something here. The people who would say "give these males a chance" are not aware the the chance to do better is available to us all 24/7/365? Any 'male' of any color can show you that he is doing better by actually doing better.

He will get a job and keep it. He will take classes and finish them. And so on. It's really very simple (hard, but simple).

I know this is preaching to the choir, but maybe some young woman who is reading this, and is new to these ideas, may take something from it. Thanks.

Anonymous said...

" Halmia said: can you explain to me how bw are supposed to make better choices in men when they are restricted to one group of men?

Does making better choice not hinge a great deal on having a wider choice? "

Halmia I'm not talking just about black women, I'm talking about all women. A man is a man and women are looking for good men, right?

(Well not me because I'm an Scandinavian man married to a Beautiful African American Woman.)

I know that some of these blogs are about Black Women 'getting out of their boxes' as Evia has said. And yes I agree that black women should expand their choices when it comes to men.

BTW Who makes up these restrictions? Is it the BC or something else? Is it something that is taught?

I'm just trying to learn something here. I'm not trying to make any enemies. And I must blame my wife who's idea it was that I read these blogs about Black Women and IR; and there are a lot of my "why questions" she cannot answer for me. She saids that it's just the mentality of the Black American culture. And of course I always ask why.

But let me also say that because I don't live in America I get my perspective about Black America from my wife, TV, books, etc. In Europe at least in our part of Scandinavian, we don't group all Black Americans together. So if one person says that 'THAT bm is a DBR man, we don't think that ALL bm are. We don't believe the media. The media is there to entertain us not to teach us. That should come from reading and research, talking with your family and friends, etc. Those of us that are interested in Black American culture read books, will go online, etc. to find out the truths, at least we try to anyway.

If we are not taught how to screen such people who are not good for us, then we need something to let us know.

DBR seems to be the strongest 'label' that gets the message across to everyone.

Maybe if DBR is made into rap song like 'no more scrubs' then maybe more people would be aware of such behavior...or have I just cross the line....

...othersideoftheworld

Anonymous said...

I would certainly want people to warn me about the DBRs. For ex., at a crafts show last November, a pretty 16-year old black girl came over and was chatting with me about her aspirations to become a nurse and a model. She said she really loved science and was looking forward to a career in it. We started talking about some of the girls at her high school and she mentioned that a lot of them were having sex and getting pregnant.


This HAS to be pointed out. From a statistical standpoint RIGHT NOW 90% of black teen girls 15-19 don't have ANY CHILDREN. So this idea that you are putting forth that in black communities/neighborhoods or as YOU call them "black enclaves(what degrading term by the way)", it is the NORM for black teen girls to be pregnant by grown bm DOES NOT describe the behavior of anywhere near the majority of black teen girls, or adult bm.

If young black girls were firmly taught from an early age how to identify and avoid the DBR males (we all know the behaviors of these males), then black girls and women would be a lot better off, but how can we even beging to warn the girls if we can't even identify and talk about these males in the midst?

I can assure you, the idea of grown men sexing teen girls is NOT limited to bm. Even if black teen girls were surrounded by non bm SOME of those grown non bm would TRY to have sex with them. So, I agree that we have to protect young girls from predators, but their being predators is based on their "behavior" not their race.

D said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
D said...

Hi everybody...

To put my observations in perspective, I'm a white male who has dated interracially, and probably will do so again. I joined this forum after the national news story a few months ago, but I've been busy with other stuff lately, so I haven't heard what's gone on in between... but it appears I've missed a little bit.

There's a lot I agree with above, and a little I disagree with... I'm not going to quote everything that would take forever, and be repetitive... so I'll focus on the post I think most "nailed" how I feel...

Trvlrgrl said...
I don't like the term mammy either but I think the big difference for me is that "damaged beyond repair" implies that a person is so effed up as to be beyond recovery. On the other hand, many folks on these blogs are actively trying to get women to stop behaving like "mammys".

Also, some times "DBR" is used to refer to non-black men, but not typically. I think the suggestion that hoards of black men are "beyond repair" is extremely problematic and harmful. Not to be too dramatic, but this is precisely the kind of racist hate-mongering that often accompanies massive discrimination and incidents of genocide. Once you take a group outside of the human family and label them as "beyond repair", folks can justify any kind of horrendous treatment of them.

I am not saying there's a straight line from using that term on these IR blogs and massive discrimination or violence...I am saying that when you bring that language into the public sphere (particularly on the internet) you may be feeding hateful beliefs.

It would not surprise me if the term "damaged beyond repair black men" starts popping up in other e forums and don't you think the first thing folks will say is ..."hey this is coming from black women not us...even they think these men are "beyond repair".

But more importantly, if folks on these IR blogs are truly, truly about encouraging black women to consider a variety of men as partners, angry, derogatory terms only encourage debate, argument, and discussion about those terms, what they mean, who they apply to, who's not included...yada yada yada.

Black women who support and love black folks but want to expand their dating options will be turned off and frankly, I think many non-black men may wonder whether they want to get involved with a bunch of women who seem so angry.


---------------------------------------

Verrrry well said, Trvlrgrl... I agree with every single paragraph.

I have a 13 year old daughter, and at the same time I'm encouraging her to stay away from DBR boys (and girls), I'm also letting her know that over-generalizing and giving too broad of a meaning to labels gets bad results. As the bottom line, everyone must be judged as an individual, based on their own actions.

I understand the need to stay away from DBR individuals... I try to pass along the same ideas to my daughter... but as a soccer coach, I've found it much, much, much more effective to spend the bulk of coaching time on the results you want, and not on the results you don't want.

There's an idea in Taoism... "You get what you focus on"... whether that focus is "I want XYZ", or "I don't want XYZ". Whatever XYZ is, if you talk and think about it a lot (either in the negative or positive), then XYZ occupies a central and ongoing part of your life.

I mentioned that it looks like I've missed something in the last month or two... and I say that because this conversation is a lot more nuanced and developed than it was a few months ago... and also it seems like there's less BM bashing... which I see as a good thing.

If I happen to marry and have children with a BW, then many people will consider my kids to be black. I think it would be more accurate to say 'bi-racial', but that's another issue... but I see a danger that my son might have this DBR label slapped undeservingly on him if it is tossed around too derogatorily and loosely in general. I will do my part as a father to raise my son to be responsible, respectful, strong, and independent... and not damaged.

I understand the label, and where it comes from... and that it applies when and where it applies... but like most things, when the generalizations start getting thrown around too loosely is when I start objecting.

You ladies are nothing short of amazing re: your dedication to this topic and ability to keep straight all these numerous threads of the conversation. The depth which you discuss things is better than any blog topic I've read anywhere, ever. I wish a lot more people got half (or even a quarter) as fired up about the world they live in. If this depth and thoroughness is a legacy of overcoming hardship, that in a way is sad, but in another way is great... even only partially harnessed, there's a lot of energy and ideas for positive change in the world here. : )

D

Anonymous said...

D with all due respect, you need to can the concern for BM's feelings. The bottom line is that they DESERVE to be bashed for hurting and rejecting BW like this. And I do not think you should worry about your son being labeled a DBR. With a beautiful Black mother, and a White father like yourself, I think he will be just FINE. Anybody not what like what I just said? Well TOUGH COOKIES. I do not like all the idiots babying/proctecting BM and putting down BW, so we are even.

Trula said...

As a black woman married to a white man, I have been shocked at some of the things I have read on these blogs you mention.

I wonder how their white husbands feel being second best and knowing their wives married them because they were fed up with black men.

I also wonder how on earth these women are going to raise black/mixed children, especially sons, with good self-esteem since they feel so negatively toward black men.

I wrote a post about this on my marriage blog

Anonymous said...

Trula, please. These women feel that way about BM because BM have treated them so poorly. I wish people would stop crying for BM already. Let the White women take care of them, since they love each other so much. Nobody cares about BW and that is who needs love and care the most. And do not worry about those kids. First of all they are part white, and if told to honor that and not treat it like a disease, they will be just fine.