Monday, March 24, 2008

"White Men Don't Want You!"

While many black women cope with psychological or social hurdles in their path to dating interracially, one of the most potent barriers is the claim that black woman are unattractive, to non-black men and/or to men generally. This claim is generally hurled along two dimensions: (1) that black African characteristics such as kinky hair, dark skin, full lips and broad noses are simply unattractive on women and/or (2) that black women are more prone to obesity and less likely to properly care for themselves physically, and that it is this "self-neglect" that makes black women less attractive than other women.

Historically, the first level of prejudice was most likely to be openly displayed: black women were generally invisible in mainstream culture unless relegated to sexless mammy roles, but when they did appear as in anyway attractive, they were invariably light skinned, with narrower facial features and straighter hair than other black women, a phenomenon that continues to this day, though it is rarely explicitly acknowledged. Within the black community, black people also openly embraced the European standard of beauty, with elite black men almost invariably marrying light-skinned women, and all black women utilizing whatever tools they could find, from lye to skin bleach, to emulate the appearance of those women who were clearly most preferred.
In a post-"black is beautiful"/paper-bag test world, it is considered unacceptable to state openly that one considers blackness ugly. White people fear that making such statements publicly would result in them being called racist, and black people fear that making such claims would result in them being viewed as self-loathing. Unfortunately, merely because people stop saying things aloud does not mean that they have stopped believing them. Thus, a consistent riposte aimed at black women who express an interest in interracial relationships is the threat that non-black men will not find them attractive. The potency of this threat can be measured not only by the absence of black women from most mainstream images of feminine beauty, but even more so by the limited experience that many black women have had with being approached with the same assertiveness by non-black men that they have experienced with black men.

Obviously, the fact that I and many black women like me have happily dated, partnered, and married non-black men makes it clear that there ARE non-black men who find black women attractive, and the fact that so many mixed race people, most of whom are the offspring of black mothers, have existed throughout history is a testimony to the fact that there always have been. Nevertheless, I have been hesitant to write about this issue, even though I have seen it repeatedly come up in posts here and at other blogs. This is primarily because, in many ways I fit neatly within our society's parameters of "conventional beauty": I'm fairly tall, a size 6, with biggish breasts, a small waist, and curvy hips, with smallish, even facial features. Probably more importantly, I went to private, highly desegregated schools for most of my life, and my parents made a point of exposing me to a variety of people and cultures. This has given me a certain "social ease" with a variety of people that may not come naturally to those who have been socialized in more segregated environments, even if they don't have segregated attractions. The result has been that I haven't had a particularly hard time meeting men of different races--picking up on social signals, displaying interests in recognizable ways, shared interests in music and popular culture, etc. What I want from this post is for other sisters to share their own experience on this topic, especially the sisters who have also managed to date men from across the racial spectrum, and believe they have some tips to share with sisters who have the inclination, but aren't sure they know exactly HOW to actually meet the interesting, worthwhile men that they're interested in. Please share!

92 comments:

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
lam said...

"...but even more so by the limited experience that many black women have had with being approached with the same assertiveness by non-black men that they have experienced with black men."

__________________________________

Please, elaborate on this. Thank you.

Great post!

Yemanja said...

Anonymous MMM your comment was very thought provoking. I would say, no matter how non-stereotypically European your looks, there will always be men from all cultures who appreciate them. The key is self-confidence and presentation. As long as you take care of yourself (this doesn't necessarily mean you have to be a size 6), fix yourself up (mentally, spiritually, and physically), and keep it interesting for them, men will be drawn to you. It is up to you to be attuned to the signals; men from different backgrounds may signal differently. You must also leave yourself open to the possibility of meeting men in various locales. Frequent places where a variety of men go. Yes, there will always be some that don't find you attractive, but you might be surprised at how many do.

As for my own experience, I have been approached by and dated men from a wide variety of backgrounds: African (Somali, Eritrean, Ethiopian, Nigerian, Kenyan, S. African, etc.), West Indian (esp. Jamaican, Haitian, and Bajan men), American Jewish men, French and Italian, Hispanic men (Colombian, Cuban, Puerto Rican, Dominican, Nicaraguan, Panamanian, etc.), Caucasian American, and of course African American men.

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Pirouette said...

Hmm...I have struggled with this notion since I was very young.

I grew up in Vermont, the so-called "whitest state in the Union." I was born there and lived there until I was 11. Those years were formative in how I learned to relate to white men. My family was the only black family on the block. I was always the only black child in my classes at school, save for a biracial kid I had no clue how to categorize at the time.

I was called a ni@@er for the first time by a mean older white boy when I was six years old. I was routinely teased, made fun of, and even harassed by white boys while I was growing up. My little white girl friends always had boys crushing on them. There were little white boys I liked too, but I was sure they'd never like me because I was black. I remember going to my 5th grade dance and being completely ignored by the boys.

I learned early on that white boys did not like me, but for some odd reason, I still liked them and preferred them to black boys.

I moved to the south when I was eleven. In middle and high school my attention turned to black boys, but I found that most of them did not pay much attention to me. I’m sure my being quiet and shy contributed to this as well. My long-haired light-skinned friend was a favorite of most of the boys black and white, but I was virtually ignored.

In college it seemed like it was okay to be friends with white guys, but it was not okay to date them. I even know of a white guy who told another (white) girl I was beautiful, but he never made a move. This guy and I used to study together, and I kind of liked him, but mostly regarded him as a friend, because by that time I was convinced that no white guys could ever be interested in me. In college I dated a few black guys, but I’ve always remained attracted to white and other non-black men.

Since grad school, the last two men I dated were Hispanic and white respectively. I’ve have since come to realize that there are many white men who do see black women as attractive. They are just more reticent when it comes to initiating a romantic relationship. They will look, but they won’t make a move. I have experienced this a few times at my church. I know there were a few white men who seemed interested in me, but for some reason, they never took a chance. My last boyfriend, who is white, did take a chance, and I found his boldness so refreshing.

In conclusion, I do believe white men are attracted to black women, but social pressures keep many of them from initiating a romantic relationship with a black woman.

Pirouette said...

"What I want from this post is for other sisters to share their own experience on this topic, especially the sisters who have also managed to date men from across the racial spectrum, and believe they have some tips to share with sisters who have the inclination, but aren't sure they know exactly HOW to actually meet the interesting, worthwhile men that they're interested in. Please share!"

I'm very involved in church, and the church I attend is predominately white. So most men there are white. My church has homegroups, or small groups. These groups meet once a week or Bible study and worship. I try to go to the homegroup and different activities the group participates in. Just last week I went to a Mah Jong game party at a Chinese gift shop. I knew at least two single guys would be there. I went, by myself, had a ball, and had a chance to talk to the guys there. Fun group settings are good ways to get to know single men.

I met my last boyfriend at a diversity meeting at my church. It showed me that he, as a white man, encouraged more ethnic diversity in our church.

These are just examples, and even though they center around my faith, you can easily translate them to other areas of interest.

I say, don't be afraid (and I'm speaking to myself) to do things and go to functions on your own. If your best friend can't go, you go anyway. You never know who you may meet.

Anonymous said...

I learned early on that white boys did not like me, but for some odd reason, I still liked them and preferred them to black boys.

Could you expand on this? Is it that you consider caucasian features (straight hair, fair skin, narrower features, blue eyes, etc.) more attractive than negroid features?

Anonymous said...

I too was always told that white men find deep brown sisters unattractive....NOT TRUE!!! I went to college in upstate Pennsylvania where the ratio of women to men (black) was almost 3 to 1. I was asked out often and consistently by a few of my white male classmates and I always turned them down due to my "girlfriends" telling me white men only wanted us for sex. I transferred to another college and threw caution to the wind. I was asked out again by another guy who eventually ended up being my husband. Unfortunately, we did not last (not because of race!). I am still on the dating scene but I was just asked out at a St. Patty's party. I find that making eye contact and holding it for a second longer than usual lets a man know you are interested. I also smile and say hello to everyone. Interesting aside, I have a rhodesian ridgeback and you would be amazed at how many men come up and make conversation with me because of my dog. Who knew?? Physically, I don't feel my looks or physique are particularly Afrocentric. I have large eyes, full lips but consider myself pretty physically fit (size 4-6). As someone wrote earier, you best asset is self confidence.

mendhi said...

Would those of you who are relating some of your past experiences in schools mention the years you were in high school and or college?
I'd just be curious to see if there is a great deal of differences in experiences through time periods.

Anonymous said...

Would those of you who are relating some of your past experiences in schools mention the years you were in high school and or college? I'd just be curious to see if there is a great deal of differences in experiences through time periods.


I posted at March 25, 2008 6:57 PM. I went to college in the mid eighties and I just turned 40.

JaliliMaster said...

To the original poster: I too, wouldn't find you attractive. Not because of your looks (or lack thereof), but because of your lack of self confidence. It is practically jumping out through your words.

Now I'm no talking about overconfidence or arrogance. Just. Simple. Confidence.

I mean, if you don't find yourself attractive, or atleast attractive enough to be loved, what right do you have to expect anyone else to?

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
JaliliMaster said...

To Anonymous,

I apologise. It as not my intention to make you feel this way. It's just that you had a very defeatist attitude to the whole thing, which I found very off putting. You posted on this blog, I gave my opinion. I was unaware that I was not allowed to do that.

Yes, this is a bw blog. But it doesn't mean that you shoul come here and expect to be molly-cuddled. Shouldn't you want to hear the truth?

You admitted that you do, in fact, lack confidence. Me writing that post has atleast let you know that others can see it. If I could sense it from my computer screen, do you not think that others may sense it when they talk to you or even just lay their eyes on you? Is it not possible that that may be the reason why you are hrdly ever approached by members of the opposite sex. For all you know, you may be as gorgeous as ever, but you obviously don't believe it.

The fact that some may have told you that they don't find you all that attractive, and you believed it, yet when a male friend of yours told another friend that he thought you were beautiful, yet you CHOSE to ignore that. Why couldn't you have taken what he said as the truth?

Once again, I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings, but sister, I really don't understand how you can see something wrong with me telling you that you should work on your confidence. You came here for help and support, so why complain when you get it. Or was I supposed to wrap it in pink ribbons so that it would sting less?

Aimee said...

MMM -

Out of respect for your request, I have regretfully deleted your thoughtful and insightful coments. I was very grateful that you were willing to be so honest and openly express what many other BW have only shamefully acknowledged in the past: that they struggle with feelings of lesser attractiveness and feminity vis-a-vis other women, due to the lack of positive images of black female beauty and sexuality in mainstream culture.

Clearly this is not merely an issue of "confidence" or a lack thereof, though it can and does damage the self-confidence of many BW. However, as I noted in mentioning the black power movement, black people are no longer supposed to openly express discomfort with their racial characteristics, even though if you look at our actions, the fact that such discomfort is still common in our community is obvious. In a sense, instead of now teaching our children to be ashamed, we teach them to be ashamed of being ashamed.

I think it would be far more constructive for us, like you, to honestly confront the forces in our society that marginalize our images, and the toll that this takes upon so many BW, rather than simply claiming a pride that we too often do not embody in the treatment of ourselves that we demand. I hope eventually you'll be willing to come back and share more of your thoughts with us.

arthur said...

.. I want .. other sisters to share their own experience on this topic ..

Aimee: though I am well known to not be a bw/sister(!), I think there are some things I can contribute to the general understanding.

For one thing, it is hogwash to think that there are no wm who are (seriously) interested in bw, as dates and mates. As an older wm, I have seen a lot; and I would guess-timate there are 6-7 out of 10 wm who would like to at least date a bw, and an easy 2 out of 10 that would not shy from a serious commitment.

As far as looks go, it is a misconception that colorism is a factor with wm. It is not: If a wm wants want a woman with light skin and long straight hair and euro features, he'll go out with Becky. Also, the hair is not an issue; if a wm has a preference, it is likely for a natural style. But he'll be ok with whatever you want to wear. I personally know two wm who have married a bw (an engineer I worked with, and my oldest son) and they were both dark black, with west african features and natural hair.

MMM - it would be a mistake for you to leave. The 'criticism' that upset you was not meant as such; I think it was meant to suggest that your problem was not your physical appearance, which can be hard to change :), but rather an attitude problem, which can be more easily changed. You really are among friends here.

JaliliMaster said...

Arthur said:

MMM - it would be a mistake for you to leave. The 'criticism' that upset you was not meant as such; I think it was meant to suggest that your problem was not your physical appearance, which can be hard to change :), but rather an attitude problem, which can be more easily changed. You really are among friends here.
-----------------
Exactly. That was my point, but she, for some reason took it as an attack. And I really do think it is sad because instead of her dealing with her issues, she chose to 'run away', even though she has the advantage of anonimity that this blog provides.

Sandra77 said...

Jallimaster, it may not be what you said but how you said it. When I read your original post, my first thought was that what you said (thought probably right) was stated rather harshly to someone who is already sensitive about feeling "unlovely". You may be right, but right is not always correct. I think it will probably help MMM that you restated what you were trying to say and why you said it (i.e., not out of cruelty, but in spirit of helpfullness).

Aimee said...

lam said...

"...but even more so by the limited experience that many black women have had with being approached with the same assertiveness by non-black men that they have experienced with black men."

__________________________________

Please, elaborate on this. Thank you.

Great post!


Thanks lam! I've seen a lot of BW state that they'e simply never been approached by a WM seeking to date them or had a WM express any kind of romantic interest in them. On the other hand, most BW between the ages of 12-50 have had plenty of experience with being approached by BM--from serious, respectful requests for dates to harassing hollering in the streets. I've even had WW and AW state that they have also experienced this greater assertiveness by BM. Probably the group than can relate to it most readily is HW, because very often HM relate to women in a similar sort of "constantly flirtatious" way--throwing out a broad net, and seeing what you pull in, if you will. In my experience, WM and AM are just less likely to approach women in that way, even women of their own race.

Again, these are all generalizations, but I'm only generalizing from my own experience, and the experiences that others have related to me.

Anonymous said...

Hi Aimee,

I have had a couple of brief encounters with white men but I will be able to see this summer what I can do because people will be out and so will I. I am pretty attractive and confident about myself so I am looking forward to it all!

Pamela said...

MMM, I hope you are reading this.

Whether most women want to admit this or not a lot of women gain their self esteem on how they look by how men view them. The issue is not exclusively how men look at them or what comments are made to them. In many cases women watch who men will turn their heads toward. I guarantee you many women when they see several men in a room turn their heads toward a particular gal, those women that are watching the men for the most part are not feeling all that attractive at least for the moment.

This dynamic is compounded for bw. In addition bw face the plethora of disgusting portrayals in the media with the deliberate exclusion of positive ones. Because of the development of technology the past 20-25 years, mainly the Internet and cable/sattelite radio & TV, we are hammered with way more media than before. The more something is repeated the more it is engrained in people.

We also have the reality of many bm that find us disgusting for no other reason but because we are black. Not sure how that got started. That can be extremely painful, especially if you are already convinced that you are not attractive. If men from your own race do not find you attractive in many cases it is hard to believe that men from other races will.

I have not met the person I want to marry at this point. One thing I have found in recent years. If you can scrape up enough nerve to venture out and be yourself you will begin to meet people that will care about you and not beat you up. I walked through a bit of this when I was a part of the bchurch. However I was fortunate enough to have a father that adored me. It made it a lot easier to reject the fools I ran into during those days. I realize that a lot of women did not have that growing up so somehow they will have to develop an accurate view of themselves.

I would encourage anyone that finds themselves struggling with how they look or just with themselves in general to put forth the effort to change their surroundings. Being around the same people that mean you no good will makes things worse for you on the inside. The best decision I made years ago was to quit attending the bchurch. This is where most of my madness happened relating to dating situations. I knew my chances of meeting anyone with some sense were next to none. I have made a lot of wm friends the past few years. Nothing has clicked but I believe it will. The person I get with may be a bm but I have taken the limits off. I no longer assume that wm as a group do not find me attractive. That is just not true. That is probably the case for most if not all bw.

Pamela said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
JaliliMaster said...

Pamela said...
MMM, I hope you are reading this.

Whether most women want to admit this or not a lot of women gain their self esteem on how they look by how men view them. The issue is not exclusively how men look at them or what comments are made to them. In many cases women watch who men will turn their heads toward. I guarantee you many women when they see several men in a room turn their heads toward a particular gal, those women that are watching the men for the most part are not feeling all that attractive at least for the moment.

-------------------
This is going to sound quite harsh, so be prepared.

When making comments, please don't generalise. I don't accept general statements about bm, wm, ww, hm, etc., so I see no reason why I should accept it about bw, even if it is coming from a bw. You made the statement:

'This dynamic is compounded for bw.'

Which bw? You can say 'some', 'many' bw, but don't assume that because you are a bw, your experiences are the same or even similar to other bw.

"In addition bw face the plethora of disgusting portrayals in the media with the deliberate exclusion of positive ones."
"We also have the reality of many bm that find us disgusting for no other reason but because we are black. Not sure how that got started. That can be extremely painful, especially if you are already convinced that you are not attractive. If men from your own race do not find you attractive in many cases it is hard to believe that men from other races will."

You will find other men who are not black, and women as well, who will find bw disgusting bsed solely on the fact that they are black. This has mostly to do with the negative and frankly, disgusting portrayal in media. However, most of these today, are perpetuated by black people. Yes, it may be bm who chose to dress up as women and promote obviously false and very demeaning stereotypes, Eddie Murphy(Norbit, Nutty Professor), Martin Lawrence (Big Momma's House), Tyler Perry (Madea- deny it as much as you want, that nonsense contributes to these stereotypes), and who watches them? BW. Most of their audiences? BW. Whose pockets they get their millions from? BW. So why are we complaining?

If we are not redy to vote/boycott with our dollars, no one will take us seriously. I watched Big Mommas house I when I was little. When BMH II came out, you can bet I didn't put a single dollar in their pocket. If at all I watch any of these films, I'll do it online, where I can see it for free!

I've heard many sisters complain that we are always being portrayed as fat, loud, aggressive etc., on t.v. But is it really a stereotype. I don't know about loud & aggressive, but majority of us ARE fat. So why should they not want to put the norm on t.v.?

If we want to break down stereotypes, but anytime someone comes across us, we only reinforce them, then how much of a stereotype is it? Really.

Pamela said...

I don't know about loud & aggressive, but majority of us ARE fat. So why should they not want to put the norm on t.v.?

JaliliMaster, and I'm being accused of generalizations? How do you know if the majority of bw are fat? Maybe in your world but not in mine.

Aimee said...

JaliliMaster said...

If we want to break down stereotypes, but anytime someone comes across us, we only reinforce them, then how much of a stereotype is it? Really.

Who are "we"?

JaliliMaster said...

Pamela said...
I don't know about loud & aggressive, but majority of us ARE fat. So why should they not want to put the norm on t.v.?

JaliliMaster, and I'm being accused of generalizations? How do you know if the majority of bw are fat? Maybe in your world but not in mine.

------------------
Um, in case you didn't know, majority of Americans, and that includes african-americans ARE overweight. And the highest rate of obesity is amongst black women. Please stop pretending as if you don't already know this. You on the other hand, were making generalised statements about black womens experiences, as if you can speak for every bw. The fact that you and/or your friends (bf friends) may have had a particular experience on more than one occassion does not mean that every other bw has also experienced it.

JaliliMaster said...

Aimee said...
JaliliMaster said...

If we want to break down stereotypes, but anytime someone comes across us, we only reinforce them, then how much of a stereotype is it? Really.

Who are "we"?

---------------
The "we" in that sentence meant black women. I was not saying that EVERY bw reinforce the stereotype, but when, as of late, a large proportion of the ones I come across or even just see on the street do seem to fit into that mold, even I start to question whether what I once thought to be a minority is, in fact, the majority.

I never believed that the majority of bw were overweight. Hell, I never believed that the majority of any group was overweight. So imagine my surprise when it trned out that majority of the western world is (bar France). And the proportion goes higher amongst bw in America. I know weight is a touchy issue, but that is no reason for me to not mention it.

Now, when I argue that we bw, or atleast, majority of us are not loud/aggressive/(insert any other stereotype), and some other black person or even bf accuses me of acting 'white', whatever that means, I begin to question whether what I consider as 'normal' behaviour is not actually the norm. And this is coming from someone who majority of their friends is black. Infact, right now, I cannot even think of any close friend of mine who isn't black.

How am I supposed to expect others (i.e. who are not bw) to believe that that these sort of behaviour and stereotypes being portrayed is just that, stereotypes, when more and more, I see it displayed on the streets, in school, and online. And more importantly, how are little black girls supposed to believe that what she sees on t.v is not true, if everything and everyone else around her says/does/shows otherwise?

Pamela said...

JaliliMaster,

I'm not pretending when I say that the majority of my black friends are not FAT. They look like they are a decent weight. The definition of overweight in a statistic, like you have referenced, is a medical statistic, not what a person looks like. I have never heard a statistic about how people look in being overweight. It is a medical observation. A person may be medically overweight but not look FAT. I know a good number of people that fit this catagory. When I say that most of the bw I know are not overweight I'm talking about those that look good and do not look "FAT". My comments are about being FAT. The majority of bw that I know look NOTHING like the stereotypical portrayals on TV.

You first mentioned that most of them are FAT. Then you say that I should know that most Americans are overweight. The two are different. There are more medically overweight people than those that are considered FAT. I'm only talking about how they look compared to how they are portrayed in the media.

You can be direct without being accusatory. You just want to spew your venom on this blog. You are a troll and I for one will ignore you from now on.

JaliliMaster said...

Ok Pamela, if it makes you happy, then please go ahead and ignore me. I have no time for people who only want to hear what they want to hear. If you post on this blog, I read it and will continue to reply. I am not a troll. I read and post when I feel like.

I've noticed that many times that someone posts something that you don't agree with, you (not you in particular but posters in general) start throwing around accusations such as troll/lurker. Whatever.

I did NOT say that majority of your friends are fat or overweight or whatever other description you have for it. I said majority of westerners were, that includes black women in america. Majority of my friends are not fat, but that doesn't mean that the majority in any other group is not overweight.

And for soem reason, you failed to address the statement I made about you making generalising statments aboutbw experiences.

If you want to ignore me, then by all means go ahead. But don't try to dismiss what I'm saying without offering a decent argument!

Aimee said...

**Sigh** . . . JaliliMaster . . . I have discussed many times the logical fallacy that underlies "you can't expect people not to be racist if they encounter a black person who does (X,Y,Z)."

I don't know what your expectations are, but mine are to be treated with the fairness and dignity I deserve by everyone at all times, regardless of what the person dealing with me has encountered from 10 other BW before me. I would not consider it fair for me to judge a WW I have just met based on the behavior of Paris Hilton or some incompetent junior associate who mucks up a simple research assignment, and I therefore expect the same reasonableness--nothing more, and nothing less.

Nor do I understand how you reconcile the perspective that you shared with MMM--that all she needs is to be more "self-confident"--and the perspective that it is somehow reasonable for people to see loud, angry, fat BW, and to thus believe that this is what BW as a group are. Obviously, "self-confidence" would not be sufficient to overcome what you have described as justifiably held stereotypes, would it? Apparently, what is needed is for all (or most, or more, or some quantum of) BW to be soft-spoken, sweet and slender--right?

Ultimately, I was asking readers to share their individual experiences with meeting and dating non-BM, and to offer advice that they thought would be helpful to others who wanted to broaden their dating horizons, but wearn't sure how. It would be great if you could speak to that question.

JaliliMaster said...

Aimee, yes, the discussion has gone of from what the post was about, but it's not my doing. All I did was reply to MMM's post, and then everything else started.

I do not believe that the existence of stereptypes is an excuse for anyone to be racist. Far from it. My argument, quite simply, as that how can someone who either fits the stereotype or in whose life the said stereotype is the norm, complain about the existence of such stereotypes? The other poster (I can't remember her username) took it as me saying that EVERY single bw fits them, or that majority of evry other bw we all know somehow fits the stereotype.

"Nor do I understand how you reconcile the perspective that you shared with MMM--that all she needs is to be more "self-confident"--and the perspective that it is somehow reasonable for people to see loud, angry, fat BW, and to thus believe that this is what BW as a group are. Obviously, "self-confidence" would not be sufficient to overcome what you have described as justifiably held stereotypes, would it? Apparently, what is needed is for all (or most, or more, or some quantum of) BW to be soft-spoken, sweet and slender--right?"


When I made those comments, they were not related. The one about self-confidence was in reply to the MMM poster. Her problem WAS NOT about bw and stereotypes. It was a personal experience she had. The second one, I'm sure you can read the comments and see how the back-and-forth started, and I don't want to further derail the true intent of this post.

However, it cannot be denied that due to the stereotypes of bw that exists, the dating opportunities of alot of bw may be hampered. Yes, bw, are on average, portrayed as loud, fat, angry etc. I can complain as much as I want, but all I need to do is relate it to the portrayal of asian men on t.v. A large proportion of the am I come across do actually fit into those stereotypes. But I only encounter a small percentag of am in the first place. I always have to ask myself: "Does he actually fit those stereotypes or is it my own hidden prejudices that project them onto him?" Even at that, I know that most am do not fit that mold. Or I, atleast, choose not to believe it, as I choose not to believe that most bw fit into the mold in which they have been painted.

Trying to act as if any stereotype is false, based SOLELY on the fact that it is a stereotype, is not going to change the fact that these stereotypes do exist.

Finally, how am I supposed to combat all these stereotypes, when in the bc, being anything other than these said stereotypes is alot of the time branded as 'acting white'? If it is accepted in the bc, how can I complain about it being accepted anywhere else?

Soie D'or said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

I think people should leave MMM alone. The sister is entitled to her opinions about things. She has probably been hurt very badly by these BM. The poor thing just wants to be loved, like so many other BW. Too bad people want to deny her and BW in general that.


MMM, I hear you and I understand sister. Do not worry sweetie, the BW has friends in this world, people who love her and care about her. We are out here my love.

Phoenix Sun said...

Aimee, I think you are absolutely right about how we are programmed to be ashamed for being ashamed. When you have not had the luxury to be cultivated with a strong sense of self it is not surprising when you lack positive self-esteem later on in life. I realize it such as a taboo to publicly let these types of unpopular/wrong feelings be known. The first step to healing is acknowledgement, no matter how embarrassing, unpopular, and uncomfortable it may be. I hope MMM is at least lurking. I didn't find her comments negative. I guess I interpreted her differently. I saw her as someone who is finally taking the courage to dealing with the issues that are hindering her. Self-confidence is great but I've seen plenty of women who have the worst self-confidence and the men flocked to them because they were physically beautiful.

I managed to start meeting men of all races once I decided to stop thinking from a place of lack. I use to have the mindset of 'what do I have to offer?' when I should have been asking, 'what does he bring to the table that I need or want?’ Once I changed my attitude I ventured off into meeting men. I briefly worked as a temp at a law firm in their library and when my assignment was over, I went out on dates from a white attorney and a black CPA. I met the love of my life at Sotheby's in NYC. Prior to meeting him, I went to dance schools where they would hold dances once a month, I met non-bm there. I also went to events held at the Harvard Club in New York City. Plenty of successful non-bm there as well. I guess what I'm to convey is that I went to places where wm congregate. I stepped out my comfort zone (I know there are bw who are use to such social circles but I wasn't one of them) ventured into their territory. Not every wm is corporate, and I know there is some bw who prefer the more rugged or artistic type of wm. They would have to go to areas and social events where these men socialize. Another possible way to meet them is to broaden your circle of friends and acquaintances of different races. When I was at Columbia University I befriended white and Asian women who had large social circles and with it came a lot of men. At that time I was too shy and came from a place of lack so I never took advantage of it. It's really funny because my man who I met at the auction house works at Columbia as an astrophysicist.

Aimee, I wish you a belated well wishes for taking the bar. I wish you all the best!

JaliliMaster said...

I hope MMM is at least lurking. I didn't find her comments negative. I guess I interpreted her differently. I saw her as someone who is finally taking the courage to dealing with the issues that are hindering her. Self-confidence is great but I've seen plenty of women who have the worst self-confidence and the men flocked to them because they were physically beautiful.
-----------------------
I may have interpreted it wrong, but it seems to me, from the last sentence, that you automatically assume that MMM is lacking in looks. From her original post, it seemed to me that she was lacking in confidence more than anything else, and hence, I simply stated that. People tend to confuse being shy with having no confidence. Not the same thing.

Phoenix Sun said...

You misunderstood my post. It is sometimes believed that no one will find a person attractive because that person lacks the self confidence, and I'm countering that argument because that's not necessarily true. I used beautiful women as an example. I did not imply that MMM was lacking in looks. My example did not apply to her.

You can still have low self-esteem and be able to attract others. The quality of those you attract is another story altogether.

arthur said...

.. You can still have low self-esteem and be able to attract others. The quality of those you attract is another story altogether..

Now that is smart. Not surprised you wound up with a real smart guy.

Anonymous said...

...and all black women utilizing whatever tools they could find, from lye to skin bleach, to emulate the appearance of those women who were clearly most preferred.

Not ALL black women use lye or bleach. I have never had a dark skinned friend who has tried to bleach her skin. A lot of black women wear their hair natural and prefer it that way... especially in NY and other metropolitan areas.

Anonymous said...

Online dating - men will know that you date interacially from your profile and will get a sense of how much you both have in common from your hobbies. That can't happen at a party or other places where it's difficult to connect.

Travel - many many men love dark women. There are plenty in the States, but travel abroad and meeting men from other countries has upped my confidence.

Confidence is a big issue for dark women. If you can't see your own beauty, don't expect anyone else to. Men always respond to confident, feminine women. Don't be afraid of you.

I actually think dark women have an advantage in the IR arena (relative to lighter BW) because we are darker and often have more unusual features. I'm not afraid of this.

I definitely feel more appreciated by educated white men than I do by educated black men. Again, not afraid. Though I should mention that aside from the dark skin, other things about me are conventially beautiful (tall, thin).

Anonymous said...

conventionally. duh.

Ms CPA said...

I think the general approach of getting out of the black comfort zone is an excellent way to meet non-bm. The options offered by phoenix sun and anonymous are on point. I also think it's important to recognize that wm have a less overt way of expressing interest than bm do. When was the last time you heard a wm shout, "Hey baby, can I get some of that?" I am exaggerating (sort of) to make a point.

Selena said...

I think the general approach of getting out of the black comfort zone is an excellent way to meet non-bm. The options offered by phoenix sun and anonymous are on point. I also think it's important to recognize that wm have a less overt way of expressing interest than bm do. When was the last time you heard a wm shout, "Hey baby, can I get some of that?" I am exaggerating (sort of) to make a point.


Yep TA. Its called having a some freaking manners and home-training.

La ~ msviswan said...

I know for a fact that white men do find black women desirable. I would never deny that. Personally, Arab and black/white Hispanic men always approach me, but never white men for some reason. But that's just my case.

Now, I've noticed more black women in my area are being open to non-black/white men. However, white men don't seem to assimilate even in the Caribbean the way black men usually do in white populated areas. Then again, black men in the Caribbean would go out to the "white zones" to meet white women. As you know that's what men do, they tend to be the ones to venture out for something they want.

Therefore, many black women in the area may not feel like they're being "pursued" by white men, so they think twice about even putting themselves in these areas where they may not be wanted. I think this notion may be similar with many black women on the mainland. I don't know if it's because black men are more brazen or because white men are less interested.

I'm trying to be impartial. I'm also not trying to be negative, but it's something that I'm noticing in comparison. I'm going to do more research on this.

Anonymous said...

knockoutchick says:

Reading IR blogs can be so painful because you get a real sense of the breadth of the damage that has been done to the self esteem of black women and girls. Sometimes I can't take it and I need a break!

Further I would say it is encouraging to hear from other black women young and old, who have escaped the gauntlet....self esteem intact.

I used to think a couple years ago when I started reading these blogs, that just simply stating what I KNEW to be true would be helpful to the discussion of IR dating. Yet in saying things like "men are attracted to attracive women...regardless of skin color", always seemed to be met with disbelief.

And certainly I know where this comes from...I too was called "black and ugly" by older male relatives for years. And as we know the word "ugly" is always preceded by "black". I have said that before on other blogs, so I know how black women get to that place. But we have to start more and more to speak up when we can and reject this behaviour and thinking to help younger black girls.

We also have to show ourselves to be confident...certainly those that feel it. I eventually grew up to be quite confident. As I have said, I am in many ways conventially attractive, tall thin, slim features, etc. That being said that didn't stop me from hearing the "black and ugly" insult" which by the way, my male relative later told me was only a "joke" and "figure of speech"...that "everybody" used. Because of course no one really meant I was ugly...that was just the way black folks talked.

Ahhhh...I see, so I was of course supposed to know that at 8 years old!

So as bizarre and crazy as the title of this thread is...we all know where these sentiments come from...which is why we are destined to repeat the same words of encouragement again and again and again. Because just because there are those of us here who know their worth and power, there are still many black women out there...hearing that they are attractive to others for the first few times.

I am glad about blogs that put positive messages out for BW, and show there are some of us living healthy lives, in healthy relationships, that feel good about ourselves and who have men that care about us.

We only have ourselves to depend and turn to for support...and you all know that's thr truth.

Peace

Anonymous said...

At this stage in my life, I think it's best to concentrate on the guys that are interested versus the guys who aren't. Everyone should have 'standards', but if a guy is rejected just because he doesn't fit the picture in your head of who you should be dating, you often find yourself missing out on the opportunity to make great acquaintances/or romantic connections. In the dating world, it's hard out here for everybody--compund the misunderstandings, hangups, and missed signals that seem to run rampant in many corners of the the IR dating world and it gets even harder. Here are my humble suggestions for meeting more wm/non-bm:

1. Put yourself in a "target-rich environment". This means going places that you have never gone before, doing things that you have an interest in doing but you can never get any of your black gilfriends to do it with you. Accept that invite to a party that one of your white co-workers is holding. You never know who you may meet or become friends with.

2. Let friends, family, coworkers, etc., know that you date interracially. This will stop them from trying to always fix you up with the only black guy in the room. They know that you have broad dating interests and will "spot" for you if any interesting prospects come up.

3. CONFIDENCE is key. Be proud of who you are today. If you want to lose weight, do it just for yourself and no one else, but in the meantime, dress up to flatter your curves and be confident in the woman you are now. Contrary to popular belief, there are quite a few wm who like their women thick and curvy. If weight isn't your problem, maybe you need to reexamine some of your attitudes and beliefs about yourself so that you know that you are projecting a positive outlook--no matter who you may or may not be dating.

4. Travel--because sometimes guys in your local area can be lame! LOL

Aimee said...

Pirouette said...

I do believe white men are attracted to black women, but social pressures keep many of them from initiating a romantic relationship with a black woman.

I know I'm late in responding Pirouette, but I think this is a very important insight that BW interested in IRRs can't afford to entirely overlook.

We can't forget that there is a persistent social stigma in our culture attached to non-blacks entering IRRs with black people, and generally, only the people whose attraction for those of another race is so powerful that they are willing to ignore that stigma (the largest group of which has been BM) have actively pursued such relationships since they became at least nominally legal.

WM, AM, and HM who are interested in IRRs not only have to be personally strong enough to reject that stigma, but also to reject the additional stigma that specifically excludes BW from the universe of romantically and sexually attractive women who are fit to be long-term partners. The group that has that kind of character is going to be smaller than their numbers in the population at large; but they are out there, and there are more than enough of them to provide a pool of eligible and worthwhile men for equally interested BW. Making the connection is key.

Baiana said...

Hi Aimee. I stumbled across your blog and just wanted to put my 2 cents in. :o)
I am a 24-year-old bw living in Florida, but I grew up in Mississippi. I have always been attracted to all types of men, but as a teenager I was more attracted to wm. Growing up, I was told all types of things about bw, black ppl in general, that were demeaning. White guys told me, “I’d totally date you, if you were white…” “Oh, you’re really pretty, for a black girl…” It wasn’t until I moved away from Mississippi that I encountered wm, hm, and others who were not afraid to show their interest in me as a romantic partner.
My first boyfriend was a hm, but wouldn’t take me home to his parents because I was black. It hurt, because I let him in to my world completely. He met my folks, hung out at my house… but the romance didn’t last because it wasn’t healthy for either one of us, not solely because of the race issue.
I have noticed that many wm do look, and will sometimes comment, but won’t take it any farther, mostly because of the social stigma that you discussed. However, when I started doing Capoeira, I was introduced to a group of men from diverse backgrounds that have no problems showing their interest in bw. (Capoeira is a Brazilian martial art created by Africans who were brought to the country during slavery.) In fact, the majority of romantic relationships I’ve seen in the ‘capoeira world’ are IRR’s. I went to an event in NYC last year and the majority of the men who chatted me up were not black. It’s experiences like those that let me know that there are plenty of non-bm who are more than happy to approach a sister in an honest, respectful way. By the same token, I’ve encountered a lot of no good wm, hm, am, etc. However, I learned that I can’t let the bad experiences hinder me from believing that I am beautiful and worthy of good love from a good man, not matter what his race may be.
Once I put myself out there, tried something new, something different, it opened me up to new experiences, and to non-bm who were more open to dating bw. I had to put myself out there and make the conscious decision to not believe the negative comments from whites, or the lies told about bw by the media, and by our own people. I choose to do what interests me, whether it’s capoeira, or taking a pottery class, or going to a rock concert solo (just did that Monday night, and was approached by wm and bm alike), whatever. In addition, I think that there is a confidence that comes with trying new things. Whenever I get nervous, or I begin to doubt myself, I say, “You know, I had the courage to try/go to XYZ. If I made it this far, I have the ability to handle myself in this situation.” In closing, I would say stay open, pick up a hobby that introduces you to new people, and don’t believe the bs.

Anonymous said...

knockoutchick says:

I think that the dating landscape is changing dramtically as we speak. And ten years from now we will look back at this blog and think..."oh my Lord"!

I think the racial lines that we see and most stigmas about race will continue to fall away.

It will be hard in the coming years for the black community to say "WM don't want you"...when the marriage rate within the black community will have descended to %10-20.

I do see that many older BW...30's, 40's in New York tend to hold these ideas closer because of having grown up with them. Thanksfully many younger BW have broken free.

I have never experienced or heard of a situation in New York where a WM was not open to a BW. It has been my experience WM in this city are open to anything....the same with BM.

Everyone else seems open...it is BW that appear least open to IR dating.

I see WM, BM, etc open to dating all races but few men seeking to commit. I am starting to hear more and more WM complaining relentlessly about WM. My ears are hurting. I guess I take away a hour of pay for theraphy.

So even the idea that WM will sleep with BM but not commit to a relationship, I have found to be untrue because I am seeing WM reluctant to commit to WW as well...even beautiful, young, extremely financially successful WW. It's brutal and I'm hearing it everywhere I go. My city if full of slackers, boys in mens clothing.

It is my experience that the younger generation of WM will date whoever is most convenient.

La ~ msviswan said...

"Everyone else seems open...it is BW that appear least open to IR dating."

This might be true. But the "fear" didn't just manifest itself out of the blue sky, even to this day. I'm just being fair. But I am seeing a little more younger white men with Black women, but just not enough right now. Perhpas more in the near future.

Aimee said...

knockoutchick says:

I see WM, BM, etc open to dating all races but few men seeking to commit. I am starting to hear more and more WM complaining relentlessly about WM [WW?].

Hey knockoutchick!

Found your whole post on target, but I had to comment on this part because I have been noticing this more and more--just this incredible (openly expressed)resentment increasing numbers of WM seem to have towards WW, and the way that resentment drives a resistance to commitment in general.

So much of it is clearly rationalization, by men who feel they deserve access to better "quality" women then the one's who are actually attracted to them, and who are mad that those better "quality" women clearly don't see the potential in THEM.

On the other hand, in places like NY, I do have the prism of my own experience to provide me some insights. I met my husband through friends. He's good-looking, smart, funny, educated, professional--but when we met he drove an older car and didn't dress fashionably (still doesn't). He lived in a modest apartment in a perfectly nice, perfectly safe, perfectly unfashionable and very affordable area of North Jersey (ewww!).

In other words, when I look at many of my single white co-workers, I know they would not have given him the time of day beyond letting him buy them a drink. I saw an honest, decent, frugal catch who shared my values--I knew as soon as I saw his (perfectly maintained) eight-year old car that we would get along just fine. I think many of my white peers would see someone who lacked the shiny things to impress their friends with. Most of my black peers, on the other hand, wouldn't have expected him to look their way at all, but are much more flexible in their requirements for BM.

But the WW definitely have a "type," and they do have a sense of entitlement about their right to a certain lifestyle, that they expect that type to provide.

Generally, that type is:

(1) I-banker/Biglaw partner-track associate/doctor;

(2) Has (preferably owns) nice apartment in "right" area (UES/UWS/Financial District, etc.);

(3) If he has a car, must be foreign luxury of recent vintage;

(4) Well-dressed, or amenable to being dressed by them;

(5) "Generous" (and the ring better make her friends eyes pop out);

(6) Willing to be the sole breadwinner indefinitely post-marriage, while simultaneously maintaining them in the style to which they've become accostomed (i.e., nanny/(unattractive) au pair, shopping trips to Barneys, fashionable co-op or pricey McMansion in Old Westbury, tuition at the Little Red School House, etc.)

Now, are there WW who DON'T think like this? Sure, but very often they aren't as conventionally attractive / glamorous as the ones who do. They usually aren't thin and blonde and tan, and they don't wear much Prada. The women want money, and the men want looks, and everybody's pissed off. And 'round and 'round it goes. Sigh.

But I have to acknowledge La ~ msviswan's point too--usually when I hear these complaints, they are attached to comparisons of domestic WW to foreign ones, or AW or HW. Very rarely do these men mention BW as an option. Granted--these aren't the men I think sensible BW are looking for, but it does reflect the continued operation of a stigma, that I agree is slowly starting to wane.

onyinye said...

So much of it is clearly rationalization, by men who feel they deserve access to better "quality" women then the one's who are actually attracted to them, and who are mad that those better "quality" women clearly don't see the potential in THEM.
__________________________

I tend to agree with Aimee. I met my fiance in a very same manner you did. In fact, there are similarities in the qualities of your husband band and my fiance (lol)... I know mine didn't impress me because he had a nice car and nice clothes-- in fact I recall thinking that on our first date "This guy makes me laugh so much---too bad he has terrible taste in clothes! To ditch or not to ditch" I decided to ride it out for one more date...3 years later...and I couldn't be happier! Someone posted something earlier about whether features played a part in whether white men liked black women? Well, I'm as african as they come :-). I was born in Africa and lived there till family emigrated when I was 11

DiosaNegra1967 said...

Great post! As for my experience, let's just say that I'm pretty danged far from what is considered "conventionally" beautiful or attractive (darker skinned, bespectacled, tattooed, pierced, short & natural hair, wide features)....although I've been told by many WW (odd, innit?) that I'm incredibly beautiful (this was without makeup...go fig).

Also, being bisexual doesn't make this any easier for me either! I've dated my fair share of WM and les/bi WW, HW...so this throws yet another wrench in the cogwheel.

The WM/WW/HW i've dated weren't necessarily aggressive in their approach...usually, it was more like we met each other halfway...

I'm really interested in dating/having a relationship with a les/bi BW, however, those i've met thus far seem overly concerned with the whole "butch/femme" identity....

Hey, i wear lip gloss and can run cable through my apartment! Just sayin'....

I also concur with yemanja...different cultures signal differently. LOL....my friends call me clueless, 'cos it's difficult for me to distinguish whether someone is expressing genuine interest or is just f***ing with my head (which I DON'T like)...

lam said...

I think the main reason why white men are hesitant to approach and possibly date black women is because they often assume that we aren’t interested in them romantically, that has been my experience. Black women have been conditioned by the black community to feel guilty about being attracted to white men (or any non-bm for that matter). Our loyalty is immediately called into question (how could you love the slave master none sense). And don’t forget our public displays on many talk shows; declaring love for only black men. I am sure they have witnessed all of this and they are convinced that we are not interested in them. I don’t know how many times I have heard or been told by wm that they don’t think bw are interested in them romantically. No man wants to be rejected by a woman especially in public, so they are very careful when it comes to us because of the fear that we will reject them.

The black woman and white man interracial relationships are relatively new so, of course, they are going to raise some eyebrows at first but people will get eventually get over it, like they did with other irr. I am sure that black men and white women interracial relationships (the most stigmatize at one time) had their rough start but now no one even bats an eye lash when their seen together and there seems to be very little stigma attached now, as well. The more bw/wm enter into relationships the less people will care. I think the black community will get over it because it will have no other choice in the matter. Black women are moving on.

Anonymous said...

Black women have been conditioned by the black community to feel guilty about being attracted to white men (or any non-bm for that matter).

That's a myth.

Our loyalty is immediately called into question (how could you love the slave master none sense).

Gross exaggeration.

And don’t forget our public displays on many talk shows; declaring love for only black men.

Which is probably them expressing their true feelings.

I am sure they have witnessed all of this and they are convinced that we are not interested in them.

They have also probably observed the bad attitudes.

I don’t know how many times I have heard or been told by wm that they don’t think bw are interested in them romantically.

In general, they are correct.

The black woman and white man interracial relationships are relatively new so,

Actually, the black man and white woman IR are relatively new. White men and black women relationships are quite old.

I am sure that black men and white women interracial relationships (the most stigmatize at one time)

It's actually the most stigmatized today.

had their rough start but now no one even bats an eye lash when their seen together and there seems to be very little stigma attached now, as well.

Wrong.

The more bw/wm enter into relationships the less people will care.

Few people care now.

I think the black community will get over it because it will have no other choice in the matter. Black women are moving on.

Nothing to get over now. And black women are most of the black community.

Anonymous said...

knockoutchick says:

Hey Aimee,

Good to hear from you.

Yes I think the switch has been flipped! Right now I am seeing a free for all knock out battles in the dating arenas in big cities.

Yes indeed I am hearing WW COMPLAINING about WM and the opposite. So I say if we as BW allow ourselves to be stuck in a mindset that there are those who do not want us...or that we can not compete...we will lose.

I do understand the realities of my fellow black sisters who live in very segregated areas or cities. I hope that any young black woman who reads any of the IR blogs and has an opportunity to do so....leave this country IMMEDIATELY and study or work abroad.

This situation we are discussing right here is only going to get worse. As more and more women become educated the divide between men and women will continue to grow. In the past when our grandmothers stayed at home and didn't produce any income in many ways...even a good spirited guy who worked at the IN and OUT burger could have been considered a catch.

Now that women are educated and are travelling in huge numbers, finding a guy smarter, wealthier and more educated man is becoming harder and harder...and that's just for WW. BW couldn't ever ask for that....That's why upwards of 80-90 percent of educated BW are.......(drumroll, please)........SINGLE!

Now both WM and BM complain that women are too demanding. In NY many women who maybe work as a paralegeal and make $75K may not want a man in the same position.....they are seeking a man who has a higher position on the ladder than them. As more and more women move up the economic ladder...how does that work out???? It doesn't!

So many folks are left alone.

Now SOME WW wise up and say...."you know what, I have money so I'll just get a sexy guy that I like! Then they will date and/or marry a black guy working at the IN and OUT burger. It seems like an exciting answer to urban dating woes. I see more and more WW with BM they are supporting. At first I was like WTF!!!! But now I get it.

The classic in NY is the white professional woman and the BM who hasn't made a penny since Clinton was President. But a WW supporting a BM is somehow acceptable.

As all of this shakes out and many WM are left single. I think the question is ...will professional BW date broke down WM :-) Somebody will.......if the Asian immigrant women don't get there first!!!!!

As I have said, most of the white guys I know will date who ever walks through the cafe door first and pays attention to them. The problem is...if he is attractive EVERY woman is looking at him as there are so many more women than men. So men have no incentive to act right. They only time they will man up and "try" to romance or win a woman's heart is when she is waaaaaaaay out of their league as in 10-20 years younger, sexier, buff and beautiful. BM don't believe any woman is out of their league, even if he is an ex-con....working at....(drumroll,please)....the IN and OUT Burger :-) Because if he's handsome a WW might come along and find that sexy and fun...."Oooooh a real criminal, oh my". Don't laugh, I've seen it happen!

I guess I have been lucky in dating, but I have worked at it....yet I have met men of good character who are willing to work hard and have some success. Lord knows ...it ain't easy.

Go to go for now....

Peace

Anonymous said...

I found this on the Afrotoronto blog. Opinions?

http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:g_mvorA4JGIJ:www.afrotoronto.com/Blogs/AfroArticles/2006/09/do-black-women-have-attitude.html

I am a white man who is getting divorced from a black woman. She has the WORST attitude of any woman I have ever met. She managed to do a pretty good job of hiding it before we were married, but she turned it loose after we said our "I do's". She is constantly angry and nothing I or anyone else says or does will help. I tried and hung in there for 7 years and she told me she didn't love and and wanted to leave me 3x for no apparent reason - I was very good to her and loved her with all my heart. I even offered to go to counseling with our pastor but she refused. The first 2 times I hung in there because I am a Christian and I believe that when you give your word in the marriage vows, you should stick to it. But I have never seen such a horrible attitude or anger problem in a person in my entire life. I regret ever meeting her. Even though she is very physically beautiful, the attitude just kills it. I went to see my pastor after she announced she wanted to leave me, and after talking to him, he even said to just let her go and later on find someone else. We are not called by God to be someone's doormat. Her nasty attitude has made her enemies and cost her jobs before. She was once fired from a very good paying job because of her bad attitude. This didn't change her, however, she just learned to "play nice" a little better when the help is around.

I have also talked to a number of other white guys who have dated black girls and they have all said the same thing - that the black women they dated have terrible attitudes and anger management problems. Most of these white guys say they would never do it again. This is very bad news for the black chicks out there who have developed a liking for white men. We are getting wise to your attitude! This is why many white men won't date black women. It used to be the race issue. Now that's pretty much dead. It's pretty much ok in white society to date outside your race now pretty much everywhere except in the extreme rural south. So if white guys are saying no or not interested in you now, its probably because they are wise to the attitude thing. I hear the locker room talk. And that's what we are saying. We talk to the brothas too. And they are saying it as well.

So ladies, you better tone it down if you want to have a chance with self respecting white guys. Word is getting out amongst white men about your attitudes and many of us are now wary and cautious about dating you because of others' experiences with this problem.

I really don't get it. You black ladies are extremely beautiful (well at least some of you are) but the attitude thing just totally kills it. After my divorce is final I will consider dating another black woman but at the FIRST sign of attitude, I am outta there so fast she won't know what happened. Life is too short to be some angry black chick's doormat.

Sadly, white women aren't any better - most of them I have dated cheat on you and do things behind your back. Most are really submissive and usually don't have the backbone to give a man that much attitude to his face, but I think the thing is that black women are just more bold and up front about it, and white women are more passive and sneaky about it. If someone does have something against me, I would actually prefer the black woman approach - tell me to my face, that way at least I know where I stand with her and am not in for a totally unexpected rude awakening one day. But my ex wouldn't even do that - she would just stew and act hateful for weeks on end without ever telling me what I did wrong. And 99% of the time, she was mad at something or someone else but taking it out on me.

I am an educated (master's degree) very attractive and very well built white guy (former bodybuilder) who can do much better. Like I said before, I would consider dating black women again but I will not tolerate attitude one bit in the future.

If everyone, black and white alike, would just treat others as you want to be treated, this wouldn't even be an issue.

Anonymous said...

Knockoutchick says:

Yes WM are angry about WW wanting super achievers....yes they are complaining.

I have found BW in general to be much more for giving in terms of what they are seeking in a professional man.

Yet many under-employed BM who date WW complain that professional BW wouldn't date them...as those women ONLY wanted them for their money and HOW lucky they were to meet a WW who understood them for themselves :-) and doesn't mind supporting them...because as we all know...love is not about money! Even though they haven't had a job since Bill was President!!!!!

Anonymous said...

Another bash BW typical make excuses-for, defend and protect BM fest.


I am rapidly becoming disgusted with these blogs. What happened to defending and being champions for BW?

Maybe when BW suicide rates skyrocket people will finally be satisfied.

Kenya said...

Per the previous post from another blog....

Well, the guy didn't say how he contributed to the breakup of the marriage.
Until I hear her side, I can't even form a stranger's opinion.
We don't know why she said she'd leave him 3 times in the marriage before she finally had enough.
We don't know what was going on in their lives to cause her failure in her professional life.

The problem I have with this is it's very one-sided. The fact that he finds such fault with white women as well doesn't help his case either.

Anonymous said...

I agree with Kenya. And I find the article irrelant,really, Who cares about ONE bitter guy's experience.
And he can hardly speak for all Canadian white guys. The fact that he's also b*tching about WW is telling as well. Maybe he needs a Stepford wife.

Anonymous said...

knockoutchick says:

Well it's always the same..when things go wrong with BW, the "attitude" line is brought up. Yet I know of WW and AW in relationships with BM that jump on them and beat, scratch, yell and all around kick ass...and what did all of the BM I know who have experienced this do...nothing!

As a matter of fact the AW in a relationship with the BM i know who would attack him, could do so freely when she got angry because he was AFRAID to call the cops as he assumed they would automatically arrest him as he was twice her size. So she knew she could open up a "can o" whup ass" anytime it would please her.

Recently I saw this particular BM friend again with a new Asian GF who also looked tough as nails. Do these BM i know think ALL WW and AW are ass kickers. No, they seem to be able to realize that is not the case but it is only the women THEY have chosen.

Ill bet $20 and 10 cosmopolitans that the whiny white guy in Toronto ends up with another ball buster.....of what ever race.

Anyway here's a nice positive story to follow up Toronto piece.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/06/fashion/weddings/06VOWS.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

Anonymous said...

I know of WW and AW in relationships with BM that jump on them and beat, scratch, yell and all around kick ass

Yet a 1985 national survey indicated that the rate of abusive violence by black women was nearly 3 times greater than the rate of white women.

Aimee said...

Anonymous said...
I found this on the Afrotoronto blog. Opinions?

No.

Sandra77 said...

I am not buying that letter from the WM in Toronto. BW in Toronto are primarily of Caribbean and African ancestry, and the "attitude" accusation that so often gets bandied about with AA women doesn't really have legs among the BW Canadian population. I have a feeling that letter wasn't written by a WM or by a Canadian male at all. I sense an American BM trying to throw a spanner in the works among Canadian WW and BW, but not understanding that Canadian culture differs from American culture in general, and that Canadian black culture also differs from American black culture. Also, Canadian blacks don't usually refer to themselves as "brothas" or "sistas" - this is an AA cultural thing.

Anonymous said...

sandra77:

Bingo! Thats exactly what I thought the minute I read that letter. I would say it was written by a Black man trying to dissuade other races of men from considering BW as options for dating/marriage, similar to the way this man did in his video (except this one was addressed to get white women to stop BW from dating WM): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFt0f9UH4_8

The crazy part is, I think the more BW start to venture out, the more we'll see this kind of plotting on BM and even mammie BW's parts. Once it becomes apparent that BW are completely ready and willing to date out, the next step is to attempt to sabotage the BW's name (even moreso than now anyway) to other races of men in attempts to halt their ready and willingness to date BW. Thats how you know when a group doesn't have your best interests in mind. A lot of BM make it readily apparent that they don't want to commit to the average Black woman but then will go to lengths to assure no other men want her either.

Anonymous said...

The blog is owned by a Canadian who lives in Toronto. The commenters are from all over. This quote from the guy implies that he lives in the U.S.

"It's pretty much ok in white society to date outside your race now pretty much everywhere except in the extreme rural south."

Aimee said...

knockoutchick says:

LOL@Recently I saw this particular BM friend again with a new Asian GF who also looked tough as nails.

Good for her! This reminds of the stories my aunt used to tell about living in Korea while my uncle, who was in the military, was stationed there. She observed that the women ruled the household with an iron fist, and these American soldiers who fell for the "geisha" imagery usually ended up being all shocked and hurt when the "submissive" wives they thought they were getting would demand their entire paycheck each payday and then hand them back a paltry allowance.

I had no response to the Toronto tale because (1) as has already been pointed out, it sounds apocryphal, (2) one messy dude's inability to get his messy love life together really doesn't interest me, and (3) this is just another example of the desperate "they don't want you!" propaganda BW just have to see through and then discard.

Are we supposed to realize the "problem" is really that we have bad attitudes/are too fat/wear weaves, blah, blah, blah, and then go running "home," chastened? I already AM home. It's too bad this type can't put the same energy into getting their acts together that they put into trying to scare us into staying put.

daphne said...

It's pretty much ok in white society to date outside your race now pretty much everywhere except in the extreme rural south.

This sentiment is so funny to me. I certainly have no stats, but my gut tells me that there isn't a whole lot of interracial dating going on in the backwoods of South Dakota, Pennsylvania, or (insert rural area of just about any damn state here). Frankly, my perception of interracial dating is that the bulk of occurs in major cities. Last time I checked, there's a lot more of "middle America" than there are of major cities. That's not to say the IRR numbers aren't growing, but I wish some would cease with the "everyone else is enlightened except the South" mentality. It's a crock.

Sorry - I'm a born and bred Southern gal, so I get a touch sensitive about some things. I needed to vent a bit.

Anonymous said...

knockoutchick says:

Ohhhh, Aimee has an "admirer" who follows every word posted on her blog!

Everything Aimee or her posters say holds great interest for this experienced and knowledgeable BM.

Can he wake in the morning without thinking of Aimee? Can a day pass without just one sneak peek at her blog?

Can he hold himself back from wondering and posting about BW in IRRs? No, I say....I think not! The draw...the desire is just too strong!!!!

But maybe if he could just see a glimpse of Aimees' lovely face for a moment he would go away! Back to his own life, his job, his partner...and away from the shadows..trying to haunt BW who have moved on to a happy place.

Maybe he can also find a "happy place" for himself.

Anonymous said...

i am glad this article was written. when i first saw the title, i thought 'yea, right!'
I can write plenty of reasons, facts, and experiences (my own and other sisters) that White Men Do Find Black Women Attractive. It's actually a lot more white men than you think but society makes white men think we wouldn't be open to dating them and vice versa.

Anonymous said...

I agree with everyone here who thinks that the liar from Toronto is NOT a WM. I think it is either a BM or a WW, whining because they are afraid that BW & WM are waking up and realizing that those two groups are NOT God's gift to humankind. Spoiled, crybaby, selfish, LOSERS is what they are!

Sandra77 said...

Knockoutchick's comment about men choosing the same kind of woman of another race is so on point! I had a Jewish male friend who refused to date Jewish women because he claimed they were too tough and domineering and were too much like his mother (keep in mind that his father died when he was very small leaving his non-college educated mother with 3 children to rear on her own, which she did and supported and educated them all to college level). So he only dates AW, yet chooses the toughest, ballsiest AW to date! His last fiancee that I heard of was this Filipino girl who bossed him around in my presence to the point that I felt embarrassed for him - he was like a child being berated by a domineering mother!

Anonymous said...

I wish I had time to read all of the post here because they are all very thought provoking and interesting, however, I can't! Besides, I've been starring at my computer so much lately that my eyes are strained (lol!).

One thought that occurred to me regarding white men not being attracted to black women is this; look at history. What I mean by this is white slave owners often had bw as "mistresses". I know that a lot of you out there with strong gender studies as well as sociology backgrounds would say that that scenario was a demonstration of wm dominance, but I don't think it is limited to just that type of power and dominance struggle. There had to be some sort of physical attraction that wm had and have always had for bw in the first place because I'm sure not all of those involvements were just for wm proving that they were dominant. It was just that it was not socially acceptable for a wm back then to openly state that he found a bw attractive let alone be in a position to marry one back then.

Keep in mind that as we all know, blacks in general were considered not to be human. This became a "legalized concept" to keep blacks as slaves because before it became law that blacks were only 1/3 human, slavery had not become systemized and eventually slaves were able to earn their own freedom. The screws became tightened to keep slaves and their children and grandchildren as slaves so that whites could keep a secured and steady source of cheap labor.

I'm sure this is not news to most of us, but I point this out because whites were taught that blacks are inferior hense the law that blacks are only 1/3 human and therefore less--less intelligent, less desirable, less valuable etc...These beliefs are deeply entrenched in the American social structure, and it takes a long time to undue. If wm 100, 200, 300, 400 years ago had admitted that they found bw attractive, they had A LOT to lose! The whole social structure of American society had been dramatically impacted by this.

I'm not saying this to make excuses for whites in general. I just think that a lot of white people do not know how to see themselves positively unless they are seeing non-white people negatively, and it has become very socially acceptable. Again, it takes a long time for beliefs like this to change and therefore, for people to feel comfortable with the idea of wm being serious enough about bw to want to marry them. So, I think the attraction was always there--it has just been to risky to admit it.

Anonymous said...

I wish I had time to read all of the post here because they are all very thought provoking and interesting, however, I can't! Besides, I've been starring at my computer so much lately that my eyes are strained (lol!).

One thought that occurred to me regarding white men not being attracted to black women is this; look at history. What I mean by this is white slave owners often had bw as "mistresses". I know that a lot of you out there with strong gender studies as well as sociology backgrounds would say that that scenario was a demonstration of wm dominance, but I don't think it is limited to just that type of power and dominance struggle. There had to be some sort of physical attraction that wm had and have always had for bw in the first place because I'm sure not all of those involvements were just for wm proving that they were dominant. It was just that it was not socially acceptable for a wm back then to openly state that he found a bw attractive let alone be in a position to marry one back then.

Keep in mind that as we all know, blacks in general were considered not to be human. This became a "legalized concept" to keep blacks as slaves because before it became law that blacks were only 1/3 human, slavery had not become systemized and eventually slaves were able to earn their own freedom. The screws became tightened to keep slaves and their children and grandchildren as slaves so that whites could keep a secured and steady source of cheap labor.

I'm sure this is not news to most of us, but I point this out because whites were taught that blacks are inferior hense the law that blacks are only 1/3 human and therefore less--less intelligent, less desirable, less valuable etc...These beliefs are deeply entrenched in the American social structure, and it takes a long time to undue. If wm 100, 200, 300, 400 years ago had admitted that they found bw attractive, they had A LOT to lose! The whole social structure of American society had been dramatically impacted by this.

I'm not saying this to make excuses for whites in general. I just think that a lot of white people do not know how to see themselves positively unless they are seeing non-white people negatively, and it has become very socially acceptable. Again, it takes a long time for beliefs like this to change and therefore, for people to feel comfortable with the idea of wm being serious enough about bw to want to marry them. So, I think the attraction was always there--it has just been to risky to admit it.

EdD said...

While many black women cope with psychological or social hurdles in their path to dating interracially, one of the most potent barriers is the claim that black woman are unattractive, to non-black men and/or to men generally. This claim is generally hurled along two dimensions: (1) that black African characteristics such as kinky hair, dark skin, full lips and broad noses are simply unattractive on women and/or (2) that black women are more prone to obesity and less likely to properly care for themselves physically, and that it is this "self-neglect" that makes black women less attractive than other women.


Speaking only for myself as a white man married to a black woman, the features of many black women are heart-stoppingly beautiful to me. The features I'm referring to are the features mentioned in the clip above, dark skin, broad noses, full lips and tightly curled hair. I especially admire the shape of the eyes and the delicate jawlines as well as the graceful, slender necks and wrists I see in many black women.

I've been rebuffed by quite a few beautiful black women, but didn't let that stop me from expressing my admiration for beauty when I see it.

To any white men reading, just go ahead and tell the lovely woman you're admiring that you find her attractive. The risk is worth the reward. Sure, you'll be snubbed by some, but persistence may well lead to a wonderful relationship and/or marriage.

Anonymous said...

FYI ... there are two articles in this month's Black Enterprise magazine which highlight two interracial couples and their business. Both are black women married to white men.

cheers,

BMWC

Anonymous said...

Situations like this don't help black women's reputation:

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/15851207/detail.html

Gotta Let it Out said...

Great post... very thought provoking....

Gorgeous Black Women said...

"...but even more so by the limited experience that many black women have had with being approached with the same assertiveness by non-black men that they have experienced with black men."

What happens when the "approach" from black men, generally boys and old men in my new town, comes in the form of whistles and honked horns? To me, that's not an approach. I've been approached properly (=courteously) by black and white men in other towns. In this new town (Boston), I certainly feel like the statement "white men don't want you" does apply when it comes to relationships. The same goes for black men, so what's a gal to do?

Anonymous said...

"In this new town (Boston), I certainly feel like the statement "white men don't want you" does apply when it comes to relationships. The same goes for black men, so what's a gal to do?"

I also reside in Boston and I am surprised that you find the statement about interracial relationships true. I have had just the opposite experience in this town.

I am not sure where you spend most of your time, but I find that the most cosmopolitan areas of Boston are havens for meeting white men who date interracially. As for black men, I have never dated any black men in Boston, so I wouldn't be able to help you there.

Anonymous said...

Gorgeous, but according to too many misguided and just plain ignorant people, BM "love" BW and are beating down doors to persue you.

Mark Lewis said...

Speaking as a white man, I find black women to be the most beautiful women on the face of the earth.

Anonymous said...

Gorgeous, but according to too many misguided and just plain ignorant people, BM "love" BW and are beating down doors to persue you.

Actually, according to statistics.

Anonymous said...

Mark Lewis said...
Speaking as a white man, I find black women to be the most beautiful women on the face of the earth.

April 24, 2008 5:05 PM



That's very, very sweet of you. =)

Anonymous said...

Great topic, Aimee!

When I was younger, and living in Europe, I didn't have any trouble dating. European men often found my looks to be exotic and unique (I'm very tall, and at the time, rather petite with long braids). But since returning to the US it's been more difficult. I think a great deal of it has to do with my own self-esteem (I had gained weight) and confidence, but I also think Americans are much more confined by what they consider to be social and cultural taboos. Even if they would date outside their "race" I think many white men feel a pressure not to.

Kalisha said...

Hi, I am in a long term relationship with a white man, with whom I have two daughters and I am black. Before meeting him I had only had a monogamous relationship with one other white guy and that didn't work out because of my own insecurities as well as his ignorance towards my feelings--or maybe I put too much importance on skin color and not on human relationships. Well, anyway what made me fall in love with my partner was that he accepted me as I am. Curly hair, brown skin--everything. He glorifies me and always tell me how beautiful I am. He made me feel secure and comfortable in my own skin like I had never felt before. I had always tried to change myself to fit other peoples ideas of who I should be. The black men that I dated would always want my hair straight and things like that, but when I met Brett he encouraged me to be natural. Telling me that it was my natural beauty that he loved. So, that is my story on inter racial dating. No matter who you decide to love--make sure they love you for who you naturally are.
Kalisha
http://mommylounge.wordpress.com

trula said...

Well this is certainly a very, very untrue myth as I can attest. I am very black-looking; dark brown skin, very thick natural hair, wide nose, big lips. and typical curvaceous (though NOT fat) black woman body. If I'm supposed to be unattractive to non-black men, someone forgot to tell all the ones who have ever hit on me LOL!

Black women...need to get over this belief that we aren't attractive, period. Yes we are, end of story.

Andrew said...

Dear Pathetic sellout Woman

Just because White men "hit on you" does not mean he wants a committed relationship with you. Again worshiping the white man like he is "baby jesus".

I figure your going to tell me " that you were passed around by several white men and they all loved you right?

The fact is white men on a whole do not date full figured black women. They won't date "Tameka" that is struggling to get by on her job. Also he will not date a black women with a black child from a black man she "broke up with". Now if you say that is happening I will tell you stop sipping on grandma's cough medicine.

Good day to all

Sincerely

Mr Laurelton Queens

Mark Lewis said...

As a white man who "discovered" the extraordinary beauty of black women a dozen years ago, I can only say that our culturally engrained prejudices can be overcome. Black women are the most beautiful women on earth IMO but coming to that conclusion for me was a process that involved much more about what was wrong with me, not what black women needed to prove or demonstrate. It involved self-examination, self-exploration, admitting that things I saw within myself needed to be changed, and most importantly, that God's view of things was not my view. Only when we are honest with ourselves can we truly change.

It's important for the negative images of black women that we see in the media to be countereacted by whites as well as African Americans. I don't see enough of this. I see white's react to things from a position of political correctness out of cultural coersion, but rarely do I see us stand up and proactively take a stand when we see or hear these images represented. That must change; and it is MEN who need to lead this change. For to long we've ignored our responsibilities to be leaders in our homes and our societies. The consequence of this failure is that women have had to step into a role they've had thrust upon them. When we have strong men of all races who will step forward and lead, these images we see around us will begin to also dissapear.

IR relationships are a growing fact of life in America that is only going to grow larger as time goes on. I look forward to the day when these issues will seem curiously quaint and outdated, and we will look back on the existence of these blogs and their discussions as relics from some bygone era as we now do with pictures of black and white drinking fountains.

rebecca said...

Trees

(1)

I think that I shall never see

A poem lovely as a tree.
(2)

A tree whose hungry mouth is prest

against the earth's sweet flowing breast;

(3)

A tree that looks at God all day,

And lifts her leafy arms to pray;

(4)

A tree that may in summer wear

A nest of robins in her hair;

(5)

Upon whose bosom snow has lain;

Who intimately lives with the rain.

(6)

Poems are made by fools like me,

But only God can make a tree.

~~~by age of conan

cool_splash1 said...

Wow Andrew you must really love bw-Ir blogs cause you sure love coming to them frequently.

cool_splash1 said...

Yeah really please do not buy into that whole attitude crap. Many of the women with attitudes from ghetto to acting like you didn't exist or were low on the totem pole have been ww as well as any other women of any race. I found this when I worked on a short film for a 48 hour film festival. Not all, but some of them were. I wasn't sure if it was just be or maybe I was just crazy.

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