Tuesday, March 4, 2008

Race and Gender, Part II

I did it! I don't get my results until May, but just finishing the NY Bar Exam itself feels like a huge load off of my shoulders. I returned to a ton of work at the office, but at least I have a bit of breathing room, and a bit of time to devote to the blog!

In any case, like most Americans, much of my non-Bar related attention has been focused recently on the presidential race, and more specifically, on the Democratic primaries. I should state from the outset that I don't consider myself a Democrat or a fan of either Senator Clinton or Senator Obama; but the contest between them has fascinated me for a reason I'm sure many of you could guess (though, of course, it has been rarely addressed in the mainstream media): the echoes of earlier conflicts between black men and white women, and the complete invisibility of black women as a part of the political discourse on the issue.

As we know, much of the white suffragist leadership after the Civil War actively opposed the grant of the vote to the black freedmen under the 15th Amendment to the Constitution in crudely racist terms, appealing to white men's sense of race loyalty and white supremacy in an effort to win the vote for themselves instead of the recently freed black man. As Susan B. Anthony wrote about the issue:

While the dominant party have with one hand lifted up TWO MILLION BLACK MEN and crowned them with the honor and dignity of citizenship with the other they have
dethroned FIFTEEN MILLION WHITE WOMEN - their own mothers and sisters, their own wives and daughters - and cast them under the heel of the lowest orders of
manhood.


Elizabeth Cady Stanton warned white men that giving black men the vote instead of "their own mothers and sisters, wives and daughters," would "culminate in fearful outrages on [white] womanhood, especially in the southern states."

Though both Anthony and Stanton had been ardent abolitionists, their opposition to slavery had less to do with a belief in the equality of the races than in the idea that the inhumanity of slavery was not only cruel to blacks, but debasing to otherwise superior whites (just as many "liberal" whites today support affirmative action only to the degree which it provides "diverse" experiences for white students and workers--the primary wrong redressed must always be the threat imposed to the interests of whites). While they did not believe blacks should be slaves, though also did not believe that blacks should have the same rights and social status as whites--which is why, unlike black feminists like Frances Ellen Harper, they did not advocate suffrage for all (including all male and female citizens), but rather, suffrage for white women instead of black men.

Today, Gloria Steinam complains of a similar perceived relative advantaging of black men at the expense of white women as reflected in the Clinton vs. Obama race, asserting in a recent New York Times op-ed:

Black men were given the vote a half-century before women of any race were
allowed to mark a ballot, and generally have ascended to positions of power,
from the military to the boardroom, before any women (with the possible
exception of obedient family members in the latter).


While many black men seem certain that it is black women who are their traitorous enemies, they are strangely forgiving of white women, who have a long and continuing history of appealing to white men's basest instincts in an effort to maintain a relative advantage over black men--even if it means remaining in an inferior position to white men. In a similar fashion, many black men who seem perfectly comfortable seeing white male and white female CEOs and millionaires grumble incessently about Oprah, and reject any positive claim about black female achievement--while seemingly comfortable with material and social inferiority to any and all whites, they are outraged by black women's attempts to achieve greater wealth, education, and power, seeing any upward movement on our part as somehow being at their expense.

What the two groups share, as always, is their comfort with the invisibility of black women as anything other than as props or as silent, mulish support for their interests. We are not presumed to have interests of our own, separate and distinct from either group's, and our proper role appears to be simply laboring silently on behalf of the "struggles" of whoever chooses to claim us when convenient. If either Hilary or Barack has considered crafting a special message to appeal to black women in order to win our votes, I have yet to hear it--both seem to assume that we "belong" to them, and are only roused from their black woman-induced slumber if it appears there is a revolt in the ranks--in which case they are properly outraged by our "betrayal."

Well guess what: I am a black woman. I believe in equality for all, but I unapologetically advocate for the interests of myself and my sisters first and foremost: I don't "owe" black men or white women my support. I want to see more black women in the professions, in higher education, in positions of political power and business influence. I am concerned about our physical and mental health, and about the special challenges we face as mothers. I am outraged by our exclusion from public visibility, from the political theater to the beauty industry. And nobody gets my support for free. Wherever you fall on the political spectrum sisters, make sure that your support comes with a price. We must properly value ourselves before we expect the same from others--even our supposed "natural allies."

132 comments:

New Black Woman said...

That was great!

Felicia said...

WELL worth the wait Aimee. WELL worth the wait.

BRAVO and congrats on finishing the Bar Exam!

Many of us have made the same exact observations.

You express yourself so well.

Shocol said...

Great post, Aimee. I see so many black folk excited about Obama, but has anybody answered the question, 'What is Obama going to do for black Americans, women in particular?' What do I get/can expect in return for my vote? And since we're talking race and gender, I would really be interested in seeing a study of minority women, black women in particular, who won't/didn't vote for Hilary Clinton, not because she is a woman, but because she is a WHITE woman.

chandy said...

Hi Aimee
My stance so far has been one of a womanist so far, but since the assumption that, like you phrased it and I parapharase:, "we (black) women belong to either one of them", I'm considering other "alternatives" that REALLY have my and other womens' interests at heart and of course the good and betterment of this country. Race and gender will not sway my vote, though for a hot minute there, I was leaning more towards gender.
Am perusing some other blogs that I consider conducive to my eventual stance (of course along with analysing the issues and positions of each candidate/party for myself). So danke for your well put thoughts.

Halima said...

welcome back aimee, we missed ya!

daphne said...

Well said. As Shecodes once mentioned, I think on her blog, Black Women Vote, leverage over loyalty.

Jay said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
daphne said...

This is just baseless rhetoric.

Here we go again.....

arthur said...

..welcome back aimee, we missed ya! ..

Cosign :)

Jay said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Sandra77 said...

Jay, please take your black male proselytizing elsewhere. Don't waste my time or the time of other readers of this blog with your nonsense - readers of this blog have long since bypassed your simplistic arguments. Do you actually think your "arguments" are original? I've heard them ad nauseum, I was not persuaded by them before, and I am not persuaded by them now. As usual, it's all about the black man, and black women can't possibly have any concerns or viewpoints different from black men - that's the same argument white men used to use against white women back in the 70's and 80's - 20 and 30 years later you're trying to regurgitate that crap - LOL!

daphne said...

Jay, a few questions:

What does Halima, Evia, or the "blog circle" have to do with this post? It sounds like, because you can't go off on their blogs, because Evia removed comments and Halima moderates, you're coming to this one to vent, using this particular post as a catalyst.

Instead of immediately dismissing the post, calling it baseless rhetoric, why not do what you did in your 2nd post, which is reference a text as a counterpoint in your argument? By going off on the first post, anyone who might have been receptive to your thoughts probably got turned off and dismissed you the way you dismissed Aimee and her post.

I've heard that some, maybe many, of the blogs hosted by black men feature negative posts about black women. But you know - I don't hunt them down. I certainly don't disrespect the blog owners by posting hyperbolic rants and dictating that what they should or should not specify to appease me. If the tone of this post and the "blog circles" disturb you so much, why are you even here? If we're just "angry black women", wouldn't it serve you better to avoid us altogether? Why put in the energy to engage in condescending debate and blatant insults?

Anonymous said...

Excellent post Aimee! I want to get some things up on my blog re: pimp culture and the pimping of our girls by mostly BM. I notice that if BM cannot pimp and/or make money off BW and Black girls, they want nothing to do with us.

It's disturbing how pimps are glorified in our communities, Iceberg Slim, etc, and how many hip hop hustlers channel these pimp personas. These guys are millionaires, and the message is that pimping can make you rich.

Snoop Dogg, 50 Cent, Jay Z, they have all used black girls to further their ends and their fame is impressionable to the black male youths coming up in our communities. These black youths want to be pimps.

The cycle has to end. Oprah was attacked by 50 Cent because, basically, she ignores him/hasn't invited him to the show, etc. A lot of Black folks in the community, and ESPECIALLY BM, resent/hate her because she is unwilling to be pimped. Because she doesn't bend down at the alter of black men and won't be controlled, she is despised.

I notice that the lynchpin is control. To the extent that a man can control you and use you to make money off you, you're in his good graces. The minute you cut him out or he is no longer making money off you, you're either an enemy or you're no longer useful.

Another trend: BM openly and publicly expressing admiration for non BW, agree with you there.

I walk through my social circles and notice BM will not even make eye contact with me and my girlfriends but will go out of their way to hold doors and compliment non BW.

It's very sad. But we as BW are only speaking truth to power and becoming baby-Oprahs everyday. People who are hell bent on stopping us will have to love us or leave us alone. You can't save everybody.
DorothyfromJersey

La ~ msviswan said...

"I did it! I don't get my results until May, but just finishing the NY Bar Exam itself feels like a huge load off of my shoulders."

Congrats!

"While many black men seem certain that it is black women who are their traitorous enemies, they are strangely forgiving of white women, who have a long and continuing history of appealing to white men's basest instincts in an effort to maintain a relative advantage over black men--even if it means remaining in an inferior position to white men. "

It's like a racial and sexist inferiority disorder in one. These type black men still "subconsciously" see white's superior, so they will accept or feel comfortable with the white female at a higher professional level (race inferiority). However, under the white man because she's a woman (sexism). Therefore, it's no surprise the black woman's place should fall in the same sexist order, below them all. Sadly, they need to feel like they're above somebody. Not.

I don't take Steinberg seriously. I think she's trying to sugar coat her bigotry hiding behind feminism (personal opi). If Hilary was a black woman, could she honesty say she would have gotten this far? In this situation, women like Steinberg are really afraid of ending up on the bottom of the professional totem pole, that's all it is. It's not about women, it's about white womanhood and keeping their safe "place", even if it's directly under the white male. They may complain about that, but it's really now about keeping themselves above blacks and other minorities. I know how that sounds.

Your last paragraph was great!

PioneerValleyWoman said...

Glad to see you're back, Aimee!

Good luck with everything, and a great post as usual!

Aimee said...

Jay said...

There is no significant expression of adoration for white women by black men

Okay, this is just pure comedy.

No one grumbles about Oprah because of her financial success. Oprah is grumbled about because of how her subject matter caters to middle class white women and how she sometimes demonizes black men.

I wasn't addressing why you supposedly grumble about Oprah--I was addressing the simple fact that you DO grumble about Oprah and DON'T grumble about rich and powerful white men and women. Where is the racialist loyalty to Oprah? Where is all that "pro-black" militancy in confronting the wealthy white elites who actually run our society? Things that make you go hmmm . . .

It is amazing how this contrasts the notion that this blog circle puts out of black men mooching and living off of black women. If this is true, wouldn't black men celebrate black women's success because it would better able them to take care of black men? Which is it?

We've all seen people who both depend on someone for support, and simultaneously resent that same person for being in the position to support them. After all, money is power in our society--unless you can convince the one with the money that they have no legitimate right to exercise the power that they have earned. And this isn't about "black men and black women"; it's about DBRBM and the mules they exploit.

The fact is that any animosity about black women's success is due to how success often molds the attitudes of black women toward black men. If a black woman is financially successful, yet still treats her man like a man and shows him respect, then there is no problem.

No, this is about how resentful and uncomfortable DBRBM are with BW's success, and how they are committed to punishing BW for that success even as they depend on it. A man who conducts himself like a man doesn't have to worry about being respected by his woman or anyone else.

Aimee said...

La ~ msviswan said...

I think she's trying to sugar coat her bigotry hiding behind feminism (personal opi). If Hilary was a black woman, could she honesty say she would have gotten this far? In this situation, women like Stein[em] are really afraid of ending up on the bottom of the professional totem pole, that's all it is. It's not about women, it's about white womanhood and keeping their safe "place", even if it's directly under the white male. They may complain about that, but it's really now about keeping themselves above blacks and other minorities. I know how that sounds.

I have a lot of respect for much of Gloria Steinam's work, but this has always been the the falseness at the core of mainstream white feminism in this country--that it is white feminism, and that they have been completely unwilling to acknowledge that. Any claim they make or any crusade they undertake is legitimized by referring to the "50%+" of the population that is female. But ultimately, they're interest has been in maximizing the wealth, power, and influence of educated, privileged, affluent white women. There isn't necessarily anything wrong with that--I certainly don't apologize for being an advocate for the interests of black women. But there is something wrong with dishonesty, and with claiming all women when you want something, but only claiming each other when the goodies are actually being passed out. That isn't feminism, it's just interest politics. They need to "woman up" and be real about it.

And thanks to everybody for the congratulations and the warm welcome back! Trust me--it's great to be back!

Anonymous said...

Interesting post Anon. Here are my experiences.

Anonymous said...
Excellent post Aimee! I want to get some things up on my blog re: pimp culture and the pimping of our girls by mostly BM. I notice that if BM cannot pimp and/or make money off BW and Black girls, they want nothing to do with us.


What I've noticed is that if BW look good (nice body, nice face, etc.) black men will want to have plenty to do with you even if you are flat broke.

I'm curious as to what you mean when you say to "pimp" someone. A lot of people are captivated by certain imagery. The Italian Mafia is a good example. Many folks are fascinated by it, yet VERY few would actually want to be a part of it. Similarly, while too many young black males are enthralled by the pimp imagery (as well as too many non-black young males), only a very miniscule number actually aspire to put women out on the streets.

It's disturbing how pimps are glorified in our communities, Iceberg Slim, etc, and how many hip hop hustlers channel these pimp personas. These guys are millionaires, and the message is that pimping can make you rich.

Snoop Dogg, 50 Cent, Jay Z, they have all used black girls to further their ends and their fame is impressionable to the black male youths coming up in our communities. These black youths want to be pimps.


I agree that the pimp imagery is glamorized and too many black males are fascinated with that imagery, but very few actually aspire to be working pimps. Heck, many black females are fascinated with pimps, yet VERY few aspire to be prostitutes. Even with this, the number of black female prostitutes is significantly greater than the number of working black male pimps and white women are some of the main targets of those black men who actually are working pimps.

The cycle has to end. Oprah was attacked by 50 Cent because, basically, she ignores him/hasn't invited him to the show, etc. A lot of Black folks in the community, and ESPECIALLY BM, resent/hate her because she is unwilling to be pimped. Because she doesn't bend down at the alter of black men and won't be controlled, she is despised.

I sort of disagree. Oprah is not despised by black men. She may be somewhat unpopular with black men (and many black women) because she caters to a white, middle class female audience. She may also be unpopular with many black men due to the perception of many that she bashes black men. To expand on that, she may be unpopular with many white and other non-black men due the perception that she bashes males. But I doubt that she is despised for being independent and successful.

African American women are probably the most independent and assertive women in the world. Black men are accustomed to that which is why so many don't feel stigmatized by their women making more money than they do. For many years, Oprah has been in a long term relationship with a black man who she make ENORMOUSLY more money than (does he even work?). I'm sure that he benefits greatly financially from his relationship with her, yet I doubt that anyone would accuse him of "pimping" her.

I notice that the lynchpin is control. To the extent that a man can control you and use you to make money off you, you're in his good graces. The minute you cut him out or he is no longer making money off you, you're either an enemy or you're no longer useful.

I think that this is much less influential than how a woman looks. This applies to women to a much greater extent. With many more women of all races, a man is useful as long as she is benefiting financially off of him. Men, including black men, will deal with a woman who they see as beautiful, fine, etc. no matter her income level. While there are probably too many black males like what you describe, I believe that this is far from the norm.

Another trend: BM openly and publicly expressing admiration for non BW, agree with you there.

What I've noticed is that BM openly and publicly express attraction to good looking women of all races.

I walk through my social circles and notice BM will not even make eye contact with me and my girlfriends but will go out of their way to hold doors and compliment non BW.

I've never experienced this. What I have noticed is that a too many black males don't feel any obligation to hold doors or in any way be chivalrous to any women due to not having been taught etiquette. As far as flirting and compliments, My experiences have been that black men will tend more to flirt and compliment black women due to feeling that black women are more likely to respond positively to their flirtations than other women.

BM and men in general tend to open doors and compliment women they are attracted to, and since a lot of black men are attracted to your lighter skinned, straighter haired black women, they may get more of such attention. But black men tend to be more attracted to black women of ALL shades than they are to white women and other non-black women.

jay said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

Hmmm. Anon, you sound just like my uncle (he says "black females" too. I wonder if you read my post through to the end or if it wasn't really important enough to just write "Dorothy" instead of write Anon. I did sign my name. You've proved my point, though, so I know I'm not going crazy.

Anonymous said...

Hmmm Dorthy. Under the "Choose an identity" part, one is given the choice to be anonymous or give a name with or without a google account. Since you chose anonymous, don't you think that there is a good chance that some attached name to the end of your post that doesn't even leave a space between it and your last paragraph would not register enough with someone responding to you for that person to actually reference you by that name?

Clearly, such an oversight proves no point.

PioneerValleyWoman said...

Shecodes' blog, others might have addressed this, but she is thinking of a black women's movement...Check her most recent two posts....

http://www.blackwomenvote.blogspot.com/

Aimee said...

jay said...

Really? Answer me this, if you don't mind. Do white men adore Asian women? Do you adore white men? Do black women adore thugs?

I can only answer for myself that I certainly adore the white man that I am married to. Otherwise, I'm not sure what the rest if it has to do with BM's adoration of WW.

LOL@Beyonce Knowles is estimated to have a net worth of 315 million. Black men love her.

Maybe you should live for a while as a black man who carries himself as a man

Maybe you should.

arthur said...

..Clearly, such an oversight proves no point..

Clearly, this is a bs artist of the first rank ... always ready with a string of words to 'prove' that he is right and another is wrong.

Ladies, people like this and Jay above (if they are not indeed the same person) will steal all joy from your lives and deaden your souls if you listen to them. They are telling you to disbelieve the evidence of your own eyes and ears .. will you listen to them?

Do you remember Wormtongue in The Lord of the Rings? People like that are here among us. You remember what Eowyn said to him? "Your words are poison!" ... and turned her back and walked away. She knew better than to waste words on a villain, an enemy of her people.

A good example, for us all.

Jay said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Evia said...

Do you remember Wormtongue in The Lord of the Rings? People like that are here among us. You remember what Eowyn said to him? "Your words are poison!" ...

Arthur, this would be a wonderful retort for bw to say to anyone who's offering that poisonous KoolAid, to just say, "Your words are poison!" and just turn away and leave them there jabbering as she then goes on to carve out a QUALITY life with the QUALITY man of her choice. LOVE it!

Evia said...

And BTW, Aimee, Welcome back--you were certainly missed!

Evia said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Aimee said...

PioneerValleyWoman said...
Shecodes' blog, others might have addressed this, but she is thinking of a black women's movement...Check her most recent two posts....

http://www.blackwomenvote.blogspot.com/
___________________________________

Hey PVW! Thanks for the link to Shecodes's blog--it's fabulous, and I definitely plan to link to it--great stuff there!

Aimee said...

arthur said...

Clearly, this is a bs artist of the first rank ... always ready with a string of words to 'prove' that he is right and another is wrong.

Ladies, people like this and Jay above (if they are not indeed the same person) will steal all joy from your lives and deaden your souls if you listen to them. They are telling you to disbelieve the evidence of your own eyes and ears .. will you listen to them?

Do you remember Wormtongue in The Lord of the Rings? People like that are here among us. You remember what Eowyn said to him? "Your words are poison!" ... and turned her back and walked away. She knew better than to waste words on a villain, an enemy of her people.

A good example, for us all.
___________________________________

Evia and Halima warn about this very tendency all the time. I'm glad you pointed it out--he seems as clear as glass, but it's important sometimes to make sure we can all see EXACTLY the game somebody's playing.

Aimee said...

Jay said...

I can only answer for myself that I certainly adore the white man that I am married to.

You seem to feel rather capable of answering for over 17 million African American men. Why stop there?


Huh? I'm not "answering" for them, just pointing out what I and every other sentient being on the planet has observed--that Western BM generally prefer paler skinned, straighter haired, keener featured, "whiter" women. As a BW, I have observed this all my life, primarily because it has been called to my attention by other black people for as long as I can remember; I have less insight into the preferences of those other than myself, so I can't make the same observations about their preferences to the same degree of sureness.

In terms of BW, if we collectively "adore" WM, I haven't seen any evidence of it, though I am heartened to see greater willingness on our part to recognize white and other non-black men who are attractive and worthwhile, as well as more BW displaying more consistent standards of worthiness across the board for ALL the men who enter our lives. I think this is GREAT, and I am doing everything in my power to support this wonderful trend.

And Arthur, I've seen several posts from you in the past. You seem to be one of those old school "divide and conquer" type white men who seek to promote discord within the black community by trying to pit us against each other. To me, that is the worst kind of racism. I know that you sit behind your computer laughing your head off at what you perceive as a comical gender war in the black community and your perception that you can come in anytime and add fuel to it.

Do you sit behind your computer and laugh at the discord you TRY and promote here? Considering that Arthur is almost always positive in his postings, while you have been consistently angry and argumentative in yours, exactly WHO is attempting to fuel "discord"?

PioneerValleyWoman said...

Hey PVW! Thanks for the link to Shecodes's blog--it's fabulous, and I definitely plan to link to it--great stuff there!

My reply:

You're welcome; she is thinking about some projects where sisters with legal backgrounds might be able to contribute...

arthur said...

.. And Arthur, I've seen several posts from you in the past. You seem to be one of those old school "divide and conquer" type white men who seek to promote discord within the black community by trying to pit us against each other. To me, that is the worst kind of racism..

Buzz off.

Jay said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

hit delete, ignore...

Miss Pinky said...

"hit delete, ignore..."

___________________________________

LOL...right, right.

Aimee said...

Jay said...

Huh? I'm not "answering" for them, just pointing out what I and every other sentient being on the planet has observed--that Western BM generally prefer paler skinned, straighter haired, keener featured, "whiter" women.

First of all, you said "white" women. The women you describe above are not white.


Okay.

Sandra77 said...

Ladies and Gentlemen: Jay and Anonymous are fools of the first order - ignore them. "He who knows not, and knows not that he knows not, he is a fool - shun him" (God's words, not mine).

Anonymous said...

"But whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire." (Matthew 5:22)

Aimee said...

Anonymous said...
"But whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire." (Matthew 5:22)

While it's kind of you to share the Word with us, I'm not sure what this particular Scripture has to do with the subject at hand (conflicts between BM and WW, and BW's need to stake out our own role and protect our own interests in between such conflicts). Nevertheless, thanks for sharing!

Anonymous said...

Sorry. Sandra77 took us off topic.

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

If Halima posts or does not post on the Eliot Spitzer situation, what does that have to do with what is happening here?

Selena said...

Anonymous March 10, 2008 8:53 PM:

I wonder what people like Halima will do to spin the Elliott Spitzer fall. Here we have a well to do white man who has demonstrated (DBR) behavior.

The ironic thing to people like Halima is that his replacement is a black family man. Meet the next NY governor.
__________________________________

Um, I don't know. Maybe she'll spin it the same way the bc spins stories about Mayor Kwame Kilpatrick, Former Mayor Marion Barry, Kobe Bryant, Magic Johnson, Eric Benet, Lionel Richie, Rick Fox, Eddie Murphy, Snoop Dogg, O.J. Simpson, Puffy/Sean Combs, Shaq....

Sandra77 said...

Anonymous - love your act of cowardice by blaming your off topic post on me - LOL. You're a true stand-up guy/gal!

Sandra77 said...

Re Anonymous' Eliot Spitzer comment: Aimee, these trolls are truly obsessed with you, Halima and Evia! They not only "scour and scrub" everything you all write, but they're already trying to scrub what you haven't written - they're ready to make something up and start something where nothing exists!

Aimee said...

Sandra77 said...

Re Anonymous' Eliot Spitzer comment: Aimee, these trolls are truly obsessed with you, Halima and Evia! They not only "scour and scrub" everything you all write, but they're already trying to scrub what you haven't written - they're ready to make something up and start something where nothing exists!

Bizarre, isn't it? The sad thing is that it shows how clearly they just don't "get it," no matter how many time it's made clear: the point is not "WM good/BM bad," so there would be nothing for Halima to "spin" in the Eliot Spitzer story. The point is for BW to be the best that they can be, and to accordingly choose the best among men, regardless of where such men are found--period. The Jays of the world are trapped in a mentality in which an IRR can only have one motivation--black self-hatred--and are obsessively fearful of the idea of facing direct competition with WM for the best BW--a competition that they fear they can't win.

They can't understand that we aren't asking them to compete with WM--that we frankly aren't asking them to do anything at all. We see them for what they are and are done with them. We're only sharing with each other the opportunities that are available to us to build the best possible lives for ourselves, which necessarily also involves warning each other as well of the pitfalls to avoid. Jay and his ilk=pitfalls. Does an Eliot Spitzer-type=a pitfall? Sure, but luckily, he is being exposed as such everywhere from the front page of the NYT to the WSJ to Faux News as we speak. Our mainstream society has a vested interest in warning WW of the type of man to avoid, no matter how high his status, rather than blaming WW for such men's behavior. I have yet to see a story about how "DBR" Mrs. Spitzer must be, or how she should have chosen a better man--only laments about how cruel and destructive Governor Spitzer's behavior has been to his wife and children. Unfortunately, the mainstream could care less about warning BW about such wolves in sheeps clothing, so we have to warn each other.

Jay said...
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Jay said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
LaReinaCobre said...
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Aimee said...

Jay said...

Other posters resort to argumentum ad hominem. One poster quotes Scripture related to her name calling, yet when another poster quotes Scripture in order to throw her name calling right back in her face, you address the person responding to her as opposed to addressing her original deviation from the topic (which was to make personal attacks). How does this represent your character? How does this represent your objectivity? Is this how you are going to represent yourself in a court of law?

What it represents is that this is my blog and I respond to the posts on it as I see fit. I am not an umpire, nor do I claim to be "objective." I very much have a point of view, and I have never hidden it for one moment. I don't moderate comments here, and I have very few "rules" for posting--I have certainly let you have your say, despite the fact that many posters have (quite reasonably) suggested that I needed to ban you and others like you who come here simply to be disruptive. For the time being at least, I stand by the belief that the best disinfectant is sunshine, though I do acknowledge the frustration of other readers, and respect their opinion on the issue.

In terms of my conduct as a professional, I let my professional achievements speak for themselves, to my clients and colleagues. I hardly need to convince you of my competence.

The only racial subgroup who at least attempt to form an organized movement to degrade their own opposite gender are black American women (and Halima who is not American).

Is that right? How are you defining "an organized movement to degrade their own opposite gender"? Is it defined by the number of homicides committed by one group against the other? The number of rapes? The number of batteries? The number of burglaries and thefts? The number of children left to the other's sole support? Or solely by the number of blogs where these facts are pointed out?

What degrades DBRBM is their own conduct: towards BW, black children, AND other BM. They don't require a "movement" to degrade them, nor are they "our own." You claim them if you want--I know way too many decent BM to identify with predators and be manipulated into shamefaced silence about their predations. You can go run that game somewhere else.

How does this look to non-black people? Do you realize that they are sitting around saying that black people are so fu**ed up that they can't even stand each other? Do you realize that when white people criticize and insult blacks, they are not gender specific? They are targeting both genders of black people.

Do YOU realize that it is YOU who are clearly obsessed with white people and what they think, even as you claim that is "we" (this "cabal" of bloggers you imagine plotting together against BM) who supposedly uncritically adore them? My focus is on BW and those who love us and have our best interests at heart--period. If others, like you, read this blog as a statement that "black people can't stand each other," that misinterpretation reflects the prejudices they bought here, not the substance of what they find here. I express love for black people constantly on this blog--but it is love for black women, which I know you are not used to seeing. As my post notes, woman is supposed to = white, black is supposed to = men, and BW is supposed = invisible. Well, not here.

White people are sitting back laughing at us when they read such blogs as this or Tired Black Man or any of the other areas where one black gender trashes the other black gender. They laugh because it is a joke. They laugh because they will never replace their cherished white women with you despite you begging them to do so. They laugh because this whole thing is a joke just like so many things that come out of the black community.

Again--I don't cower in fear of expressing the truth as I see it "cause de white folks might hear." Why should I care if some ignorant white person "laughs" at this blog? It isn't designed for fools of any race, and their laughter doesn't have some special power to intimidate ME into silence because they're white--that's YOUR issue.

As for someone replacing their "cherished white woman" with me, I don't need that, thank you--I'm very happy with the man I have, and I encourage the sisters here to find men who are equally compatible with, and worthy of, THEM--and if they haven't already, they will, without having to beg anybody. The MANY sisters here who are already happily married/partnered makes it clear that when you stop skulking around, worrying about who might be laughing at you, and value yourself and your own life to the fullest, you find your contentment. You might want to try it yourself.

daphne said...

I don't know what Jay's ultimate stance is on IRR, but I think he asks fair and reasonable questions.

How you pose questions and challenge opinions is as important as the questions themselves. From the jump - he dismissed Aimee's post, calling it baseless rhetoric and referring to angry black women. So am I to understand that the responses to him are the only ones unreasonable and unfair? Granted, two wrongs don't make a right. On the other hand, if you're gonna come out swinging, be ready to fight, I say.

LaReinaCobre said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
daphne said...

You might want to head over to the blog Black Women Vote and check out The Black Women's Agenda to get an idea of specifics.

http://blackwomenvote.blogspot.com/

LaReinaCobre said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Aimee said...

LaReinaCobre said...

Maybe I'm just a little frustrated because the question Jay asked that I was most interested in seeing answered never was. " What exactly do black women specifically and black women ALONE need?"

I didn't reply to that question, because I never made a claim that BW and BW specifically and ALONE need anything--my concern is what BW and BW specifically and ALONE should be focusing on as group in securing for THEMSELVES. I don't doubt for a minute that every interest I pointed to are shared by many other groups; I never stated that BW were the only ones who had these problems or who should work on resolving them.

My point is that all too often, our work in resolving these problems in the past has devolved to the benefit of others. We certainly share the problem of underrepresentation in the political system with BM and WW, but both BM and WW are represented in far greater numbers in elected offices and organized political parties than are BW. Certainly we share poorer access to health care and poor health outcomes with BM--but it is BW who are being diagnosed with HIV at higher rates than any other demographic group in this country. Perhaps you do not see these differing outcomes as requiring differing efforts and a seperate organizing focus, but I do, and that was the thesis that I was positing. You are always free to disagree, but if you are anyone else asserts that my opinions are "baseless rhetoric," I will defend them. I'm sure you have the capacity to understand that.

gatamala said...

Maybe I'm just a little frustrated because the question Jay asked that I was most interested in seeing answered never was. " What exactly do black women specifically and black women ALONE need?"


Welcome lare.

I was actually freaked out reading your statement. Consider it this way.

Do black folks have special needs/concerns?

Do women have special needs/concerns?

Why would black women not have special needs that address not just either/or but the INTERSECTIONALITY of those needs.

Jay's question rendered not just black women's needs (which may/may not overlap with black men/white women) invisible, but black women invisible as well. It seems innocent. But it is really an insidious way of silencing black women (kinda like a white guy who thinks affirmative action is special treatment for blacks). They don't want to talk about racism or sexism b/c it makes them [white men] "feel" bad. Black men don't want to talk about sexism or maltreatment of black women b/c it makes them "feel" bad or look bad to "others" (as if the world is blind).

We are not black men w/o dicks or white women with dark skin.

Far too long our interests have been ignored and our numbers co-opted to further someone else's agenda.

That tragic study on STDs that just came out is the latest "need" that should be addressed.

Why are the numbers so high?
What type of education do these women need? This includes family socialization and not just formal education.
How does poverty intersect with their needs?
Who's giving them these diseases (guess who, guess who)? How old is he/are they?
Has there been a study of STDs regarding the comparable male population?

Halima said...

sometimes you would hope some folks would go somewhere else and do their learning!

IR Dating E-Book

LaReinaCobre said...

Aimee - I totally understand your response. I realize now the term "baseless rhetoric" sounds a lot more offensive than I initially read it. As a fellow blogger, I think much of what people blog about is rhetoric, and much of it opinion-based (maybe not baseless, but often based on experience, not factual data). That's just how I see the nature of (most) blogs. But I don't know Jay or his history here, so if you see him as attacking black women from another angle, you'd know it better than me.

Gatamala - I understand these things about black women. (I've been a black woman my whole life, too.) The problem (or one of them) as I see it is that we are a small minority. In a democracy (more or less). So how do we get what we want (from the majority) given that fact? Or do we focus on our own resources and forget the rest?

Those are some of the meta questions I'm grappling with these days.

PioneerValleyWoman said...

L--

Hi,

If you go to blackwomenvote, you will see some ideas about strategies...

PVW

LaReinaCobre said...

PVW - Thank you; someone told me about BWV recently and I'm participating in the current 'action alert' re Al Sharpton and the NAACP.

gatamala said...

lareinacobre~

you've answered it.

Focus on our own. Try to educate others and call them out when "they" work against us.

Just because it is dark or has a vaj makes it an ally.

Polzoo said...

Hi there,

I read your blog and think you’re a good writer. I would like to invite you to join our new online community at polzoo.com. It is a user generated political editorial and social network. We also choose from amongst our own bloggers to be featured columnists on the front page. I think your voice would be a great addition to our site.

We accept all viewpoints.

Anonymous said...

I stumbled on this blog accidentally and have been fascinated by the perspectives. I am white guy living in the UK and have a family background that was openly hostile to black people in general. My father this is in the 1970's said if I ever brought a black girl home he would throw me out. Fact was i'd never met one, certainly not to talk to. At school there was one black and one indian pupil and that was it until I went to work.

There has been hostility to IR marriages in the UK on both sides, still is in some places. But they are much more prevalent than they used to be. Mostly it seems WM marrying Indian/Sikh women. Not Muslims where the big debate and divide rests at the moment. Forced marriages are a very big topic and there have been a number of high profile murder cases recently where the muslim woman is murdered for failing to comply with her families wishes. If you think this is not a problem in the US you are fooling yourselves.

The comments about boys men being disadvantaged in the education process is something I have read many times and is discussed as much in the UK as it seems to be in the US. I think there are a number of factors that contribute to this. One of the major ones unfortunately is the following that rap artists and american street culture has had in the UK be it black or white that for many boys undermines their connection to education by making it 'uncool'. The other for many black children is the absence of a father figure in the home.

Educated women have been outperforming men at college in most subjects in all western countries except at the very high end of science/maths degree courses for a long time. They generally show greater commitment to study. This advantage however does not always transfer into the workplace.

The problem for many working class( yes we do still have class divides, but please don't think of them like something out of a victorian sopa opera. Its much more subtle and fluid)men in the UK, mostly but not exclusivley white, is that the old manual trades have largely disappeared and the attempts to force non-academic students to study smply does not work. There are few trade apprenticeships any more, and a large amount or what is considered to be low grade in UK terms work is taken up by east europeans, nearly 600,000 of them in the last five years alone. Mostly because British people will not take these jobs.

There are problems with gender feminists(not all feminists) attitudes towards men in general and some women. They often particularly seek to promote victimhood in women and push down those who disagree with them in order to exercise greater control. Victimhood whether giving it or accepting it is not empowering for either.

I have read widely on the history of slavery.But having only visited the US to see friends i'm not going to pretend to any depth of knowledge about current issues.

The fact is that most people marry and have relationships within their peer group. If you are an educated, articulate BW it would seem certainly for the moment that can be quite limiting if you stick to BM only.

Would I marry a BW? Very happily. But surely its about more than that. I would want somebody like my wife. Somebody I can share experiences with, good and bad.

Aimee said...

LaReinaCobre said...
Aimee - I totally understand your response. I realize now the term "baseless rhetoric" sounds a lot more offensive than I initially read it. As a fellow blogger, I think much of what people blog about is rhetoric, and much of it opinion-based (maybe not baseless, but often based on experience, not factual data).

The entire purpose of my blog is to express my opinion, share information, and provide a forum for others to do the same. I think we just have a difference of opinion about tactics, and that's fine. I have come to the conclusion that BW have not been, nor will be, well served by traditional coalition politics, and should instead focus our energies on developing as a distinct and self-sustaining group, rather than continuing to accept "adjunct" status to WW and BM.

That doesn't mean that I think BW shouldn't work with or learn from others; only that we must recognize that when the rubber hits the road, those "others" all too often toss global identities as "women" or "blacks," that are conveniently utilized to achieve substantial gains in our collective names, out the window and quite comfortably claim resources for themselves as WW and BM alone. We need to develop the same flexibility and self-interest.

I can respect that you prefer a different strategy, and I hope you achieve success with your efforts; if the ends are good for BW, I'm all for it.

Anonymous said...

The ironic thing to people like Halima is that his replacement is a black family man. Meet the next NY governor.

I dont think that a blind man could really see to have an affair.

Taylor-Sara said...

Aimee so proud of you! congradulations girl, you are doing your thing. As for this fool I would have deleted him long ago, I just don't have your patience and compassion I guess, but its quite admirable of you to give him so much latitude. Your post was fantastic as usual, keep telling the truth more and more sistas are waking up! Someone once said "Truth crushed to earth shall rise again" and I have found that to be so....

Malacyne said...

After reading thru the comments section, I really get discouraged from all of this. Politics tends to bring out the worse in people :(

Given all the points, disses and counterpoints, where has this gotten us as women, as black woman and as black people? Let's face it, black people embody a certain schizophrenic sort of existance here in the US. Do we have political clout? Yes, but sadly as a community we are not organized and unified to present a viable united front. Do we have monetary wealth that can reach far into the US economy? Yes we do but again for the same reasons above we are not exerting it.

I am uncomfortable with mein of the current comment section. Focus back on the feminist movement and the disenfranchisement that black women feel from it. Back in the day, a woman had no equal protection as a citizen under the civil law. She could not be educated like a man, she was not promoted in business like a man and she certainly wasn't paid like man for equal work. We won't even go into marital issues, reproductive rights and etc... Did all of this effect black women? Yes, it did.

Fast forward 50 years, women are making gains and even out pacing the men in earning degrees. Do women get paid as much as men? Nope, studies and editorials prove this. Does this effect black women? Yes it does.

Now here comes the class conflict: with black women more educated and potentially earning more, what has happened to the black man? In the scope of feminism, he's on his own. Sorry Jay and all the anon's out there, feminism does not take into account that you occupy a significant population of prisons, are in a population that is less likely to graduate from HS, occupy the lowest socio-economic levels of one of the most prosperous country in all the world.

From what I summarize, this was supposed to be about how white women now feel betrayed that we black folks aren't voting for their 'great white hope'. Black people are like everyone else in America. We have our special interests folks as well as our patriots but all in all, many of us still see life through a black perspective.

Anonymous said...

I wonder what people like Halima will do to spin the Elliott Spitzer fall. Here we have a well to do white man who has demonstrated (DBR) behavior.

Dr. Laura gives some insight into his behavior:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23575221/

classical one said...

"Well guess what: I am a black woman. I believe in equality for all, but I unapologetically advocate for the interests of myself and my sisters first and foremost:"

Should we all do this? And what comes first, our race or our gender, or our humanity?

Anonymous said...

c-1, I'm sure you read the rest of Aimee's words in that paragraph and it makes it quite clear why she says this.
As a group neither white men( who've long set things up in their favor) nor WW or Black men are going to advocate for Black women. So who else is there but ourselves? It's pretty much us or nobody. Considering that there is a lot of work to be done it seems a very appropriate that a BW would want to help answer this need.

If you're going to take action in the real world you do need to focus. It doesn't have to mean that you're denying your common humanity or are going to turn into a supremacist.

jay said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

Jay said:
"Also, we must understand that expressing an opinion differs from making an assertion."

We understand that. However, an opinion generally precedes a recommended or preferred course of action ( or non-action). And *may* indicate a certain global belief system. I like to think of the logical consequences of opinions.

I just wanted to add it wouldn't be surprising that men might be uncomfortable with a partner who wants to be an activist for "women's" issues. If that is the case he can always find one who doesn't, not a problem. And no, nobody in this thread specifically said that-but it could be a "logical conclusion" to draw from a certain opinion.

In terms of advocating for BW, what activists are attempting to do ( I think) is correct an obvious imbalance in our society. And This is one crucial area of concern. At least for those affected....

Anonymous said...

Jay:

Again, I ask for a specific example of advocation for black women. Tell me exactly what a particular group would have to do in order to be considered as advocating for black women.

My reply:

Mind boggling--can't even imagine advocacy on behalf of black women?

Wow...Black women are black only and not women. Black women's interests are exactly like black men's. Wow.

check:

www.blackwomenvote.blogger.com for some concrete examples and discussions.

Aimee said...

classical one said...

"Well guess what: I am a black woman. I believe in equality for all, but I unapologetically advocate for the interests of myself and my sisters first and foremost:"

Should we all do this? And what comes first, our race or our gender, or our humanity?


Virtually everyone on the planet who is surviving already DOES this--it's called self-interest, and it is the primary path by which species survive and propagate themselves. One of the few populations of beings you will encounter that all too often DON'T do this is BW.

And since I don't consider my blackness and womanhood somehow separate from my "humanity," I don't think of either coming "before" the other--my point is that it is WW and BM who all too often want BW to make this "choice," because it is in THEIR interest that we do so. You don't seem to see a contradiction between YOUR "humanity" and your self-identification as a "WM who prefers BW," but I am suddenly threatening my OWN humanity by identifying as a BW who first and foremost supports BW?

I certainly hope an intelligent and reasonable person can understand history and objective reality sufficiently to recognize WHY BW need to support each other in this way, and to discern the distinction between such support and supremacist hatred and oppression. If you really do not, then I'm not sure that I am the person to provide you the guidance you need.

Jay said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Ms. Jboogie said...

Congrats on taking the NY bar!! You will forget that it even existed, and as reults time nears, you'll start dreaming about them. Whatever you do, resist the urge to psycho-analyze the bar and discuss it (or reults) with other takers: you will only drive yourself craaaayzay! lol.

I LOVE your blog! Black women's role as both black and female have been largely ignored in this election. The black men who say "vote for a brotha" often forget sexism and male privilege. White women who say "vote for a woman" ignore white privilege and racism. However, I am a staunch Obama supporter because the Clintons have repeatedly injected race where Obama has tried to dodge it. Hillary also seems to espouse (by association and her failure to "reject and denounce") the belief that Barack should "wait his turn," and that to support a black man (or any black person) is somehow wrong, backwards, or another way in which the world has oppressed white women. Clinton and Ferraro seem to suggest that white women have always gotten the short end of the stick and that blacks ascended on the backs of white women. Such revisionist history, delusions of grandeur and faux victimhood are utterly digusting to me as a black woman. We are at a point in history where our votes count (every vote truly counts in this election), making it even more important that we hold elected officials accountable. But, I think we need to clearly articulate what our issues are beyond asking "what's in it for me as a black woman."

Jay said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Aimee said...

Ms. Jboogie said...

Congrats on taking the NY bar!! You will forget that it even existed, and as reults time nears, you'll start dreaming about them. Whatever you do, resist the urge to psycho-analyze the bar and discuss it (or reults) with other takers: you will only drive yourself craaaayzay! lol.

Thanks Ms. Jboogie! One thing I figured out from passing my other bar is that one of the main things that does people in is wringing their hands and obsessing over something that's over and done with and that you can't change anyway. If I'm gonna pass, everything that I can do to make it happen has alreay been done!

I am a staunch Obama supporter because the Clintons have repeatedly injected race where Obama has tried to dodge it. Hillary also seems to espouse (by association and her failure to "reject and denounce") the belief that Barack should "wait his turn," and that to support a black man (or any black person) is somehow wrong, backwards, or another way in which the world has oppressed white women. Clinton and Ferraro seem to suggest that white women have always gotten the short end of the stick and that blacks ascended on the backs of white women. Such revisionist history, delusions of grandeur and faux victimhood are utterly digusting to me as a black woman. We are at a point in history where our votes count (every vote truly counts in this election), making it even more important that we hold elected officials accountable. But, I think we need to clearly articulate what our issues are beyond asking "what's in it for me as a black woman."

I certainly have no problem with BW supporting Obama (or anyone else) if they prefer him as a candidate. Nor am I suggesting that anyone vote SOLEY on the basis of what's in it for them as a BW; my point is that if a candidate has offered you NOTHING as a BW, then you should be asking YOURSELF why you are supporting them.

In terms of clearly articulating what our issues are, I think that I and others have repeatedly done so; but my goal is not to attempt to occupy the field in that role--I welcome other sisters to add their two cents in terms of what they see as our most important collective issues, and what candidates they see as effectively addressing those issues, and thus deserving our support.

Ms. Jboogie said...

Jay,

In answer to your question about examples of issues that are important to black women:

- the rise in STDs among teens (particularly minority teens)

- high school drop out rates

- unequal pay for the same jobs performed (black women trail everyone - black men, white men, white women)

- healthcare (rise of AIDS in the black community - particularly among black women; the fact that black women are diagnosed later and more likely to die from cancer and most other illnesses; the disparate treatment that is oftentimes intertwined with class and economics)

- civil rights issues; issues relating to the criminal justice system and reforms in this area;

- predatory lending and sub-prime loans, whoch disproportionately affect minorities.

While it is true that many of these issues also affect whites and often have as much to do with class as with race, they tend to affect blacks on a much larger scale.

Addressing these issues requires a creative and multi-pronged approach: These issues can be addressed via changes in laws, policy initiatives, funding to community groups, appointment of judges, etc. But, we also need to remember that the government can't do everything. We've got alot of work to do on our own.

Figuring out what plans each of the candidates has for dealing with these issues is key. The aforementioned issues narrow the playing field of candidates for me, beacuse there are some candidates for whom these issues are not a priority; they are not even on their radar. Smoking out some vague idea of terrorism is all they seem to care about, while kids over here get poisoned by toys and medications float around in our water supply.

Anonymous said...

Jay. You are a loud-mouthed stupid jerk unworthy of a beautiful Black women. Stick to your WW.

Anonymous said...

Aimee, congratulations on passing, and welcome back. You deserve a big BRAVO for that, so here it is, BRAVO!


With that said. I must say that I am extremely disappointed with how you responded to that creep Jay in your last response to him. He basically tore BW apart and insulted BW in the worst way possible, ands you seemed to be trying to just have a civil debate with someone who was obviously not interested in it, only in insulting BW. Creeps like him need to get what they put out against BW thrown right back at them with equal vigor.


Then in response to that comment about you knowing too many "decent" BM, well if there were so many "decent" BM out there, then BW would not be in the pickle they are in now, with a 70% single rate, and getting poisened with ever-increasing rates of HIV by you-know-who, and the million other things that you-know-who is subjecting BW to.


I say all of the with all due respect, and no intention at all of offending you. You are a warrior for BW, and that is what really matters, I just think that for this instance the gloves needed to come off, and that you need to be a little more realistic about the nature of certain people.

Take care, and keep up the fight.


I love you.

J said...

"I looked at the "black woman's agenda" part and saw something that one poster correctly described as "general and inclusive". In other words, that "agenda" is shared by practically every other sub-group and is very non-specific. "We want better education for our children". That demand is old as dirt."

This comment is a bit naive. It almost seems as if you are playing 'slow' so as to try to minimalize Black women's need to address their interests as a separate group. Unless you feel that no other sub-group, such as...oh I don't know, Black men, have need for any specific agendas that address their problems solely then this comment is silly.

Because BW not only face racial discrimination but sexism on top of that all of our issues cannot be combined with that of Black men, because of course they do not experience sexism, and they cannot all be combined with White women because they of course do not experience sexism. Now what we have left are other minority women who do experience racism and sexism as well, but it goes without saying that the racism faced for being Black is quite different (I won't say its harder even though I believe it is because I don't want to get into a side argument) than the racism a Hispanic, Asian, or Indian woman might face.

This is why some kind of conglomerate 'human agenda' that you seem to be suggesting cannot simply be shared amongst all sub-groups because not all subgroups 1. face the same type of prejudice 2. have the same types of roadblocks ahead of them necessary to fix their problems.

gatamala said...

^^don't

[previous comment]

Aimee said...

Anonymous said...

I must say that I am extremely disappointed with how you responded to that creep Jay in your last response to him. He basically tore BW apart and insulted BW in the worst way possible, ands you seemed to be trying to just have a civil debate with someone who was obviously not interested in it, only in insulting BW. Creeps like him need to get what they put out against BW thrown right back at them with equal vigor.

As I've said, I do understand the frustration of many readers with the Jays and his ilk who come here just to be disruptive. But, as I'm sure you've noticed, there was at least one sister here who seemed to find merit in his claims. Granted, no matter how transparently provocative a person is, someone will insist that they are adding something of value; but my larger goal in responding or not responding to such provocations is less to address the attempted manipulation, than to reiterate the principles that underlie what I am trying to communicate, and to give others the opportunity to do the same.

The point of a Jay is to distract sisters from our focus on ourselves, and redirect our energies in his direction--to attempt to take control of a conversation that is not about him, and MAKE it about him. And lets face it--a lot of sisters share his belief that BW have no distinct interests, whether they realize it or not, which is why they are uncomfortable with an explicit statement by another BW that advocates self-interest.

We are not supposed to be self-interested--the very idea is absurd, alien, impossible: what possible interests can WE have? What possible RIGHT can we have to puruse our self-interests? Can you imagine these questions even being asked of anyone else? But it is asked of BW, even by other BW.

To me Jay is just a tool, an illustration, to be utilized here. Too many sisters believe that as long as they avoid interpersonal interaction with DBRBM, that they have completely neutralized the threat they represent to our lives and well-being. The very fact that he and others like him come back to this and other forums that they claim to have no interest in repeatedly, and more importantly, actively attempt to influence our thinking and discourse, makes it clear that their goal is not simply to find yet another babymama on a personal level.

It is to keep BW generally psychologically bound to them, convinced that we have no options other than them, (you can't possibly compete with the "cherished WW"!) content with crumbs when we deserve a feast.

Then in response to that comment about you knowing too many "decent" BM, well if there were so many "decent" BM out there, then BW would not be in the pickle they are in now, with a 70% single rate, and getting poisened with ever-increasing rates of HIV by you-know-who, and the million other things that you-know-who is subjecting BW to.

But I personally DO know many decent BM--not only in my own immediate family, but among my friends, colleagues, husbands of friends, acquaintances. I think the Jays try to normalize DBRism among BM in order to justify their own inadequacies, but the reality is that there are plenty of decent BM. That doesn't mean that on a purely demographic level, there are enough of such BM to marry/partner with all the similarly-situated BW, or, for that matter, BW should feel restricted to searching for such men like a needle in a haystack, simply because they exist (or vice-versa).

My main concern is with the BW who think they are being "loyal" by passing up decent NON-BM in order to be with "nothing but a BM"--even a worthless BM. These are the BW being poisoned as you describe it, not because there are NO good BM, but because the world is full of too many good men to settle for anything less--ever. I want the sisters who are beginning to wake up and realize that there are plenty of men out there ready and willing to cherish and adore them too, to have both a haven, AND a window on the outside world, and the people who still want to keep them in their "place," as the mules of the world. I say let's expose such types for the enemies that they are--even if it means we have to listen to them spew a little of their bile.

Sandra77 said...

We should all thank Jay for educating us. Apparently there is only one POV in the world - that is the human POV. Apparently BW cannot have issues that differ from BM. Following that logic, WW can't have any issues that differ from WM. Extending that logic, since they're all men, BM can't have issues that differ from WM and since they're all women, BW can't have issues that differ from WW. Perhaps this will be true in heaven, but we're not there yet. We're still here on planet earth - not utopia. Show me the groups who do not advocate for their self-interest, and I will show you the groups that are currently feeding at the bottom of the socio-economic and racial hierarchy. Show me the groups that are advocating for their self-interest, and I will show you the groups who are currently basking at the top of the socio-economic and racial hierarchy. This is not an accidental correlation - this is a direct result of advocating on behalf of oneself and one's group.

Anonymous said...

We should all thank Jay for educating us. Apparently there is only one POV in the world - that is the human POV. Apparently BW cannot have issues that differ from BM. Following that logic, WW can't have any issues that differ from WM. Extending that logic, since they're all men, BM can't have issues that differ from WM and since they're all women, BW can't have issues that differ from WW. Perhaps this will be true in heaven, but we're not there yet. We're still here on planet earth - not utopia. Show me the groups who do not advocate for their self-interest, and I will show you the groups that are currently feeding at the bottom of the socio-economic and racial hierarchy. Show me the groups that are advocating for their self-interest, and I will show you the groups who are currently basking at the top of the socio-economic and racial hierarchy. This is not an accidental correlation - this is a direct result of advocating on behalf of oneself and one's group.

THANK YOU SANDRA77.

jay said...
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Aimee said...

Sandra77 said...

We should all thank Jay for educating us. Apparently there is only one POV in the world - that is the human POV. Apparently BW cannot have issues that differ from BM. Following that logic, WW can't have any issues that differ from WM. Extending that logic, since they're all men, BM can't have issues that differ from WM and since they're all women, BW can't have issues that differ from WW.

LOL! Extending that logic even further, presumably no one can have issues that differ from anyone elses, and no one should take individual action to protect their own interests. If other people share the same issues as BW, then BW cannot possibly act as a distinct interest group on their own behalf in order to improve their own conditions vis-a-vis those issues--not without sacrificing our "humanity." We should instead continue doing the scut work of all these fine "liberation movements," and continue to get left holding the bag when it's time to hand out the spoils of victory that result from the struggles that we all supposedly "share and share alike." Hmmm . . . I think not.

classical one said...

I would never say that black women should not be sticking up for themselves and yes your right, white people do the same thing. Yet, our inability to reach out to others based on superficial differences is the downfall of humanity. It's no small wonder that multicultural countries are best by racial turmoil, considering everything becomes identity politics; perhaps its something that humans are incapable of avoiding.

Aimee said...

classical one said...

I would never say that black women should not be sticking up for themselves and yes your right, white people do the same thing. Yet, our inability to reach out to others based on superficial differences is the downfall of humanity. It's no small wonder that multicultural countries are best by racial turmoil, considering everything becomes identity politics; perhaps its something that humans are incapable of avoiding.

First of all, while multiracial socities certainly experience racial turmoil, ALL societies experience some kind of conflict--large groups of people living together and competing for scarce resources guarantees that.

Secondly, I think it's important to distinguish between "identity politics" as a cause of such conflict vs. a result. It is not as if the ante-bellum South, for instance, existed in racial harmony because of a lack of identity politics--certainly not because of a lack of competing identity politics. I don't think the problem in our society is the embrace of identity politics--look at Barack Obama, who has made a career out of rejecting such politics: he STILL has to get up and make a speech reassuring whites because of opinions expressed by a supporter, while Gerry Ferraro can defiantly insist that she's and Hilary are the actual "victims" of racism without being seriously questioned on this absurd stance by the MSM. Was the problem Obama's "identity politics," or his perceived identity?

There are certainly those who believe that the investment of people in separate identities undermines their ability to live harmoniously with those of different identities. But what distinguishes people who live in harmony from those who don't isn't their homogeneity; it's their mutual respect and investment in one another's humanity and collective well-being. You don't have to see everyone as all "alike" in order to still see us all as worthy and human.

Jay said...
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classical one said...

" You don't have to see everyone as all "alike" in order to still see us all as worthy and human."

Actually you won't see anyone as all alike anywhere on the planet. Okay, look at Obama's speech yesterday, there was someone going be on identity politics. Now, look at the remarks of Ferraro and Pastor Wright, two people embracing identity politics.

There is nothing wrong with embracing your identity, as long as you don't use it to demonize others. You can be proud of your European heritage and not be David Duke and you can be proud of your African heritage and not be Farrakhan. However, too many people use identity politics to bring out the worst in themselves and others, that's the only point I was trying to make.

Siditty said...

I came back, and after reading the comments to this post, I feel conflicted. I don't know what Jay's ultimate stance is on IRR, but I think he asks fair and reasonable questions. To see the unreasoned and unfair responses to him makes me cringe.

lareinacobre:

I don't know Jay's history, but I share your sentiments as well.

-----

Wow...Black women are black only and not women. Black women's interests are exactly like black men's. Wow.


I want to just say I am catching this conversation on the tail end, so if I jump the gun I apologize in advance.

Anon:

Not all black women's interest are exactly the same either. Are we to say we are one big monolithic group, focused on group think, and everyone who does not think as we do black women included, no longer a part of the group?

I honestly think the biggest fall of the black community is that there is too much group think, and not enough allowance for individualism. Anything outside the parameters of blackness is seen as a negative, or a way to distance yourself from black people.

-----

Ms. JBoogie:

All those are valid examples of issues that affect black women, but don't these same issues affect black men, hispanics, and other minorities?

I honestly think that if minorities of all hues where to get rid of their elitism or concern for their hierarchy on the totem pole in American society and face these issues in unity, there would be significant change. The question is, how do we do that, and can it be done :)

-----

Yet, our inability to reach out to others based on superficial differences is the downfall of humanity.

I wholeheartedly agree!!!! I think that sometimes, not every time, but sometimes self interest gets put ahead of common sense and then you get the "crab in the barrel" mentality. It is the for us or against us mindset that has held back the black community for many years. Yes, as black women we do need to look out for own on self interest? But what exactly is that shared self interest, and how does it differ from others?

Anonymous said...
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Aimee said...

classical one said...

too many people use identity politics to bring out the worst in themselves and others, that's the only point I was trying to make.

Unfortunately, people can use a variety of conduits to bring out the worst in themselves and others, and I don't tend to see "identity politics" as being inherently more vulnerable to that sort of manipulation than any other kind of politics. Politics is about competition for resources--who gets what--and is thus a process that will inevitably turn ugly at times. People who think they can hide from that ugliness need to avoid politics altogether, not just "identity politics."

Just remember that whether you actively engage in the political process or not, it continues parsing out opportunities and resources, with or without your input. Your choices are whether you will engage the process with integrity, let it turn you ugly as well, or hide from it because that's the easy way out. That's MY only point--the terms of engagement. As I said to LaReinaCobre, there are plenty of terms upon which you can engage, or tune out for that matter, if that's what you prefer. No one is trying to mandate anything for you or anyone else.

Evia said...

We should instead continue doing the scut work of all these fine "liberation movements," and continue to get left holding the bag when it's time to hand out the spoils of victory that result from the struggles that we all supposedly "share and share alike." Hmmm . . . I think not.

Thank you, Aimee! It's to be predicted that when SOME of us bw start talking about promoting and protecting our interests, we start getting lectures from some others about how this is divisive and that we're not sharing. LOL! I wonder whether these same individuals are going to the sexist and racist groups and lecturing them about how divisive they are and about how they're not sharing. LOL!

Or is it that bw have been singled out to be the selfless role models for self-serving others?

Well, I'm not trying to be anyone's role model. I don't plan to be a paragon of virtue while others are pounding me into the dirt and leaving me unprovided for and unprotected. These self-serving others have not historically RECIPROCATED after bw did their scut work and if bw don't remember that and learn that lesson, we will continue to be scut workers who don't get paid. Bw are all too often left holding the empty bag because many bw tend to self-sacrifice to support and defend others and these others don't RECIPROCATE. Bw, historically, have not *demanded* that others reciprocate when we've supported them.

As Mayor Harold Washington said: "I don't have permanent friends or permanent enemies; I have permanent interests."

I will support anyone who CONSISTENTLY *shows and proves* that s/he supports and protects me and my interests because as you've pointed out, we're all competing for scarce resources--good-better-best jobs, good-better-best health care, good-better-best housing, good-better-best mates, etc. So, IMO, the smart thing to do is to constantly watch to see what others are doing for us lately and if they're not supporting "in kind," we need to cut off the support to them.

And to the Anon(s) above who keeps referring to me, keep in mind that I am just one bw who is expressing MY opinions, but let me take this opportunity to thank you and others like you for interjecting my name into so many discussions. That should help me to sell my book of teaching essays that will be available in the not too distant future.

Anonymous said...

"And you can be proud to be a black woman and not be Halima nor Evia."

And who in the Hell said otherwise?

Certainly not Halima or Evia.

Some people hear what they want to hear. Then, have an attitude about something that wasn't even said to begin with. Their true "beef" is with themselves and their own interpretations that they've projected onto others.

-Avid Reader

J said...

I don't get what these human rights activists are trying to get at. I mean what is your solution?

Yes we know that many problems Black women suffer other groups experience as well, but if we are suffering these same problems at higher rates, which we are, and are now and have historically been getting less help from outsiders, which we do, AND if we face more barriers (and more difficult ones at that) to achieve our goals and cure our problems, then why the hell shouldn't we advocate for ourselves? Why does everyone assume that once a Black woman is advocating for herself before others she is somehow denigrating other groups by doing so? Its like whenever a Black woman is concerned it becomes impossible for her to act on her own interest first and foremost without everyone thinking she is up to no good or doing the wrong thing. Unfortunately this only seems to be a concern when it comes to Black women. Black men have had million man marches, did anyone accuse them of being divisive and uncaring of others problems? Back in the days of the Black Power Movement there were even meetings were Black women were not allowed to attend and even if they were they weren't allowed to speak. But no one has ever accused them of being divisive even though their actions give a good damn reason to say so. But the minute Black women say we are going to stand up for ourselves and try to better our situation and the situation of our sisters we are immediately confronted with accusations of being divisive, even when we haven't attempted to silence any other groups but simply said we will put our own interests above theirs. I mean damn can we have SOMETHING? And some people like Jay claim that blogs like these are unnecessary. Well the very fact that every time Black women try to speak on their issues exclusively and try to hammer out ways to fix them we are silenced (or at least that is the attempt) is the exact reason for blogs like this one.

The even worse part is that if we sat around idly and did nothing about our problems we would then be accused of not taking care of ourselves and our families/children. This is how y'all are essentially proving the point of this post. Its like we can't win for losing, especially when it comes to Black men and white women.

Anonymous said...

Aimee, you impressed me with your response. It was thought-provoking and ntelligent as usual. I do not agree with one partm but as I said before, you are a warrior for BW and that is all that matters.

Rock on my queen.

Anonymous said...

J (not that BW-hating fool Jay) I agree with you 100%. A certain group wants to have everything and anything to themselves and themselves only, with invites for their White wives, girlfriends and mistresses, and then when BW want to have something for yourselves, this same group starts crying and whining about how "selfish" that is, and how you are letting da White man divide the Black race. Hmmm, they do not seem to care about dividing the Black race when they are parading their White trophy women in front of BW's faces. Ignore them, and keep on keepin' on for BW. You have my full support.

BW RULE!

Anonymous said...

A smart person on this blog said, "BW can't win for losing when it comes to BM & WW". Well I say that BW need to FORGET both of those spoiled brat crybabies and look out for THEMSELVES first and foremost, while the SMART people who reconize and realize that BW are gold cheer you on and support you!


She carries a whole community on her shoulders with no help, so she can do ANYTHING, I am talking about the BW of course!

Anonymous said...
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Actually said...
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Anonymous said...
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evia said...
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Anonymous said...

"It amazes me the notion that somehow white men are so good, yet white women are so bad. Some of these opinions seem based entirely on emotion based bias as opposed to any degree of logic."

What amazes me is the notion that somehow white women are so good, yet white men are so bad. THIS is the very notion that the so called "bc" (community invested in the interests of BM to the exclusion of BW) has been preaching as gospel since the get go.

Some of these opinions in deed seem to be based entirely on emotion based on bias as opposed to any degree of logic.

Evia said...

Aimee, I did NOT make the following comment. Someone is posting under my name. They have copied my phraseology, etc.

___________________________________
Aimee, my adversaries seem to be on attack mode. This is why it's so crucial for us to demand and defend each other for our best interest. It's a WAR on us -- LOL

I knew this from an early age. I've always kept my exceptional thinking cap on all my life. My blog has served as an underground railroad for hundreds of black women. There are people who can't consume this, they will do anything to discredit my message! It won't work. I will always shield many broken black women under my wing.

I am under attack at the moment, but many will defend my blog, and I will always be Evia! I have and will continue to clear many roads -- and under ground railroads. My supporters know and understand this all too well.

Sandra77 said...

These people are obsessed with BW, keeping BW down as mules for their own uses, and they're obsessed with Halima and Evia (I'm assuming they left Aimee's name out since they're on her blog and were afraid she would delete their post!). What a bunch of sad sacks these various "Anonymous" posters are whose attack dog political role is to invade IR blogs to do their house negro/shoe shining step dance. Do they seriously think their foolish and ill-reasoned rhetoric will fool or convert the kinds of BW who read these blogs?! But Aimee is right - they do serve a purpose. They remind us that how close the enemy is at all times, and that those who on the surface pretend to wish BW well are often, consciously or unconsciously, against us. Some of our enemies are Hitlerian and some are Polyannaish, but in the end both are equally dangerous to the interests of BW, and it's good to be familiar with the reasoning and rhetoric of the enemy.

Sandra77 said...

And to Jay - if you truly want to educate yourself on the unique interests of BW, there is a research tool called the Internet. If you were sincere in wanting an answer to your question, you would have used the Internet for such purpose, instead of doing the "baby bird dance" expecting us to regurgitate knowledge into your waiting beak. Feed yourself. But I suspect you will choose to go hungry rather than admit you're wrong.

Jay said...
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Sandra77 said...

Oh, and while some want to be like Mike and Tiger, I want to be like Evia, Halima and Aimee. Evia may not seek to be a role model, but a role model she is to me! Thank you to all those who risk figurative life and limb to fight the good fight for BW and IR blogs. I think IR bloggers are the hero warriors fending off Al Quaeda and the Taliban!

Dianne said...
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Anonymous said...

How can you say MANY black men, have you made such a deep research that you can say MANY. Have YOU asked MANY BLACK MEN (by the way the black men you hang with are not necessarily a proper presentation of the average black men, as dumb as that in itself is)...we all know the answer to this question...no, no and no. Your entire entry is marked as void since you your premise is baseless.

Sandra77 said...

Jay, you have confirmed your status as a fool. You didn't realize that Aimee's blog wasn't part of the Internet - apparently sarcasm is lost on you. And you researched on the Internet and found info on BW hairstyles - this speaks volumes on the opinion you hold of black women. Fortunately, I don't even have to research on the Internet or elsewhere to learn about you - your obsession with this blog tells us everything we need to know about you. But in Christian charity, I will pity rather than hate you.

Sandra77 said...

Dianne, you are a liar. Please show me one blog on which I have "bad-talked" Evia, Halima or Aimee. You are a liar. And please check your spelling and grammar.

You and others who have to lie in order to try to make your point only prove that you have no point. Get thee behind me, Satan.

Aimee said...

Evia said...

Aimee, I did NOT make the following comment. Someone is posting under my name. They have copied my phraseology, etc.

Okay, this is getting a little creepy here. Folks--we are all adults (I hope). I know other bloggers moderate, so maybe you feel this is the place to say everything you aren't "free" to say elsewhere, but a grown man/woman should be able to moderate THEMSELVES. Please DO not start posting under other posters' names, or launching personality-based attacks rather than focusing on disagreements with opinions. We can continue to disagree while retaining our DIGNITY. And if you can't, just delete your own comment once you've gotten it out of your system, because, otherwise, I will be happy to do it for you. :-)

Anonymous said...

Jay said:

The funny thing is that all I've really done is ask for specific examples of those POLITICAL issues unique to black women. The closest I get is the general answer of black women dealing with a combination of racism and sexism. The problem with this is that both issues are shared. Sexism if an issue for all women and racism is an issue for all minorities. Beyond that, I get a non-answer.

I say:

White people also concern themselves with issues that affect us all. What makes it a "white issue" is where their charity goes. For instance, take violence in schools. Concerned white people are not advocating for reduced violence in black schools as well. They are focused on their communities to reduce violence.

So the issue is not what is a "black women's issue". The women here focus on helping black women overcome whatever issues they face. So they focus on stopping the spread of AIDS to black women, getting back women educated, etc.

Why is that so hard to understand???

Jay said...
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Sandra77 said...

Jay, you'll die before you admit that a woman can have interests that are different from those of a man, won't you? Or is it just that you won't/can't admit that BW can have interests that are different from those of BM? The truth is out there, and you're not telling it.

eviaexposed said...
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Evia said...

This is the real evia this time and OMG!--"evia" has become an urban legend. LOL! Obssession sho nuff! If I were ready to come off vacation, I would definitely choose another name since everytime I come on here now, someone is using my "evia" name or a variation of it. Anyway, this just helps to keep "evia" fresh in folks' minds while I'm on vacation putting together my book.

And as for folks claiming that bw don't have different/separate interests and issues than everybody else--if that's the case, then these other folks should be happy that some of us bw are now advocating for ourselves First and Foremost. IF our issues are the same as theirs, then our advocacy will also help everybody else too--right? LOL! So why the ruckus? They should be thankful. Instead, they're just transparent.

Jay said...
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Jay said...

IF our issues are the same as theirs, then our advocacy will also help everybody else too--right?

This would be a good point if your advocacy had any quality to it, but promoting strife and separatism between the genders within a racial/ethnic group is more destructive than anything.

Anonymous said...

Eviaexposed, Black women do not need some sorry loser like you. Go stick with your lousy weak little White women you little jerk loser.

Anonymous said...

Black men suck. Black women rule.

Anonymous said...

I love Black women.

Anonymous said...

Black women are COOL!

Anonymous said...

Anon from March 20@ 9:11. You must be some frustrated weak pathetic BM or some frustrated weak, pathetic WW, pretending that you are human, which neither one of you are.

BW=good!
WM=good!

BM=bad!
WW=bad!

No run along weak, stupid BM or WW.

Anonymous said...

BW=good!
WM=good!

BM=bad!
WW=bad!


And you = ignorant racist.

Anonymous said...

@ Jay:


Dunbar Village isn't enough evidence of the needs of black women for you?

rebecca said...

The Last Rose of Summer
(1)

Tis the last rose of summer

Left blooming alone;

All her lovely companions

Are faded and gone;

No flower of her kindred,

No rose-bud is nigh,

to reflect back her blushes,

Or give sigh for sigh.

(2)

I'll not leave thee, thou lone one!

To pine on the stem;

Since the lovely are sleeping,

Go, sleep thou with them.

thus kindly I scatter

Thy leaves o'er the bed

Where thy mates of the garden

Lie scentless and dead.
(3)

Soon may I follow,

When friendships decay,

And from Love's shining circle

The gems drop away.

When true hearts lie withered,

And fond ones are flown,

O! who would inhabit

This bleak world alone?

~~~by runescape gold