Wednesday, May 28, 2008

Reinterpreting Wesley Snipes

Wesley Snipes, by Laura B. Randolph
Ebony Magazine, September 1991,
v.46 n.11 p84

Hollywood's Hottest New Star Talks About: His Divorce, His Days on the Streets and Why He Doesn't Have 'Jungle Fever'

"I like a woman who is aware of her womaness in its universal form; a woman who isn't defined by what she's been told, or what she's been dictated to believe she's supposed to be. Those are the women who attract me. Women who allow that to embody them . . . and at the same time they're not in conflict with you because you're a man. They see the interconnectedness and the necessity of having a man--not a boy or male but a man--in their life. A woman who has that going on, she will grab my attention every time."

And, unlike the object of his onscreen character's desire, she probably won't be White. Though he allows, "If two people love one another that should be all that matters," offscreen, Wesley Snipes definitely doesn't have jungle fever. "It's more important to me to try and develop a good . . . relationship between a Black man and a Black woman," he says. 'That's the agenda right now and that's totally where my head is -- to redefine the image of Black male/female relationships and how important and valuable they are. We have to work on that tip. Once we work on that and relate to one another on a personal, professional, sexual and social sense, then we can venture out. Until then, we ain't ready for it."


Wesley Snipes, by Lynn Norment
Ebony Magazine, November 1997, v.53 n.1 p188

On the personal level, Snipes, a divorced father of a "precocious" 8-year-old son, Jelani, says he enjoys spending time with "spirited" women. "Either the hot-headed ones or the ones who just think they're divas," he explains. "I like them because they have spice and creativity. I like a woman who reads. I think a number of my
relationships [ended] because she didn't read and we didn't have anything to talk about.... But I'm not into the ones who want to jump up and fight and get loud. That's not my flavor."

The Asian model and restaurateur he introduces as "my lady, Donna [Wong]" has been Snipes' companion for the past year and a half. When asked if he dates Black women, he says: "Primarily all of my life I've dated Black women.... Oh, most definitely. Oh, my God. Mostly. But it just so happens that now I'm dating an Asian woman. It's different. Different energy, different spirit, but a nice person." He says he is not ready for marriage; nor is Donna. "She's got to learn to deal with the love scenes in the movies first," says Snipes as he chuckles. "Got to get to a place where it's very comfortable."

Wesley says he realizes that there are Black women still who get an attitude about Black men with Asian, White or Hispanic women. "I know we've all been hurt, and we're all very wounded," he says, addressing Black women. "We have to acknowledge that, both male and female, in the Black experience. We're a wounded people. And we want to possess and we want to own. We don't want to compromise. We feel like we've compromised enough. But in any relationship you have to compromise. There's no way around it. And I say to Black women also, Brothers who are very, very successful, or who have become somewhat successful, usually it's been at a great expense, unseen by the camera's eye.... "He doesn't want to come home to someone who's going to be mean and aggravating and unkind and who is going to be `please me, please me.' He doesn't want to come home to that. He doesn't want to come home to have a fight with someone who is supposed to be his helpmate. So it's very natural that he's going to turn to some place that's more compassionate.... You've worked hard and you deserve to come home to comforting. And usually a man who has that will appreciate it. Because I've never known one cat, all those cats I've hung out with and still hang out with, who found something that they really, really like and didn't go back to it. They all go back. It's very simple."

When asked for clarification, Snipes emphasizes that he is not saying that a Black woman can not be that type of woman a man wants to come home to. "Not at all," he declares. "Absolutely not. That's the point. I want to come home and I don't want to argue. I want to be pleasing, but if I ask you to get me a glass of water, you're going to say, `Them days is over.' Please. Come on," Wesley says. "A man likes that. I don't know why. It's been that way forever. It makes him proud, you know, like when the guys come over and your lady comes out with a tray of food and says `I made this up for you.' And the guys are like, `Oh man, you've got a great women.' And the man says, `Yeah, I do.' A man will appreciate it when you're kind and when you're nice. "For successful women, it's hard," he continues, obviously quite comfortable and articulate on the subject of relationships. "The competition is fierce. And if he's a man of success and power who happens to be handsome, of course you're not the only one who thinks he's handsome. But you don't have to punish him because of that once you get with him. Don't punish him because somebody else likes him."

Continuing with his openness, Snipes says he's had his heart broken more than once, and at times by Black women. "Most definitely. Most definitely," he says. In his new film, the dramatic love-triangle "One Night Stand" hearts are broken as Snipes' character is caught in a love triangle between two beautiful women--one of whom is blond(Nastassja Kinski), the other Asian (Ming-Na Wen) . . .

"One Night Stand" originally was written for Nicholas Cage, but Cage was preoccupied with another film. The director sought Snipes because he wanted someone with a strong acting background but who also would be attractive to Nastassja Kinski. "It was never an issue of the interracial aspect at all," Snipes says, adding that "the only thing we don't have in this film is a Sister."

He says there were discussions concerning whether his character's wife should be Black or whether she should be White. "Early on there were concerns about the Black community reminiscing to Jungle Fever, and missing the point of the story," he says. "So we didn't want to go that route. And I've done a lot of movies where I've had White women as my co-stars. That would have been kind of redundant. So I said, `Well, let me go either Spanish or Asian. That's something unusual.'"



Wesley Snipes has been in the news recently primarily because of his troubles with the Internal Revenue Service. The 45-year-old actor was sentenced last month to three years in prison on three misdemeanor counts of willful failure to file income tax returns since 1998. Wesley Snipes has long been notorious among black women, however, for a different reason—for his being an icon of the specific type of interracial dater that black people often state they resent above all others: the one who not only dates “outside his race,” but justifies his doing so by insulting and belittling the members of the opposite sex of his own race. This loathsome reputation was earned by Mr. Snipes through the above statements quoted from at length above from the second article featured in Ebony magazine where he discloses his relationship with Ms. Wong, who is apparently now his wife.

I remember reading this article, and yes, finding it pretty offensive. It seemed to rely implicitly on the most common stereotypes about black women (“mean and aggravating and unkind, argumentative, unyielding, blah, blah, blah). Yet, at the same time, I tried to take Snipes at his word, and view his words from the perspective that he claimed to be offering them, as equally applicable to both black men and black women in the dating world. And viewing his statements from a gender neutral perspective (even if he did not actually express them in that way), he articulated an uncomfortable but very real factor that does haunt many relationships between black people, romantic and otherwise: the way that the stresses we face as a people in the larger society effect the manner in which we interact with each other.

Typically, those black people who oppose IRRs who bother to formulate a non-emotional rationale for their opposition usually found their reasoning on the belief that no other people can understand this stress, this “woundedness” that Snipes refers to, and that attempting to explain to clueless non-black (especially white) partners what we have to cope with would only add stress to a relationship. How would you feel coming home to a white husband or wife after being called a “nigger” in traffic? Or worse, being denied a job you were qualified for, or a promotion you had earned? Could they even comprehend what it means when you show up for an interview which HR had expressed nothing but enthusiasm about, only to see their faces fall when YOU walk through the door? Can they really empathize when you express frustration with always being last hired and first fired, with always having to be twice as good to get half as far? What if your lover, your best friend, that one person who is supposed to have your back, dismissed your distress, and suggested that you simply wore the wrong shoes or hairstyle, or someone else was just more “qualified”?

However, what Snipes expressed was the other side of this equation—what if coming home to someone who doesn’t bear that particular burden is not additionally stressful, but less so? Are there benefits to sharing life with someone with a “different energy,” as he put it?

One of the main reasons that black women have often reacted with such knee-jerk resentment to IRRs is precisely because, too often, black men’s preference for non-black women is expressed in terms of such women possessing a “lightness” and “ease” that black women do not—a lightness that, to the extent it exists, comes at least in part from not having the same kind of struggles with our society that black men try to escape by pursuing non-black women, and, of course, from having a level of support as women from their men that black women have not enjoyed. To be rejected not only because you bring the same involuntarily shouldered burdens to the relationship as the man, but also the additional burdens of his neglect, hostility and exploitation, has often been too much for black women to bear.

As Halima’s concept of racio-misogyny articulates, for some black men, sexism against black women is not merely a function of gender but also of race—resentment is derived as much from black women’s nappy hair, dark skin, broad features, “lack of femininity,” the way in which her blackness precludes her from being the trophy that Snipes describes (“the guys are like, `Oh man, you've got a great women.' And the man says, `Yeah, I do. ”)--as it is from her being a woman. His words here remind me of the scene in “Their Eyes Were Watching God” in which Tea Cake brags about the fair-skinned Janie’s susceptibility to bruising after a beating. Black equals strong, loud, unsusceptible to bruising--mule-like in toughness and resiliency. As Snipes notes, a man wants to be proud of his woman: he wants someone pleasing, someone compromising, someone compassionate—to him. But as Snipes acknowledges in passing, black women, who must cope with many of the same stresses as black men, plus others that black men don’t experience, may also want these some qualities in a mate. And while black women are constantly discouraged from being too black, too loud, too angry and too tough, these qualities are considered the sine qua non of black manhood in our society. When a black woman finds a man who is comfortable in his manhood without the barrier of this armor, is she expected not to find the experience as appealing as all the black men who have lauded the comparative “softness” of non-black women?

I have always argued that there is no group in Western society that is more restricted from being gentle, nurturing, vulnerable, and humane than black men. Our history makes it clear how this restriction has occurred, as well as it’s tragic results. But, today, much of the enforcement of “hardness” for black men in our society comes from other black men and the “community” at large. Robbed of other avenues of achieving manhood, too many brothers settle for a caricature of masculinity that consists of little more than the ability to brutalize and exploit others without conscience. And while we must always remember the historical roots of this tragic phenomenon, as black women, we are not somehow obligated to lay down and sacrifice ourselves too it. We, like Mr. Snipes, have a right to enjoy a “different energy” in our intimate relationships, to be respected, to be pleased, to come home to peace and compromise. Certainly, that energy can be found with a black man—but it might also be found with a non-black man, and if it is, you should feel no more guilt or shame about that fact than Mr. Snipes. While many have argued that a to reject a damaged brother, especially one damaged by racism, when you have it in your power to nurture him “back to health” is a betrayal, your first concern must always be what cost will such nurturance impose on you? Certainly the mean, aggravating, unkind women that Mr. Snipes left behind for Ms. Wong could probably use some “nurturance” as well, but is that really Mr. Snipes’ responsibility? Would it even be the most effective way for him to have a positive impact on his people’s well being as a whole—to attempt to save one angry woman from herself? In the same way, we as black women must be grateful when we find that “different energy” in our personal relationships, that peace and security that allows us to blossom in every aspect of our lives, and empowers us to be that much more effective in all that we do. We deserve that as much as Mr. Snipes.

252 comments:

1 – 200 of 252   Newer›   Newest»
Pamela said...

Just as Wesley Snipes obviously did not feel he was to try and nuture his ex-wife back to health, nor should that be expected of us as bw. You cannot put the responsibility of the well being of an adult on another person. That is highly unfair to make that suggestion.

You cannot guarantee that you are going to get along with every living human being. Some people do well with some people and not with others. That is life. My first responsibility is to find people that I get along with, no matter the race. If I am so blessed to meet someone where we want to spend our lives together in marriage, the last thing I want the relationship to turn out to be is a years-long counseling session.

daphne said...

But as Snipes acknowledges in passing, black women, who must cope with many of the same stresses as black men, plus others that black men don’t experience, may also want these some qualities in a mate. And while black women are constantly discouraged from being too black, too loud, too angry and too tough, these qualities are considered the sine qua non of black manhood in our society. When a black woman finds a man who is comfortable in his manhood without the barrier of this armor, is she expected not to find the experience as appealing as all the black men who have lauded the comparative “softness” of non-black women?

Ah yes, the flip side of the coin that is rarely discussed - there are a number of posts in the black blogosphere about black women who love the epitome of false black manhood (aka THUGS), even to their detriment, but you don't hear much about the women who aren't attracted to said manifestation of "masculinity." We're not supposed to talk about that - how some of us aren't interested in "nurturing or saving" such a man. How some of us prefer freedom from drama as much as some black men. Don't you know we women are responsible for a man's behavior? How dare we travel a similar path to what Wesley describes? How dare we seek a different energy - we just aren't giving the "brothas" a chance!

How appropo this post is, Aimee, especially after reading one of the posts over at Black Women Vote this week. I think many of the same posters frequent both blogs, so I'll leave it at that, lol.

Taylor-Sara said...

Aimee, simply fantastic! How do you write with such eloquence and perpetual thought? I agree that someone of another race who did not have to deal with all that we deal with would probably have a dif. energy and a lightness that might be impossible for many sistas to even fake. It would be akin to a child who grows up in an abused and neglected home trying to be as light and carefree as her neighbor who grew up loved and protected. Even she would know the futility of trying to fake it....However, I also agree that we can also be attracted to that lighter, freer energy. Why are we always expected to quell our needs and wants, while bm are permitted to engage them unfettered?....

calibudafly said...

Knowledge for the soul Aimee, knowledge for the soul.

This is the type of information that needs to be preached from the pulpits!!

Aimee said...

Taylor-Sara said...

I agree that someone of another race who did not have to deal with all that we deal with would probably have a dif. energy and a lightness that might be impossible for many sistas to even fake. It would be akin to a child who grows up in an abused and neglected home trying to be as light and carefree as her neighbor who grew up loved and protected. Even she would know the futility of trying to fake it....However, I also agree that we can also be attracted to that lighter, freer energy.

Hey t-s!

I can see someone reading your perfectly reasonable analyis, and immediately responding "ah-ha! So you DO think non-black people are somehow 'better'"! NO! In Mr. Snipes words, the energy he refers to is "different," not "better."

There is the reality that there are things that a non-black mate may never be able to "understand" about our experience, and may accordingly lack the ability to provide a certain kind of support that we could use. But there is also the reality there are things that he or she will never have to cope with in our experience as well--and as a result, may in some ways be able to provide a support that it would be harder, generally, for a black person to provide. I think this is the reality that Snipes addressed, and it is not necessarily a BW-hating or black-hating insight at all. We all bring different assets and deficits to the table. Why not think about what those plusses and minuses may be?

Thanks for your insight!

Clarice said...

"Once we work on that and relate to one another on a personal, professional, sexual and social sense, then we can venture out. Until then, we ain't ready for it."

As always an excellent and thought provoking posting - it just makes you want to say hmmmmmmmm

That sounds fine well and good but bottom line until each portion of that equation is whole, and healthy mentally spiritually, physically and psychologically they cannot relate to each other without causing harm - the present behavior shows that - so it looks like BM collectively have some work to do on themselves before even attempting a dialog much the same way BW collectively have been and are working on themselves.

Maybe it's my imagination but there goes that collective we again. There is no we in this equation. We implies that BW and men have to work together to fix the situation. BW are not responsible for the behavior or healing wounded men. Not now and not ever. Physician heal they self!

BM need to recognize, accept and acknowledge that BW who are "very, very successful, or who have become somewhat successful, usually it's been at a great expense, unseen by all except really close friends and or family and maybe not even then...."

A woman does not "want to come home to someone who's going to be mean and aggravating and unkind and who is going to be `please me, please me.'She doesn't want to come home to that. She doesn't want to come home to have a fight with someone who is supposed to be there for her." You've worked hard and you deserve to come home to comforting."

Hello! That is a universal truth! DO not punish a successful woman for being good at what she does or using her talents to the fullest - acknowledge it appreciate it and accept that having her in your life is a blessing and guaranteed she will appreciate that and respond with kindness and love.

That kind of acceptance, love, support and appreciation engenders a responsive "lightness" and "ease" in a healthy, whole person. Only when a woman feels safe, protected and cherished can and or will a healthy woman express her femininity.

BW have in many cases woken up to the fact that collectively BM may never recognize the previously stated home truths and in many cases healed themselves and moved on! Some folks just do not get it and may never get it.

Femininity though it is "soft" is very powerful and incredible force of energy - the life giving sustaining force and that can scare someone who is not ready to handle that, which is why women often hesitate to fully express that. When a woman meets a man who is comfortable enough in who he is as he is - granted he's not perfect no one is - but he has the strength of character and has a proven willingness to be responsible and respectful and caring, protective and compassionate to the her as she is in all aspects - she will respond.

It takes a strong man to embrace the soft strength and power of femininity and make it safe for a woman - the woman in his life to be lighter, freer, gentle, and nurturing.

It scares BW especially the potentially negative reaction of those they trust and who are supposed to love and respect them. They know it scares those around them - they've experienced the backlash. BW are not afraid that they are weak they are afraid that they are powerful and might not be able to fully express that power and or deal with the reaction and consequences of that use of power. BW are not repressed or oppressed because they are weak but because we are powerful. Others sense that power and grace and majesty and fear it and in essence try to destroy that which they fear. Despite all that "still we rise" It is all in the approach.

If a person approaches in a selfish self serving manner a healthy whole person will either walk away or shutdown and back away to protect and preserve self - whole healthy people know not to give themselves away fully because that weakness them. You can't give what you do not have so you can't afford to give it all away. Giving without reciprocity or replenishing and nourishing the soul and spirit kills.

A healthy person shuts down giving in an unhealthy situation because that kind of negativity is corrosive. If the person is not whole and healthy enough to walk away they of course are going to go into "survival mode and shut it down aggressively. Survival is the natural instinct of every organism healthy or otherwise. Until and unless men acknowledge and accept their role in engendering the "hardness" required for survival response, and work on themselves there can be no true dialog. This is a lesson that can only be learned for themselves. BW can only continue to do what is best for them to be and maintain health and wholeness.

v/r

Clarice

knockoutchick said...

In general in the BC I see us not treating each other kindly.

I witness a lot of cruel behavior everyday and this behavior has been deemed to be by many in the BC "authentically black".

If I witness exchanges that are unusually harsh, I speak up, such a as people laughing at a disabled person falling, etc. After awhile people become numb to aggression and it passes as "normal"

When you grow up in a community in crisis...it is difficult to have the "lightness" or overall optimism that I see in more privledged communities.

When I pass groups of Prep school girls on the Upper East side...the one or two black girls you see more and more in these groups are just as giddy and happily self involved as the others. It seems having scores of people looking out for you and others thinking highly of you goes along way towards cheeriness.

One idea I had about addressing the cruelness with exhibit towards each other....we might even have something like a "kindness" day in the BC that could be promoted by those who have noteriety in the BC. I know it sounds like nothing but just to get people to talk about behavior would be a start.

Felicity said...

Excellent piece. I think Welsey's second wife is Korean and they are divorced, but they have four children and he spends a lot of time in Korea. I think sometimes, there is a lot of pressure of black men and women. People just want to be....For a lot of us women, we are just tired and it is just wonderful to have a man to appreciate you regardless of colour. BW have woken up to the truth, healed themselves and moved on and if people can't accept it. Well that is there problem, not the problem of BW.

Suburban Goddess said...

I have to admit that these are some of the same reasons I want to marry a white man... to escape constantly staring "black" issues in the face. I want to come home and forget sometimes how closed the world seems when your reality is limited to black issues and the black perspective.

jazine said...

I feel you surburan goddess. For me, I am attracted to non-bm simply because I have more in common with them in terms. I also think they're very physically attractive. :) I find that I don't gel with bm when it comes to romantic/intimate partnerships.

I don't want to be with someone just because we both face racism. If that is the common denominator that is binding us, then I'll pass. I can talk and find shelter from racism at the hands of whites and others from my family: black women and black men. I would not get with a non-bm who is totally ignorant and/or hostile to my talking about race. We don't have to obsess about race, we're human beings outside of our race, but I don't want race to be a forbidden topic, especially if we plan to raise a family.

J said...

Quoted from the post:

"lightness that, to the extent it exists, comes at least in part from not having the same kind of struggles with our society that black men try to escape by pursuing non-black women, and, of course, from having a level of support as women from their men that black women have not enjoyed. To be rejected not only because you bring the same involuntarily shouldered burdens to the relationship as the man, but also the additional burdens of his neglect, hostility and exploitation, has often been too much for black women to bear."

Wow. This is the gospel truth. You really need to consider getting your word out on other Black populated forums and boards so that more sistas can hear this message. If there are anything like me they will have the reaction that I just did because this is something I always felt but was not ever able to properly verbalize it.

Ava said...

It is obvious that most of the women on this blog have decided to do the smart thing and exercise their options. I think that a discussion of Wesley Snipes (total loser) is a waste of our valuable time.

Ava said...

One idea I had about addressing the cruelness with exhibit towards each other....we might even have something like a "kindness" day in the BC that could be promoted by those who have noteriety in the BC. I know it sounds like nothing but just to get people to talk about behavior would be a start.

As sad as that sounds...it is actually very necessary and a GREAT idea! It could make a huge difference in our community.

Ava said...

That kind of acceptance, love, support and appreciation engenders a responsive "lightness" and "ease" in a healthy, whole person. Only when a woman feels safe, protected and cherished can and or will a healthy woman express her femininity.

Amen. I have had black men tell me
that I will probably get get the type of relationship that I want from a white man.

BW are not repressed or oppressed because they are weak but because we are powerful. Others sense that power and grace and majesty and fear it and in essence try to destroy that which they fear. Despite all that "still we rise" It is all in the approach.

True. Sometimes we are not even aware of our effect of our presence on others.

Aimee said...

A woman does not "want to come home to someone who's going to be mean and aggravating and unkind and who is going to be `please me, please me.'She doesn't want to come home to that. She doesn't want to come home to have a fight with someone who is supposed to be there for her." You've worked hard and you deserve to come home to comforting."

Hello! That is a universal truth! DO not punish a successful woman for being good at what she does or using her talents to the fullest - acknowledge it appreciate it and accept that having her in your life is a blessing and guaranteed she will appreciate that and respond with kindness and love.

Clarice


Thank you for expressing what I was trying to get across in your always clear and poetic way, Clarice.

All too often, there is a lack of acknowledgement that BW also deal with incredible barriers and struggles, and that supporting someone who faces those struggles is not simply a feminine value, but a masculine one as well.

It IS nice to come home to someone who is secure with himself and his place in the world, and can simply provide a shoulder to lean on. It IS refreshing and energizing. It DOES provide an incredible sense of security to be with a man who is wholly confident in his manhood without the need to be "hard" or degrade me as a woman--who indeed feels it only reflects his manhood to support and provide for me. I can't apologize for appreciating that. It's not my husband's fault that our society is structured the way it is, or that he enjoys certain privileges he never asked for. As an educated, affluent person, I also enjoy benefits that many people don't--I know that most white people will never benefit from the financial security or affluence I do. I worked hard for all I have, but I have also been just plain lucky--to be born with a certain level of capacity, into a healthy, secure, loving and educated family, that provided me every opportunity that can give a child a leg up. My husband enjoyed the same luck, only to an even greater degree.

Should we feel bad for that? All that we can do is work to change our society for the better, to make it more equal for everyone. Resenting people because they do not share our burdens, when they had no role in creating those burdens, does nothing to make our own burdens lighter or to make our society more fair.

PioneerValleyWoman said...

I don't think it is necessarily bad to talk about Wesley Snipes.

He is one celebrity who has garnered much attention and anger from black women over his dating choices.

But at the same time, there are those who would deny black women the right to those same choices.

Putting the scrutiny on him and "deconstructing" his mindset can thus provide black women a reason to call out those who would deny black women the right to their choices and relationships which benefit them.

It can provide a context for understanding the mindset of a black man like him--and we know he is not the only one.

Instead of moaning about them, why not think of what motivates them and think of what we can learn and use from that?

PioneerValleyWoman said...

What is great about this "reinterpretation," is that I remember reading the article when it came out, and I recall the anger of many black women over his comments.

Anger over how some black men tend to see us, and despair because we are always "lacking."

This anger and despair is obviously significant because black women who feel limited to being with black men exclusively can find themselves caught up so much in feelings of betrayal when "their" men run off with women of other backgrounds.

But there is no need for despair when black men are pursuing their choices; thus black women can pursue alternatives, just like the W. Snipes of the world, and with no apology.

Ten years later, it is wonderful to see a new way of looking at his comments.

Pamela said...

PVW I totally agree that the outlook has changed over the years. This was the first time I read this article. I was not keeping up with much. I have been one that would check out all options. However many of my black girlfriends would not hear of it. They did not chide me or anything like that because I'm generally off the beaten path. However now some of those same gals are changing their tune. It is really nice to see the change.

Sophisticatedblkwoman said...

" How would you feel coming home to a white husband or wife after being called a “nigger” in traffic? Or worse, being denied a job you were qualified for, or a promotion you had earned? Could they even comprehend what it means when you show up for an interview which HR had expressed nothing but enthusiasm about, only to see their faces fall when YOU walk through the door? Can they really empathize when you express frustration with always being last hired and first fired, with always having to be twice as good to get half as far? What if your lover, your best friend, that one person who is supposed to have your back, dismissed your distress, and suggested that you simply wore the wrong shoes or hairstyle, or someone else was just more “qualified”?"



Great post Aimee and I like your statements above, showing that black women face many challenges while searching a quality partner no matter what color.

Evia said...

Typically, those black people who oppose IRRs who bother to formulate a non-emotional rationale for their opposition usually found their reasoning on the belief that no other people can understand this stress, this “woundedness” that Snipes refers to

Aimee, this supposedly "non-emotional" rationale is based on the tendency of many black people to see ALL wm as ONE person. LOL! Whatever its intent, the rationale functions as a scare tactic to keep bw away from wm and sometimes, it's a very effective one.
To elaborate a bit, some black folks in my social circle are shocked that my husband Darren, a wm, can have the anti-racism views that he has or that he will get up in public and talk against racism. Folks have asked me, "How could a wm be so non-racist?" "Where did he come from?" "Is he an American?" LOL! This is because they see ALL wm as ONE. They are unable to or don't want to separate INDIVIDUAL whites from the "system" of white supremacy.

For blacks and whites who really want get to know each other, there is so little GENUINE interaction between the races until the bulk of whites and blacks never get a chance to really KNOW each other. Therefore the vast majority of people in both groups continue to BELIEVE the worst stereotypes about ALL members of the other group.

I have even been amazed at how many bw who express interest in a bw-wm relationship seem to be unable to see wm as individuals. I hear that there are wm who are unable to see bw as individuals too.

Re whether a wm can understand and be fully empathethic if his black wife/girlfriend is hit/wounded with a racist incident, I can say that I believe many wm CAN definitely understand and empathize though they may see the incident somewhat differently.

For ex., since the time I've been with my husband, I experienced a few racial incidents. One of them was a nasty case of discriminatory behavior of a supervisor on a job against me. I talked with Darren about this because I was really stressed.

Darren went straight to the heart of the situation in that he looked at the power differential between me and the supervisor because he sees racism as a case of the massive power of whites used to dominate and control blacks who have less power (or don't use our own massive power effectively to counter). In this case, he saw the situation as a case where the wm supervisor was (1)using the power of his white privileges, (2) relying on the white privileges embedded in his (historic) superior position AND (3) using the "perogatives" of his supervisory position against me. This guy actually tried to hide behind these "perogatives" that he didn't feel he had to explain.

Anwyay, Darren and I talked a lot about this situation while I was going through it. Anything that stresses me also stresses him because he feels that a big part of his responsibility as my husband is to protect me. He helped me to formulate a non-emotional defense against this supervisor that stripped him of his white privilege. At this point, this guy and I were on a similar footing and I went for the jugular. LOL! It involved a long paper trail, but the result: this racist supervisor was afraid to enter my office or even talk to me after this. When I would meet him in the hallway, he would hug the wall and stay as far away from me as possible. LOL! I had rendered him unable to do his job because he couldn't possibly evaluate me without talking to me and or withiout being biased. He chose to transfer out of the position.

A loving and supportive white man is going to see racism differently since they don't experience it, but they can/will have a bw's back. There are also lots of instances, I'm sure, where bw who have been "wounded" by racism do not get love and support from their black male mates. Yet there is this prevalent notion out there that a bm can totally understand a "wounded" bw and will be there for her. What a crock!

I don't believe for a second that any of these scare tactics keeps bm away from ww or aw, etc. LOL! Bm don't tend to pay any attention to these tons of discussions aimed at keeping blacks "loyal to the race." From what I read, hear, and observe, bm are out there trying to get who they consider the highest quality woman of their choice for themselves. Period. But this is why folks keep coming here and to other sites trying to LECTURE bw or appeal to bw. They don't even try to lecture bm because they know they won't get anywhere!

Pamela said...

I'm LOL at the supervisor hugging the wall and transferring out of his position:) That is absolutely hilarious being able to completely neutralize a racist with no emotion. That is a true skill.

Anonymous said...

I think Wesley will be concentrating on the male-on-male relationship he'll be having in prison.

He's got a lot of nerve talking about finding a woman whom appreciates a man ... not a boy or male ... when he can't even keep his life in order.

What a joke of a male!

GoldenAh said...

Nothing I can add, really, excellent posts by everyone.

Aimee just knocked it out of the ballpark on this one.

Jason said...

the way that the stresses we face as a people in the larger society effect the manner in which we interact with each other.

I don't agree with this and I think that it is a common excuse for how blacks interact with each other. The way black people today behave has little to do with the stresses they face, but rather much to do with how they are conditioned. Blacks in the 40s and 50s had far more stress, oppression, etc. than blacks today, yet had far better attitudes and personalities than blacks today.

This reminds me of when I was listening to the principal of a black middle school complain about how the girls are such a problem due to constant bickering, put downs, disputes, arguments, etc. with each other. She said that finally one girl admitted to her that the reason that they act like that is because that it simply how all of the women in their community act. Surely, the black boys have a similar story. It's learned behavior that becomes prevalent with blacks at ages well before they have experienced any real stresses in life.

Jason said...

How some of us prefer freedom from drama as much as some black men.

Most black men, not "some". This is not limitted to black men. Just from my personal observations, black men, as well as other men, have much more of an aversion to drama in relationships than women. Many black women seem to strive on it. I have read black women on the internet state one of their requirements for a man is for him to like to argue.

Black woman have aversions to certain habits of many men just like other women, but I don't see them commonly having aversion to men who are not compassionate or comforting and often times, such characteristics are viewed by them as weak.

What I've observed is that while men put emphasis on how they are treated by women, women tend to place more emphasis on how impressive men are to them.

La ~ msviswan said...

Informative article Aimee, well done.

"he sees racism as a case of the massive power of whites used to dominate and control blacks who have less power (or don't use our own massive power effectively to counter)."

In other words, the white husband doubles as the white savior to educate the black woman on how to fight the white male supremacy. Someone could interpret this as "takes one to know one". And the sentence in prentices states how we blacks may very well allow those "few" racist whites to control and dominate us.

"I don't believe for a second that any of these scare tactics keeps bm away from ww or aw, etc. LOL! Bm don't tend to pay any attention to these tons of discussions aimed at keeping blacks "loyal to the race."

So I wonder what's keeping so many white men from equally disbelieving the "scare tactics" which are aimed to keep them away from black women?

JaliliMaster said...

Jason, I am tempted to reply to you, but I won't. Ive seen how you've tried to divert the disicussion on previous topics, so I won't even let you start that here.

On another note, the replies (bar two or three) have been splendid. However, I do not for one second see Snipes comments in anything but a sinister way. He relied on stereotypes of bw to make those decisions (loud, agrressive, argumentative, full of drama etc), so please believe me, he falls into the group of blacks who justify their choice of non-black mate by putting down the opposite sex of their own race. If all that attracted him to his asian wife/gf was her qualities, he'd have left it at that. But no, he just had to throw in how he was tired of the loud, aggressive etc woman(insert bw).

And I find it hard to belive his ex black gf's were 100% responsible for the relatonships not working. When does he take resposibility. Afterall, not all of his exes were black and I'm sure his ex-wife was asian, so why doesn't he revert to stereotypes of her and his other non-black exes to explain why those relationships didn't work. Or is it only when the woman is black tha she has to bear all the responsibility? I reject it!

Nngiza said...

W. Snipes is an idiot, i never liked him. He just thinks he's better than other black people especially black women. My ex bf was white and my previous bf before him was black. I don't go around bad talking white men or black men. It's on the person and their immaturity or true ctor when they blame others to jusity why they date outside thir race.

___________________________________

Daphnie said: "How some of us prefer freedom from drama as much as some black men. Don't you know we women are responsible for a man's behavior? How dare we travel a similar path to what Wesley describes? How dare we seek a different energy - we just aren't giving the "brothas" a chance! "

Very interesting, I like how you put that together.

_________________________________

La misvswan said: "the white husband doubles as the white savior to educate the black woman on how to fight the white male supremacy. Someone could interpret this as "takes one to know one".
--- So I wonder what's keeping so many white men from equally disbelieving the "scare tactics" which are aimed to keep them away from black women?"

Great points! Something else to think about.

PioneerValleyWoman said...

Wasn't there a story about Snipes, that he once dated Halle Berry and beat her up? It seems I saw something about him beating her up so badly that she lost hearing in one ear....

Anonymous said...

Why are bw still focused on this guy? This is a waste of your time and energy. I simply do not give a duck about men like him...
reguardless of race.

Ann F.

Anonymous said...

Black women are often in denial of the way that a disproportionate number of black women behave and only want to assign common ignorant behavior to black males. Many of our young black males observe this type of behavior from our young black women everyday and it affects their perception of black females. The video below is a prime example:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=5eXNClwV5AM&feature=bz302

Notice that it is a black male who chastises her for her treatment of the "old lady" and this results in a confrontation where he grabs her hair. Makes one wonder how many physical confrontations between black males and females are instigated by such behavior on the female's part.

Here is an interesting write-up on the incident:

http://www.primetarget.org/dbcontent/content/view/329/29/

HBC said...

I was watching Tyra's show last week and topic was about; Why is it that 70% of black women are single? There were black men on the panel and in the audience. Tyra asked several of the bm there why they chose to be in relationships with non-black women? The most common response was that; they found those women easier to get along with and they did what they were told. In other words, they could control these non-black women but I couldn't control black women. Only one bm in the audience expressed not having a problem with bw, only one.

In my experience with black men, I have always found them to be extremely; sexist, miscogynistic and chauvinistic. They only want women in whom they can control and dominate. They aren't interested in finding an equal partner. Most black men want a woman who will walk behind them and not beside them. They have no problem verbalizing this even in a public forum and in this day and age...too(horrible). They are for some reason not made to feel ashamed or see their attitude as degrading to women. It seems that, no one has ever pulled their coat regarding their narrow minded view of women. What are they...cavemen?

As a strong independent black women, I have always been proud of wearing this title and I have never seen it as a double edged sword because that's the women I am and was raised to be. I date white men exclusively and they have always said to me that two of the many qualities they love and admire about black women are our strength and independence. The very same FINE qualities that bm despise in us, men of other races seem to celebrate. I have heard the same responses from hispanic men and asian men. None of the wm I've dated have ever asked me to take the back seat to them and they have always respected the women I am and have never rejected me for that.

I love being a strong independent black women. I have always believed these are the charactertics of a bw that makes us unique and wonderful while endearing us to other men(real men). These characteristics should be celebrated not look at as a burden or negative because sexist bm see them as a threat to their manhood. We don't need men like this in our lives.

As black women we should wake up and stop blaming ourselves for why bm have left us. As far as, I'm concerned other women can have them because I refuse to be any man's doormat or someone he can control. I have worked too hard and too long to become my own woman. The man I want to share my life with has to allow me, to be all that I am and if he can't, then I don't need him.

Anonymous said...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/6080096.stm

Black women 'also cause splits'

Black women are "hugely responsible" for the family breakdown which fuels crime, MPs have been told.

Camila Batmanghelidjh, of the charity Kid's Company, said men were usually seen as the "irresponsible" ones who got girls pregnant and "walked off".

But black women were also to blame as they had a culture of rejecting men and being "cruel" towards them, she said.

*snip*

Ms Batmanghelidjh told the MPs: "I actually think the mothers are hugely responsible because they have created a culture where they can get rid of the adolescent boy.

"They can get rid of the male partner, they can survive on their own.

"Often people think it's the males who are the culprits, the irresponsible people who actually come along and make these girls pregnant and walk off.

"And they underestimate the level of rejection and cruelty from the females towards the males.

"I actually think the males are really vulnerable and it starts in adolescence.

"The minute the adolescent boy begins to look slightly like a male and behave like a male, often the mother wants that young male banished from the house. A hate relationship often develops.

"I really think we underestimate the vulnerabilities of young black men."

Anonymous said...

In my experience with black men, I have always found them to be extremely; sexist, miscogynistic and chauvinistic.

It's funny that studies indicate that black men and women are less likely to adhere to traditional gender roles than other groups.

But what you call wanting to "control" a woman, I call wanting your woman to respect you as a man and value your desires.

Anonymous said...

Camila Batmanghelidjh...need to shut tfu.

Anonymous said...

It was obvious that the girl has some type of mental or drug problem. I am glad that guy finally spoke up. The nerve of the other guy telling him that she was a girl...What? And, what about the elderly lady?
ann

Anonymous said...

"In my experience with black men, I have always found them to be extremely; sexist, miscogynistic and chauvinistic."

I do think this tends to be a big problem among black men.

Pamela said...

PVW I heard the same story about Snipes and Halle Berry. I cannot say that it was verified. The few times I heard this mentioned by her she never said who the man was.

I love being a strong independent black women. I have always believed these are the charactertics of a bw that makes us unique and wonderful while endearing us to other men(real men).

I totally agree. I could care less about childish men. They are not grown up NOR are they worth my time. Be who you are and be around people that respect you. I had to smile when you said I love being a strong independent woman. That is the very thing that many of us have heard as a slur. I feel the same. I love being who I am. Whoever does not can just stay away. If you insist on hanging around I will make sure you leave me alone. I literally thank God that I am not around those type of men. I have quite a bit of peace in my life. You can leave the stupid people alone.

Aimee said...

PioneerValleyWoman said...

I don't think it is necessarily bad to talk about Wesley Snipes.

He is one celebrity who has garnered much attention and anger from black women over his dating choices.

But at the same time, there are those who would deny black women the right to those same choices.

Putting the scrutiny on him and "deconstructing" his mindset can thus provide black women a reason to call out those who would deny black women the right to their choices and relationships which benefit them.

It can provide a context for understanding the mindset of a black man like him--and we know he is not the only one.

Instead of moaning about them, why not think of what motivates them and think of what we can learn and use from that?


Thank you for providing this clarification PVW, because this is exactly why I chose to use Snipes as a launching point for this discussion. I'm less interested in him than in the response he has generated among BW, and how much more interesting it would be if instead of trying to argue with his opinions of BW, we actually looked at relationships from his point of view--but in OUR interest? I think this discussion makes it clear that such a reversal of perspective can actually be incredibly valuable.

Anonymous said...

I've often wondered when being loud, over-aggressive, argumentative, stubborn, and b*tchy became equated with being strong and independent and how men who refuse to put up with such behavior are not "real men".

Aimee said...

Evia said...

Aimee, this supposedly "non-emotional" rationale is based on the tendency of many black people to see ALL wm as ONE person. LOL! Whatever its intent, the rationale functions as a scare tactic to keep bw away from wm and sometimes, it's a very effective one.

This really is a key factor that it is important to keep sight of--the importance of distinguishing the individual from the group. When people do "reason" against IRRs, it is almost always based on a conflation of group and individual--on encouraging people to see their individual relationships as hopelessly tied to (negative) group dynamics.

Obviously, it is not as if our individual experiences are compeletely immune to what happens in the larger society. We are products of that larger society, we are socialized in the that larger society, we must work and live and function in that larger society, and just as we must "look into the abyss," it must by necessity look into us.

But to assume that each and every individual is no more than the product of a specific group identity--that they have no ability to evolve differently, to accept or reject certain aspects of their experience--is to display an extremely immature and primitive understanding of the human condition. People limit themselves in this way constantly, and as you have repeatedly pointed out, today, such limitation could easily be the difference between survival and non-survival. It is serious.

HBC said...

I've often wondered when being loud, over-aggressive, argumentative, stubborn, and b*tchy became equated with being strong and independent and how men who refuse to put up with such behavior are not "real men".

_________________________________

I am not argumentative, stubborn, or bitchy. I just know how to stand on my own two feet and I do an excellent job of supporting myself financially. I will never allow any man to disrespect me in an relationship because I believe in mutual respect. Relationships should always be an equal partnership not just one person wanting to be in control and needing to dominate the other person in order boost their own self-worth.

Pamela said...

Each of us must decide what we want and how to get there. Unfortunately at this point we will not be respected by children of adult age. It does not matter what they think. At least we know what we are dealing with and smart enough to ignore the stupid and live our lives. It is one thing for a person to be mean and nasty for no reason. It is another thing when a woman is being referred to being that way just because she strongly refuses to allow a child of adult age to control her. If that is what a male child of adult age wants in a woman let him find that woman and keep his mouth shut. Unfortunately children do not go away quietly. They yell and scream until (1) you give in or (2) they realize that they are not getting you to respond the way they want you to. Let them scream and live your life.

HBC said...

Black women 'also cause splits'

Black women are "hugely responsible" for the family breakdown which fuels crime, MPs have been told.

Camila Batmanghelidjh, of the charity Kid's Company, said men were usually seen as the "irresponsible" ones who got girls pregnant and "walked off".

But black women were also to blame as they had a culture of rejecting men and being "cruel" towards them, she said.

*snip*

Ms Batmanghelidjh told the MPs: "I actually think the mothers are hugely responsible because they have created a culture where they can get rid of the adolescent boy.

"They can get rid of the male partner, they can survive on their own.

"Often people think it's the males who are the culprits, the irresponsible people who actually come along and make these girls pregnant and walk off.

"And they underestimate the level of rejection and cruelty from the females towards the males.

"I actually think the males are really vulnerable and it starts in adolescence.

"The minute the adolescent boy begins to look slightly like a male and behave like a male, often the mother wants that young male banished from the house. A hate relationship often develops.

"I really think we underestimate the vulnerabilities of young black men."
-----------------------------------
This is a complete cock of sh*t.

I am sure that everyone on this blog is very familar with the old saying; "Black mothers love their sons and raise their daughters". I don't think I have to explain what this means.

HBC said...

I'm sorry I meant: This is a complete CROCK of sh*t.

GoldenAh said...

Well, that different energy is nice. It's good to be with a man who admits he aims to please, likes my hair, etc, and can handle a conversation without looking for a fight. Angry men are unattractive. They like to aggravate - it's not manly.

I learn a lot too. A peaceful man, who's not bitter and angry helps "lead" a woman off the ledge also. I know, and have met men who are so sweet - they get sweetness and graciousness in return. They make me pause, bite my tongue, and think about my behavior.

A good man calms a woman - some make it their duty to. This treatment reminds me I am female, I feel feminine, and this lifts the burden from my shoulders. That's when I know I'm dealing with a real man.

Pamela said...

A good friend of mine married last year. She is 45 and he is 50. When she was young she was in the streets in SE Washington. Anyone from that area knows you do not come up through there easy. By the time I met her in 2000 she had calmed down a bit but still had some anger problems. She was working on herself. Thank God she had enough of a spine to not take stupid stuff from men. In late 2006 she met the man that she married in September 2007. I do not live in the same town with them so I have not officially met him in person. I have talked with him on the phone. He and his entire family are so full of love. I am seeing my friend soften even more. From her own admission in times past she could keep something going for quite a while. Now if they fight he wants to make sure of a resolution before going to bed. In my mind this man is a real man that truly makes a gal feel like one.

Anonymous said...

I just know how to stand on my own two feet and I do an excellent job of supporting myself financially. I will never allow any man to disrespect me in an relationship because I believe in mutual respect. Relationships should always be an equal partnership not just one person wanting to be in control and needing to dominate the other person in order boost their own self-worth.

That is not what is being discussed. What is being discussed is what Snipes said:

"I want to come home and I don't want to argue. I want to be pleasing, but if I ask you to get me a glass of water, you're going to say, `Them days is over.' Please. Come on," Wesley says. "A man likes that. I don't know why. It's been that way forever. It makes him proud, you know, like when the guys come over and your lady comes out with a tray of food and says `I made this up for you.' And the guys are like, `Oh man, you've got a great women.' And the man says, `Yeah, I do.' A man will appreciate it when you're kind and when you're nice. "For successful women, it's hard," he continues, obviously quite comfortable and articulate on the subject of relationships. "The competition is fierce. And if he's a man of success and power who happens to be handsome, of course you're not the only one who thinks he's handsome. But you don't have to punish him because of that once you get with him. Don't punish him because somebody else likes him."

Being independent should have no bearing on whether a woman is "kind" and "nice" to her man, but many use independence as an excuse to be argumentative, stubborn and/or bi*chy and want to declare such behavior as being a "strong woman".

Pamela said...

PVW, you made some good comments about deconstructing and learning how to maneuver. The issue is not the person but the mindset being expressed. It takes time to learn about others, hopefully understand what they are trying to say, determine if you want to be bothered or not and pressing forward.

HBC said...

Being independent should have no bearing on whether a woman is "kind" and "nice" to her man, but many use independence as an excuse to be argumentative, stubborn and/or bi*chy and want to declare such behavior as being a "strong woman".
----------------------------------
Some men who use terms like "kind" and "nice" as a veiled way of saying that they want women who are submissive, docile and passive. Women who are argumentative, bit*chy or combative are usually women suffering from very severe emotional problems and I've seen women like this in every race.

If these are the kind of bw you have been involved with you may need to do some self-evaluation.

Anonymous said...

Some men who use terms like "kind" and "nice" as a veiled way of saying that they want women who are submissive, docile and passive. Women who are argumentative, bit*chy or combative are usually women suffering from very severe emotional problems and I've seen women like this in every race.

In 2008, men have overwhelmingly thrown up both hands on the notion of finding women who who are submissive, docile and passive in much the way that men in 2008 have overwhelmingly thrown up both hands on the notion of marrying virgins. Today, the average man is hopeful to find a woman who is pleasant the majority of the time. You are very much a good example of women today equating niceness with being submissive, docile and passive. That is why so many woman today are not very nice to their men.

And based on what you say, there are an extremely large number of women with severe emotional problems. I simply think that being argumentative and combative is a personality trait that is more prevalent among women today than ever before.

And I hope that you never try to generalize black men as deadbeat dads, criminals, domestic abusers, etc. since I've seen men "like this in every race".

Aimee said...

Anonymous said...

Being independent should have no bearing on whether a woman is "kind" and "nice" to her man, but many use independence as an excuse to be argumentative, stubborn and/or bi*chy and want to declare such behavior as being a "strong woman".

Well, such women should be avoided, just as men who confuse being a "strong man" with stubborness, argumentativenes and/or bi*chy behavior should be avoided. That was the point of my post, and I don't think anyone here has argued otherwise.

I'm not sure why you're constructing this strawman of the "bi*chy woman" that we, or anyone else, are trying to deem you or Wesley Snipes as not "real men" for rejecting. Frankly, Wesley Snipes was just a means of starting a conversation here; I don't care who he, or you, choose to date.

HBC said...

You are very much a good example of women today equating niceness with being submissive, docile and passive. That is why so many woman today are not very nice to their men.
_________________________________

No, I don't. I like to think I'm a nice woman but their have been men in the past, who took my niceness for weakness or that I was submissive. We're on our first date and they're already attempting to try to control me. We weren't even in a relationship yet but they have picked up on my easy going vibe and they were ready to go in for the kill.
But, they knew who they were dealing with when their phone calls weren't returned.
__________________________________

"And based on what you say, there are an extremely large number of women with severe emotional problems. I simply think that being argumentative and combative is a personality trait that is more prevalent among women today than ever before."
__________________________

Yes there are. These aren't personality traits but moreso personality defects.
_________________________________

And I hope that you never try to generalize black men as deadbeat dads, criminals, domestic abusers, etc. since I've seen men "like this in every race".
_____________________________

I don't like to generalize. I just go by what I witness repeatedly in the behavior of bm I have been surrounded with, within my community and the things you mentioned above about bm has been the norm in my observation.

Yeah, you may have your negative generalization of bw and they maybe the norm in your observations of us. I guess, it is what it is.

Anon, this has been fun but I have to wrap it now. Peace.

Jason said...

GoldenAh said...
Well, that different energy is nice. It's good to be with a man who admits he aims to please, likes my hair, etc, and can handle a conversation without looking for a fight. Angry men are unattractive. They like to aggravate - it's not manly.

I learn a lot too. A peaceful man, who's not bitter and angry helps "lead" a woman off the ledge also. I know, and have met men who are so sweet - they get sweetness and graciousness in return. They make me pause, bite my tongue, and think about my behavior.

A good man calms a woman - some make it their duty to. This treatment reminds me I am female, I feel feminine, and this lifts the burden from my shoulders. That's when I know I'm dealing with a real man.


This is a good attempt at flipping the script, but it doesn't work very well because you are assigning a male point of view to females. Most arguments between couples are initiated by the women. Among the complaints women commonly have about men, being argumentative or constantly looking for a fight is rarely one of them. Men want peace in the home. Doc Love explains it well when asked the following question:

http://www.askmen.com/dating/doclove_150/164_relationship_expert.html

Dear Doc Love,

There's something that has always puzzled me about the opposite sex: Why do women who are happy and deeply in love with their partners stir things up and start arguments for no rational reason?

I think you know what I'm talking about. It's that thing they do where everything is hunky dorey and suddenly, out of left field, they come up with some confrontational conversation that starts off with words like; "Honey, why don't you ever...?" or "You always..." or "Why can't you...?"

Is there something built into the female psyche that compels women to push, test and challenge their men? Why do women unnecessarily and irrationally create conflict, even when they're in happy, otherwise successful relationships?

I'm very interested in hearing any thoughts you have on this topic, Doc.

Bennet -- who wants a deeper understanding

-----------------------------------

Hi Bennet,

Men and women are different. A man, by nature, tends to look for comfort and consistency in his relationship.

A woman, on the other hand, tends to turn her primary relationship into a "Perpetual-Improvement Project." So, if there's nothing to work on or process, she's compelled to create something in order to continue work on her Project. As my uncle Jethro Love would say, "They've always gotta mess with things when things don't need fixin'."

You've probably heard the old familiar saying: A woman marries a man expecting he will change, but he doesn't. A man marries a woman expecting that she won't change, and she does.

The interesting thing about familiar sayings is that a lot of them are based on real wisdom. In relationships, a man avoids change while a woman thrives on it -- if things seem a bit placid and static, it's time for her to stir things up!

In essence, yes Bennet, I think that women do have an innate need to test and push their men. Why, exactly, must they do it? Ask 50 shrinks and you'll get 50 different answers. But I say that one of the main reasons they push is to see if there's anything there to push up against.

They need to know that you have a backbone, that you'll set limits, that you'll stand up for yourself. It makes them feel safe when you won't take any crap. It somehow provides them with reassurance that you are strong enough and confident enough to fight back when you're provoked and that you're capable of protecting them from danger.

Trying to check a man's protective capabilities by starting arguments is not totally logical, but it is bio -logical. It's a drive that goes back to the days when the womenfolk huddled in the cave while the men fought off a pack of ravenous saber-toothed tigers.

A woman's actual physical survival was dependent on having a strong, brave male at her side who could hunt and kill dangerous animals, and protect her from hostile tribes. That survival-based drive for a provider/protector still motivates the modern female.

So, even if a woman has super high Interest Level in you and she is also a sweet, loving and giving person, it's not uncommon for her to continually 'test your mettle' somehow. She'll always feel the need to dig and question, pry and push in subtle or overt ways. Why? Because she's a female.

Remember guys; the man who passes the test is the man who won't be tested.

La ~ msviswan said...

As for Camila Batmanghelidjh, I read her pathetic article couple years ago when it first came out.

I was angry at first, but then I paid her no more attention. I was hoping it would hurry go away. I'm to the conclusion that her article had an ulterior agenda. Non-black women like her who interject themselves among "down trotted" black people/society as 'saviors', are usually there for self serving reasons. AND they usually resent the strong black women who have no choice but to be strong, because of the obvious failures of the black males in the first place.

It also darned on me that she may very well have or want a black man to be somewhere up her personal midst. She's so transparent.

Why can't she slither back to Iran or Tehran and try to 'speak out' for the many voiceless females and fatherless/parentless children who throw bombs at each other. Why don't she try to psycho analyze why so many of her people and neighboring countrymen can't seem to get along and stop causing sinister-inhumane-mayhem for so many innocent black North Africans, and people all over the freaking world.

Ladies, consider the source... she looks weird and she's an idiot. She's just another smoke screening black woman hating con artist.

Anonymous said...

I'm not sure why you're constructing this strawman of the "bi*chy woman" that we, or anyone else, are trying to deem you or Wesley Snipes as not "real men" for rejecting.

That was hbc's implication on June 2, 2008 12:40 AM. That and her generalizations of "MOST black men".

hbc said...
Yeah, you may have your negative generalization of bw and they maybe the norm in your observations of us. I guess, it is what it is.


Exactly.

EmergingPhoenix said...

Although I definitely agree that snipes is not someone to waste your breath on, I love the use of his words to describe the connection some bw feel with wm. I have definitely felt that my relationships with wm, have been more engaging and fulfilling than any others. I think I share more values, ideals about relationships/dating, and overall goals and desires with wm. Bottom line is, my best relationships have been with wm.

I have to admit, that although I have dated other non-bm, I really havent made a good connection with any of them (at least not past friends). There tends to be an insurmountable difference in values, a bit of hesitancy, or a lack of chemistry (all that, barring the guy who is obviously experimenting or has obvious problems with race).

Anonymous said...

lol @ jason pulling up an article from askmen or from other obviously male-favored authors in support of his "point" that women = bad and men = good. hilariously stupid.

Aimee said...

Anonymous said...

I'm not sure why you're constructing this strawman of the "bi*chy woman" that we, or anyone else, are trying to deem you or Wesley Snipes as not "real men" for rejecting.

That was hbc's implication on June 2, 2008 12:40 AM. That and her generalizations of "MOST black men".


hbc did not say that you or anyone else is not a real man if they don't want a bi*chy woman, and neither did anyone else here. You're arguing against statements that wearn't made presumably because you can't argue with the ones that WERE made. Take the good advice that we offer here: just date who you want. Trust us--we won't mind a bit, and you'll be much happier.

M said...

I'm not sure why you're constructing this strawman of the "bi*chy woman" that we, or anyone else, are trying to deem you or Wesley Snipes as not "real men" for rejecting.

That was hbc's implication on June 2, 2008 12:40 AM. That and her generalizations of "MOST black men".

hbc said...
Yeah, you may have your negative generalization of bw and they maybe the norm in your observations of us. I guess, it is what it is.

Exactly.

--------------------------------
I believe she was just being sarcastic.

Jason said...

Anonymous said...
lol @ jason pulling up an article from askmen or from other obviously male-favored authors in support of his "point" that women = bad and men = good. hilariously stupid.


As if YOU don't pull "points" from female-favored authors. Plus, this man is not some pro-male activist, but rathers someone who deems himself an expert on attracting and pleasing women.

If you can't handle him, maybe you can handle this article, with some important parts in bold:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/men/article2764731.ece

But are there any broad differences between the sexes in the way that we argue? US research into marital stress on the heart has thrown up an intriguing finding about the way some are prone to “self-silencing” during arguments. The research by Elaine D. Eaker, published in Psychosomatic Medicine, found that more men than women had a tendency to bottle up their feelings during confrontations with their partners.

Tim Smith is a psychology professor at the University of Utah, whose own research has found indications that women’s heart health is affected adversely by quarrels and men’s when they feel they are losing control. There are clear indications, he says, that it is a male tactic to withdraw from arguments. “Women, on average, are more often in the role of the managers of relationship matters. They are often in the position of bringing up and pursuing things they would like to change. This is seen in wives making a request and pursuing it and husbands withdrawing and pulling back. The more of it a couple displays the weaker their relationship future is.”

John Gray, whose Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus is one of the most successful self-help books of all time, explains this male withdrawal process thus: “To avoid confrontation Martians may retire into their caves and never come out. This is like a cold war. They refuse to talk and nothing gets resolved.” He says that it is “passive aggressive behaviour” and Martians are “afraid of confrontation and would rather lie low and avoid talking about any topics that may cause an argument”.

Edward, 37, a freelance writer, says he is a practitioner of the withdrawal method. “I’m useless at arguing. I have things that bother me but when I finally say something I am too slow to win the argument. I’ll make an accusation about what I know is a pattern of behaviour that is hurtful for me. But then I’ll get asked to come up with examples and I’ll freeze. I don’t recall them. I can only launch in when I have all the evidence to back up my argument ready to use. I suppose I’m too lazy to do that. I think women, on the whole, are more practised at arguing, or more interested.”

Gray’s thesis is that the differences and disagreements between men and women don’t hurt so much as the ways in which we communicate them. “Most couples start out arguing about one thing and within five minutes are arguing about the way they are arguing.” The pattern he identifies involves a woman raising an issue, often asking rhetorical questions rather than being direct. The man, rightly or wrongly, hears disapproval. Men, according to Gray, are in great need of approval.

Feeling challenged, the man becomes focused on being right and forgets to be loving. The woman then becomes upset by his unloving delivery and defends herself from his sharpened expressions. Her tone becomes mistrusting and rejecting. Gray says that we need to remember that our partner objects not to what we are saying but how we are saying it.

Anonymous said...

I believe she was just being sarcastic.

I see no sarcasm.

knockoutchick said...

The majority of black people in America are suffering and burdened by dysfunction as a result of history and we have never been able to recover. Many of our relationships are not healthy or whole.

I wholeheartedly agree with GoldenAh being in a relationship and having dated primarily WM also prior...there is much more peace and calm.

I feel comfortable to speak freely. I am not a mean spirited person by any means..but I love to joke and I love a wee bit of sarcasm. I hate the feeling of having to choke back my words or expression for fear I might hurt someone's feelings or ego. Yes indeed it is relaxing.

My partner loves my sarcasm because he is comfortable within his own skin. He can joke about himself as well.

As I have pointed out before look at the recent activity of this board. The classic male behavior is passive aggressive. To agitate, to insinuate and wait for a reaction. Of course, the follow up is to play victim if they are responded to aggressively.

If a BW responds in anyway ...she is angry or threatening "the BM".

We have chosen to walk away from this "en nature". But you may be able to run...but cha can't hide. Even in cyberspace they hunt you down. Trying to kill the joy.....even on your entertainment spaces, they bring that energy back at cha!!!!

knockoutchick said...

A note about Mr. Snipes, though he made rather negative comments about BW years ago, he was able to go on to a lucrative film career and make many movies after said comments. So much money in fact, he felt the need to hide it from the IRS.

Let's say a young black female star made similiar comments about BM.

Would she go on to fame and fortune? Me thinks not. I think BM would drum her out of the business and she wouldn't even be able to get a job calling Bingo at a Buffalo Senior Citizens Center.

Yet did BWs hurt feelings cost Mr. Snipes any $$$. Not one dime...he's been living fabulously. The entertainment industry overall has not really listened to women in making green light or NO! decisions...maybe SATC will change that as it grossed so much cash.

But if men would speak negatively of a female star she could pack her bags. Ask Whoppi about it.

La ~ msviswan said...

Knockoutchick,

I agree with your points, look how black men dog black female celebs who don't even say anything negative about them (Serena W.) But it also puts me to wonder if black women's feelings and opinions have that much "power" in the white controlled media anyway.

In other words, Snipes said what he said, and yes he still made tons of money. But he said it against black women (the least protected), most of his fans/supporters who helped him make tons of money are not even black. Whoopi dates white men, yet she's still not protected by white controlled media. Just an observation.

Jason said...

I agree with your points, look how black men dog black female celebs who don't even say anything negative about them (Serena W.)

Black men dog Serena no more than black women dog Kobe. Actually, I rarely see black men dogging Serena at all.

Oprah is possibly the richest celebrity out there. Dogging black men hasn't hurt her career. Expressing a preference for white men hasn't hurt Rhianna's career.

The funny thing is that what Snipes said in 1991 was pro-black woman. By 1997, he was already established as a star and even then, he didn't dog black women out. Folks are going on the perception of what he said.

The classic male behavior is passive aggressive. To agitate, to insinuate and wait for a reaction.

You seem to not know the definition of "passive aggressive". "Passive aggressive" defines how a person resists abiding by requests or following directions without actually refusing to do so. A person who is passive-aggressive might take so long to get ready for an affair they do not wish to attend that the affair is nearly over by the time they arrive. And yes, men are commonly passive aggressive with their women.

But this has nothing to do with agitating, insinuating nor waiting for a reaction. You've just described what women typically do.

I'm not being passive aggressive on this board. I'm being "assertive" with my point of view. Different story. You are using terminology incorrectly.

knockoutchick said...

@ Jason

"Passive aggressive" defines how a person resists abiding by requests or following directions without actually refusing to do so.

Other posters have asked you to leave. I am asking you to leave...and yet you are still here. Aimee has challenged your posts...yet you are still here.

"I don't know what you are talking about I'm just a brother trying to have a conversation and combat stereotypes"

Please re-read the definition you posted.

Toodles :-)

knockoutchick said...

In regards to the posts about "softness" and being "light and easy", I can say this, I have generally been described as easy going, funny, friendly, etc.

I will say that it is my belief that the reason I have a generally open minded or positive view of men overall has to do with the fact that I have been generally treated well by the men I have dated. I have always been made to feel special. In my case, that special treatment has come primarily from WM.

But by being treated as "special" and made to feel as if I were unique and loved and deserving of love this helped me to have a positive outlook on life and love. True be it, I was already a positive person, but by having a positive partner or partners, that energy was multiplied.

It is easy to be "light and easy" or cheery when you feel valued.

As Mr. Snipes alluded to, coming home to negative energy can kill your spirit. And I have found overall in the black American community there is a overwhelming pessimism. What one can experience by being with an optimistic partner is an opening to all possibilities.

I am deeply concerned about how we as a community can open ourselves up.

Yet in my personal life it is pleasant to have experienced a certain peace, calm and support.

Evia said...

And I have found overall in the black American community there is a overwhelming pessimism.

I'm often struck by this too, but many AAs who are not pessimistic are often quiet. These tend to be the more "successful" AAs and lots of hate from other AAs is often directed at them, so they often stay to themselves and among each other in order not to attract attention. Remember that these days, "successful" blacks are considered to be a part of the 'enemy' camp.

I'm AA and I definitely was not born with a silver spoon in my mouth, to say the least. Instead, I've always tried to play the cards I've been dealt to the best of my ability. I have lots of optimism as regards myself and my family, and I try to surround myself with optimistic people of all groups who value me. When I've tried to explain my outlook on life and formula for "living well" to other AAs, many times they get angry and want to argue that I must have had advantages that they didn't have. LOL! This is simply not true and is just incredible to me because sometimes, some of them have had many more of the typical advantages. They've simply learned many of the lessons of victimology whereas I've refused to accept that stuff.

I have constantly warned my children about believing these debilitating messages because they must never internalize that they are victims due to their skin shade.

Another thing is that although AAs have immense combined financial wealth, we are disorganized and undisciplined, and as my minister said on Sunday, "freedom without discipline = chaos." I don't know whether he coined that phrase, but nothing is truer than that and that is exactly what we generally see in many spots in AA society. AAs are free to spend their $$$ however they choose, and we see CHAOS and genocidal, suicidal behavior. There is a massive suicide cult among a big slab of AAs.

IMO, there is no one else who deserves more fault for this in the year 2008 than AAs, but so many AAs will argue you down to the floor that 'de evil wm' keeps us from being disciplined and organized and forces us to give our money back to white folks and Asians. LOL! And you as a black person become the enemy if you continue to tell them that this is HYPE.

Many times, I hear so-called black leaders and influential black people in the community, church, media, blogosphere, authors, etc. teaching and preaching this "victimology." It boosts their status and is good for their pocketbooks, so they're not going to stop.

I constantly teach bw to stay away from predators and various inadequate men--NEVER that they are 'natural' or powerless victims of these men.

I do meet and know of other AAs who do NOT consider themselves "helpless victims" but they usually keep quiet about it and simply choose not to be around other AAs who want to shroud themselves in that victim's cloak.

It's totally possible that I just don't understand these wannabe victims, and I'm always open to learn something new, but it seems that these folks seem to like that victim role and seem to want other people, including other black people, to feel sorry for them. I want to scream at them sometimes that NOBODY CARES about victims--particularly the type of victim who seems to enjoy being a victim.

So now, we have a black nominee for president and already many AAs are lining up, expecting him to save them, instead of them being determined to LEARN how to become more disciplined and organized and then DOING it. I would expect him to impact the policies that keep structural racism in place, but no matter what he does, the advancement of the aggregate of AAs is going to be minimal if we don't become more disciplined, organized, break out of these self-limiting boxes, and take more responsibility for ourselves in 2008.

Aimee said...

knockoutchick said...

look at the recent activity of this board. The classic male behavior is passive aggressive. To agitate, to insinuate and wait for a reaction. Of course, the follow up is to play victim if they are responded to aggressively.

I myself planned to point out how much of the behavior that Mr. Snipes complained of (argumentiveness, combativeness, a lack of "pleasingness") is consistently displayed by the BM who frequent this board. Underlying much of their commentary is also a curious element of competiveness--as if, in recognizing how stigmatized BM are in our society, some BM have decided that the best way to combat their own marginalized status is to attempt to convince the world that BW are somehow worse.

Of course, this does nothing to improve their image or actually improve them; but it's as if by simply being able to point to some other group of people as either the source of blame for all their problems, or as an alternative focus for negative stereotyping (or both), makes them feel better somehow. This is the very definition of being "damaged" or "wounded" as Mr. Snipes described it, and lacking the tools to do anything other than attempt to project that damage outward.

Such actions cannot heal the damaged person--they can only spread the damage. This is the main reason that Halima and Evia (and you can add Wesley Snipes) warn so relentlessly about the danger of undertaking relationships with seriously damaged people: no amount of love or loyalty or uncritical support is going to nurture such persons back to health. Until they recognize themselves as grieveously wounded, and in need of healing, can they take action to heal themselves. The only smart thing a healthy, happy person can do is give such individuals wide berth.

Jason said...

Other posters have asked you to leave. I am asking you to leave...and yet you are still here. Aimee has challenged your posts...yet you are still here.

Being that I have no obligation to do anything that you say, nor have I given any indication that I accept such obligation, my continued comments would not amount to passive aggressiveness. Passive aggressiveness is a covert act whereas someone reluctantly agrees to something and then undermines it by using some excuse to not follow through.

But if you disagree, then Knockoutchick, please do not post another comment on this blog. Just go away.

Now the the next comment that you make means that you are being passive aggressive.

I myself planned to point out how much of the behavior that Mr. Snipes complained of (argumentiveness, combativeness, a lack of "pleasingness") is consistently displayed by the BM who frequent this board. Underlying much of their commentary is also a curious element of competiveness--as if, in recognizing how stigmatized BM are in our society, some BM have decided that the best way to combat their own marginalized status is to attempt to convince the world that BW are somehow worse.

Well, I have not been combative. As far as argumentative, I have simply debated points. I guess that according to you, Obama should never have criticized or debated Hillary Clinton. As far as "pleasing", that your man's responsibility. My woman expects me to be "pleasing" to her and only her and that is a request I willfully abide by.

Wesley Snipes was speaking of behavior between intimates, not a discussion on a message board. The comparison you make is clearly off key. It is a prime example of how women argue against double standards until such double standards benefit them. I debate men all across the internet, but according to you, I shouldn't debate women? So the time I debated a female white supremist on a white supremist blog, you would say that I'm being "unpleasing"? Give me a break.

I'll open a door for you. I'll pull out a chair for you. I'll do the heavy lifting for you. I'll give up my chair for you, give you my coat, defend you against attack, etc. etc., but man woman or child, if you say something that I disagree with in an open forum, I will counter it and it has nothing to do with any marginalization.

And to tell you the truth, what this discussion shows is that with women, you can rarely have a civil, rational exchange of views without you resorting to emotion driven ad hominem arguments. From Wikipedia:

An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin: "argument to the man", "argument against the man") consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the person making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim. The process of proving or disproving the claim is thereby subverted, and the argumentum ad hominem works to change the subject.

Anonymous said...

Jason
And to tell you the truth, what this discussion shows is that with women, you can rarely have a civil, rational exchange of views without you resorting to emotion driven ad hominem arguments.


Congratulations for proving yourself a sexist!

Aimee said...

Jason said...

Wesley Snipes was speaking of behavior between intimates, not a discussion on a message board.

He was talking about what makes people attractive as mates and intimate partners, or simply fellow human beings. Healthy, happy people conduct themselves as such regardless of where they are or who they are interacting with, even when they disagree with or dislike the person(s) they are interacting with.

Indeed, if someone reveals themselves to be willfully unhealthy and unhappy, and devoted to projecting their unhappiness outward, the healthful response is simply to withdraw from their presence, which is why I rarely bother to respond to you. It isn't merely that your arguments are generally too hackneyed and unoriginal to merit much of a response; it is primarily that your very presence here for the sole purpose of arguing, complaining, being disagreeable and divisive, reveals the very "wounds" to which Mr. Snipes refers.

I am not a therapist, and I cannot help you with those wounds. Perhaps some people here are therapeutic professionals, and thus believe they can help you; or simply think that being compassionate or open-minded means entertaining you. But the reality is that life is too short, and our energy is too precious, to waste parrying juvenile provocations and whining.

mekare said...

Jason,

I don't understand why you want fairness. You're not going to get it and are not entitled to it. This is called black girls haven. People talk about black men to learn how to cope with their stank behaviors. No one really gives a damn about how you feel, your life, your opinions, ect. You have no idea how much of a burden black men are. Just, go crawl back into your hole. No one gives a f*ck. Good riddance.

Jason said...

Aimee said...

He was talking about what makes people attractive as mates and intimate partners, or simply fellow human beings.


He whole point was what one has to come home to.

Healthy, happy people conduct themselves as such regardless of where they are or who they are interacting with, even when they disagree with or dislike the person(s) they are interacting with.

And based on the way that several respond on this board, there is a lack of healthy, happy people on this site.

Indeed, if someone reveals themselves to be willfully unhealthy and unhappy, and devoted to projecting their unhappiness outward, the healthful response is simply to withdraw from their presence, which is why I rarely bother to respond to you.

No, you rarely respond to me because you cannot formulate rational counters that can be backed up by facts. You wait until you are frustrated enough and you then throw out the ad hominems (and apparently you have begun to delete posts).

It isn't merely that your arguments are generally too hackneyed and unoriginal to merit much of a response;

It actually is not that at all.

it is primarily that your very presence here for the sole purpose of arguing, complaining, being disagreeable and divisive, reveals the very "wounds" to which Mr. Snipes refers.

All I've actually done is make counter points. The bitching has come from your side of the argument. Clearly, there are many wounds here. I've actually lived a good life and continue to do so. Unfortunately, I'm dealing with the wounded when I come here and the wounded tend to not be rational.

I am not a therapist, and I cannot help you with those wounds. Perhaps some people here are therapeutic professionals, and thus believe they can help you; or simply think that being compassionate or open-minded means entertaining you. But the reality is that life is too short, and our energy is too precious, to waste parrying juvenile provocations and whining.

You live in a world of delusion. How about dealing with the subject matter as opposed to your clearly emotion based personal accusations? Because the fact is that I have debunked so much of the falsehoods you throw out, it is not even nice.

Jason said...

LOL @ mekare.

mekare said...

K you win jason. See yah later.

SHE said...

I think it's time for us to tune this nut-job(Jason)out. It's really sad how some people don't have a life. If he has a problem with bw...fine. Why waste energy on us? He should only deal with non-bw just like Wesley Snipes has decided to and leave us alone.

Aimee said...

Clearly, there are many wounds here. I've actually lived a good life and continue to do so. Unfortunately, I'm dealing with the wounded when I come here and the wounded tend to not be rational.

This really says it all. WE are wounded, WE are not rational, YOU are happy--yet YOU continue to seek US out. I wouldn't have the foggiest idea of how to reach "Jason," nor do I have even the slightest interest in doing so; I seriously doubt if anyone else here does either, even if they occasionally engage you as a diversion. I'm sorry if you genuinely puzzled by what's wrong with this picture--a person haunting a blog with plaints and arguments when no one there is particularly interested in hearing from him.

EmergingPhoenix said...

@the ladies - This is why I just ignored jason. They have a counter for everything (there always is one, and it doesn't make you intelligent to know that, just resourceful).

I think that all of these boards will soon have a heavy load of angry, damaged bm or people indentifying as such, simply due to an increase in joblessness. Can you imagine, someone who was just laid off, angry at the world, and looking for someone to blame, or make as miserable as them.

I haven't heard anything new or helpful from all of the dissenters. Their only purpose is to moderate you on your own board; take potshots at people who they deem damaged, which is showing of weak character to begin with. It's funny, that jason purports that we are damaged, and instead of showing us understanding he throws more venom in our face. I think the pathology is clear, and I know it is tempting to counter such obvious nonsense, but you can not reason with the irrational. It is a waste of time and energy, and it pulls you down into the abyss they reside in. As everyone has said, he wouldn't be here arguing, not providing any real advice or direction for his counter, and simply just injecting venom, if he wanted to have an intelligent and peaceful discourse.

Sandra77 said...

I think Jason thinks his arguments are somehow "deep" and new - LOL. We've heard them all before - we didn't buy them then and we're not buying them now. But Jason's time is his own to waste. I read his first post, and based on the quality of that post, I've just scrolled past his remaining posts. I don't do eye or ear pollution.

Sandra77 said...

I think Jason thinks his arguments are somehow "deep" and new - LOL. We've heard them all before - we didn't buy them then and we're not buying them now. But Jason's time is his own to waste. I read his first post, and based on the quality of that post, I've just scrolled past his remaining posts. I don't do eye or ear pollution.

mekare said...

"This is why I just ignored jason."

My issue is that people like jason and the argumentative anonymous poster aren't easily ignored. They are very irritating are obnoxious, smug and just a pain in the *ss.

You're reading an interesting discussion on reinterpreting Wesley Snipes thoughts about black women and then you have to see these annoying comments from some manipulative wannabe intellectual.

Then in another post the same person tries to prove that black women are more likely to abuse their children.

The stuff is tired. Then the same folks have the nerve to desire fairness, the nerve to want to have “rational” discussion and get “Dr. Phil” on someone when their behavior does not warrant that type of treatment. After a while my attitude is “here is a cookie…can you gtfoh now?”

knockoutchick said...

You know how it is when you are trying to calm down a toddler and you place them in their room and close the door for a time out, but they keep banging their head on the door again and again and again...until finally you open the door for fear they will hurt themselves.

Add on a few years of education.

knockoutchick said...

Speaking of the man who inspired this thread and...

....of self importance and arrogance....what would lead you to believe you could evade paying taxes?

Could it be NO ONE else before Mr. Snipes thought of ways to keep all of their hard earned cash out of the hands of the government? And where are they now????

Long tax evasion sentences seem to be one of the governments favorite ways to jail people that try to challenge them.

He'll have a lot of time to practice his martial arts and weight lifting now.

EmergingPhoenix said...

Ya know Mekare, I feel you. I realize they are not easy to ignore, especially on a board that you have to at least partially read, just to begin to realize it is vitriol. I really understand the frustration you are feeling, but you can not let it bother you. That is their goal. I am sending you big cyber hugs. LOL, I know it sounds cheesy, but we really need to afford each other some understanding. If he really is bothering you, then it is time to take a reading break and/or seek out a friend for some postive stimulation.

It is unfortunate that we have to deal with this, even in places that are so called "havens" (that is NOT a slight at you Aimee).

However, the discussion was very interesting, and I really did love the use of snipes words to explain what bw desire and need as well. That was brilliant IMHO!! I think that was what really bothered the naysayer, b/c it wasnt bashing bm at all.

Jason said...

"Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people." -- Eleanor Roosevelt

What have the ladies discussed in the last 12 posts? A person (and one they know nothing about). It's quite telling.

gatamala said...

Interesting post Aimee. I've wondered if my desire to look elsewhere is because I'm tired of having to support a weak, wounded ego. I don't want to come home to someone who blames all of their failures on yt and ME!!! Who doesn't need a break? But by the same token, I don't want to have to teach Black 101 under my own roof.

I think that all of these boards will soon have a heavy load of angry, damaged bm or people indentifying as such, simply due to an increase in joblessness.

This is sad, but funny at the same time.

HBC said...

I remember watching this horrible talk show some years ago that use to air on (gasp)...BET(I stopped tuning in also l0 years ago). Well, the topic was "interracial dating" and one of their guest was a ww, who was in a irr with a bm. The hosts who were bw asked her, "what was the difference between dating a wm and a bm. She responded to the question with an analogy. In her analogy, she used the wash cycle of a washing machine: white men were the "permanent press cycle" (you could just take them out of the wash and throw them on) while black men were the "delicate cycle"(more fragile(egos) and they had to be handled with much care).

I was young at the time but I got what she meant especially, when I made the comparison myself and saw that this was very true. I have dated bm and wm. My exprience with bm, I have always had to be on guard and their was always this tention between us. I am easy going and soft spoken so, it was immediately assumed that I was submissive but they eventually discovered that this was not the case. I don't become combative or agrumentative. I just walk away from the situation and sever all tides with them because I refuse to allow any man to take me out of my peacful way of being. I don't like entertain nonsense and drama in my life.

As black women, I think we often feel that we have to be hard around bm or on guard so that they won't dominant us because they do try really hard to (at least that's how I have often felt). In my experience, with wm it has been very easy and nurturing. I can go out with them and not worry that I have to pay for my own dinner(if a man asks you out on a date he should pay. Period) or having to be pressured for sex just because he financed the entire date(horrible). I don't have to feel that I have to hide my achievements or intelligence so that he won't feel threated. I can just be myself and be appreciated for the mentally and emotionally strong and independent black women(this doesn't make you masculine in anyway) that I am without having to apologize for it.

I believe it's a cultural difference. Our cultural has to change, we as bw have to start calling bm out on their sexist behavior, the way women in the white culture have done and continue to do. I do have to give it to white women on that front.

Anonymous said...

As black women, I think we often feel that we have to be hard around bm or on guard so that they won't dominant us because they do try really hard to (at least that's how I have often felt).

The problem with this is that from what I've observed, African American women tend to act hardest when with your more easy going men and less hard when with your more domineering men.

Delishmish said...

Jason said...
"Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people." -- Eleanor Roosevelt

What have the ladies discussed in the last 12 posts? A person (and one they know nothing about). It's quite telling.

June 5, 2008 8:23 PM

....................

Since you appear to like "quotes" from long dead people. Here is one for you to chew on.(below)

"Absence makes the heart grow fonder"

William Shakespeare

It's quite TELLING..don't YOU think?

Jason said...

Delishmish said...
Since you appear to like "quotes" from long dead people. Here is one for you to chew on.(below)

"Absence makes the heart grow fonder"

William Shakespeare

It's quite TELLING..don't YOU think?


Being that the quote denotes the strengthened love bonds between separated lovers, I find it telling, yet understandable that you consider me to be your lover.

knockoutchick said...

Aimee said....
"I myself planned to point out how much of the behavior that Mr. Snipes complained of (argumentiveness, combativeness, a lack of "pleasingness") is consistently displayed by the BM who frequent this board. Underlying much of their commentary is also a curious element of competiveness--as if, in recognizing how stigmatized BM are in our society, some BM have decided that the best way to combat their own marginalized status is to attempt to convince the world that BW are somehow worse."

KOC says:

Aimee ...so true. Your words just popped in my head today.

Never any self reflection or self awareness on their part...everything is always somebody else's fault.

If we look to the past, maybe years ago our grand mothers and great grandmothers HAD to put up with the aggressiveness and the anger that resulted from that "marginalized status" and sit quietly. Yet our mothers spoke up about unfair or biased behaviour...and a rift occurred never to be mended.

We evolved from Yes-Women to bitches in one fell swoop and not going back!!!

I remember as a girl listening to a particular older male relative go on long winded diatribes about ridiculous subjects, make dimwitted analogies and just plain stupid comments. Somehow even at 7 years old, I knew he was an idiot. Yet, the older women would just smile, prepare his food, nod in agreement and wait until he and his buddies left for the REAL conversation to start.

It seems to me younger women are not open to that gender role playing.

And WM seem more comfortable with an equal and truthful level of discourse. I am not saying they like it...just hey are more open or used to it by now.

Delishmish said...

Aah Jason...

There is indeed hope for you yet..

You APPEAR to have a great sense of humor...and hubris too...but I feel compelled to assure you I am not thinking of you in romantic terms...for all I know you could be a 500 pound man (or woman) sitting in his grandma's apartment, waiting for the paramedics to hoist him (her) out of the window...and in the meantime, trolls around various sites having "discussions" @ great "ideas"...

It(absence makes the heart grow fonder) is now so widely used as an expression that it has surpassed its original intention...now it just means simply..

"go away, and let many many moons pass before you return"

still though..lol

JaliliMaster said...

Jason, you are sooooo foolish, I actually found your idiocy rather amusing. As I tried to read each subsequent post from you, things just got more and more ridiculous!

You make general statements about bw, then supply us with OPINIONS from others about women in general, yet try to somehow make these comments that were made about ALL women to somehow only apply to bw.

With all the stupidity you have displayed on this post and on previous ones, I am surprised(not really), that you would have the audacity to ask for 'kindness'. Dude, your an idiot! Aimee I know you don't like such language on you site, but I just couldn't resist.

Jason, get a clue.......go the effing hell away!

Aimee's post was about viewing Snipes comments from a different perspective than has been looked at previously. Yet you decided to even turn that around. You....are....a....prick. Go shrivel up and rot! I have no desire to further entertain an of your sexist rants and your chip-on-the-shoulder attitude.

JaliliMaster said...

And I agree with the comment that was made by another poster. Weblack women need to start vocalising the sexism in the 'black comunity'. We should not expect anyone else to do it for us.

On another note, we may not want to admit it, but alot of bw do confuse being loud and aggressive as being a 'strong, independent...etc'. I have even, on more than one occasion, heard a bw say that her 'attitude' is confidence. Sisters, IT IS NOT! That so-called, mythical attitude that we bw are claimed to posses (and some do), comes from a place of low self-esteem. It is an issue most bw are not willing to address.

There was a post from someone, I think hbc that I will reply to:

"I was watching Tyra's show last week and topic was about; Why is it that 70% of black women are single? There were black men on the panel and in the audience. Tyra asked several of the bm there why they chose to be in relationships with non-black women? The most common response was that; they found those women easier to get along with and they did what they were told. In other words, they could control these non-black women but I couldn't control black women. Only one bm in the audience expressed not having a problem with bw, only one."

For starters, I refuse to use something seen on Tyras(she is a hack) show as truly representative of bm in ir relationships. However, I have seen alot of bw try to blame those bm's tendency to date non-bw on their incapability to handle a 'strong' bw. I don't know why so many of us(bw) are so willing to believe that these non-bw they are dating are weak. Please believe me, most of them are not, despite how better it may make some bw to feel otherwise.
-----------------------------

"In my experience with black men, I have always found them to be extremely; sexist, miscogynistic and chauvinistic. They only want women in whom they can control and dominate. They aren't interested in finding an equal partner. Most black men want a woman who will walk behind them and not beside them. They have no problem verbalizing this even in a public forum and in this day and age...too(horrible). They are for some reason not made to feel ashamed or see their attitude as degrading to women. It seems that, no one has ever pulled their coat regarding their narrow minded view of women. What are they...cavemen?"

I do agree with you that bw are, on average, more sexist than other races of men(in the west), but seriosly, how many truly vocal feminists/womanist do you find in the bc. We cannot keep on moaning about sexism, yet expect someone else to fight it for us. There is a hoard of bf-feminists, but most don't get any support(real support) in the bc, even from bw who somehow feel that bm would get 'angry' at them(true), the way majority of ww stand up and support white feminists. For example, look at the treatment of Alice Walker. Every word this woman spoke was true, yet what did she get from the bc? Anger! Not because they believed she was lying, they knew she wasn't. Their complaint was that she was making bm look bad. This woman actually ended up needing police protection. Oprah, as far as I know, is the only one who came out to PUBLICLY support and defend this woman. The other bw who supported her initially......silence!
-------------------------

"As a strong independent black women, I have always been proud of wearing this title and I have never seen it as a double edged sword because that's the women I am and was raised to be. I date white men exclusively and they have always said to me that two of the many qualities they love and admire about black women are our strength and independence. The very same FINE qualities that bm despise in us, men of other races seem to celebrate. I have heard the same responses from hispanic men and asian men. None of the wm I've dated have ever asked me to take the back seat to them and they have always respected the women I am and have never rejected me for that."

So your dating white men exclusively is somehow more noble than the bm who date non-black women exclusively? Please stop using a different yardstick. You dismiss majority of the bm in irr, saying they are only with those women because they couldn't handle you, yet you are able to somehow rationalise your being in an an irr? Did you ever stop to think that the same way you feel that those wm are easier to get along with, is the same way those bm feel that those ww are easier to get along with? I will call bm out on their bulshit anyday, but please quit the double standard. I'm surprised(not really) that no one else on this board had any problem with it.
-----------------------------

"I love being a strong independent black women. I have always believed these are the charactertics of a bw that makes us unique and wonderful while endearing us to other men(real men)."

Now, it's comments like these that really get my goat. I am yet to receive the memo that said all bw were the same. That we all hae the same temperament, the same personality, etc, because that is what you are implying.
--------------------------

"These characteristics should be celebrated not look at as a burden or negative because sexist bm see them as a threat to their manhood. We don't need men like this in our lives."

You will just as easily find wm, am, hm just as you will bm, who are threatened by an independent woman. I don't know why you are so quick to put it all on bm, yet act as if sexist wm don't exist. Honey, they do!
----------------------------

"As black women we should wake up and stop blaming ourselves for why bm have left us."

This 'us' thing again. Nobodu has left me! If you feel abandoned by bm, then so be it. Stop trying to drag every other bw on this planet into the same boat you are in. Bm never left me. If they left you, too bad. I never blamed myself for why bm 'left' anybody. If you did, that should be you own problem and your alone!
----------------------

"As far as, I'm concerned other women can have them because I refuse to be any man's doormat or someone he can control."

But didn't you just go on about black men 'leavin "us"'. If you were so okay with other women having them, you wouldn't have so bothered about them 'leaving' in the first place.
----------------------

"I have worked too hard and too long to become my own woman. The man I want to share my life with has to allow me, to be all that I am and if he can't, then I don't need him."

You're right, you don't.
----------------------

JaliliMaster said...

To jason, there are two options. Either you are with a bw or with a non-bw. If your partner is black, then I truly feel sorry for her, for the fact that her partner has such silly views of bw. For her own good, I hope she susses you out.

If you partner is not black, then I don't know why you have this obsession with bw. What the hell are you doing on this site? Or did you not see the site name?!

Ofcourse, if your claim that you are in a relationship is false, then there is a third option: No woman has been foolish enough to look at you twice!

Jason said...

To jason, there are two options. Either you are with a bw or with a non-bw.

bw

If your partner is black, then I truly feel sorry for her, for the fact that her partner has such silly views of bw. For her own good, I hope she susses you out.

Well, I would hope she already has. She married me years ago.

Anonymous said...

I do agree with you that bw are, on average, more sexist than other races of men(in the west), but seriosly, how many truly vocal feminists/womanist do you find in the bc.

Did you mean "bm"? Are you familiar with the "machismo" culture of Hispanic men? African American men are not even close to Hispanic men when it comes to sexism. Black men don't even compare to the sexism of Asian American men.

You all seem to confuse black male assertiveness toward women with sexism. Black men are less inclined to embrace traditional gender roles than other groups of men. Please explain to me where ya'll get the idea of black men being so sexist.

And how about black female sexism. Is it ok for a man to cry? Not in the black community. Let a black woman see her man cry and he becomes the biggest punk in the world to her. Let a black man be sensitive and see how little she respects him. Black women are more sexist than black men.

Kim! said...

Greetings!

Great post. The reframing of Snipes's motivations to focus on why bw may share the same feelings as Snipes and bm is like fresh air.

I understand much of the frustrations shared here. People have been hurt on very intimate levels in relationships with people who 'look like them.' Not wanting to date someone 'damaged' (boy do I hate that word when applied to human beings lol) makes sense and no one should have to make sacrifices like that to maintain some sort of cheap & easy loyalty to the bc. However, I feel many of the commentators here are generalizing about bm.

It's a little odd to attribute 'lightness' to wm while casting bm as the burden-carriers. There is a certain kind of subtle hypocrisy employed in these types of conversations because we can see the problems of others yet not how we've contributed with our own baggage.

And maybe it's from having hung around wp in social settings, but they also seem to carry lots of baggage. Though it may be different, it's still pretty heavy. I have encountered misogyny among bm, but if wm were so much better, why are there so many white feminists? So, I can see why a bm reading this might become a little incensed. But coming here and using illogical, sexist claims to throw at bw is not the best way to point out inconsistencies especially when it's not a convo meant for you. Arguing words like 'strong' 'independent' 'bitchy' also blocks any meaningful way towards mutual understanding because we're coming here with our own definitions.

Aimee said...

Sandra77 said...

I think Jason thinks his arguments are somehow "deep" and new - LOL. We've heard them all before - we didn't buy them then and we're not buying them now.

That's sort of a constant challenge on blogs and message boards--people discover an ongoing conversation, get upset, jump in and respond with some tired argument that has long been throughly discredited, without understanding that everyone else has already progressed beyond the point where they're still stuck many moons ago. Then they insist that people are too "intimidated" to engage them, when actually, they're too bored to engage them, especially when there are genuinely interesting and novel ideas being shared by others.

I know many posters find it to be dull, irritating noise pollution, but I think, as you suggest, the best response is just to scroll on by once you recognize what you're dealing with. There's no harm in letting people talk to themselves sometimes.

HBC said...

"So your dating white men exclusively is somehow more noble than the bm who date non-black women exclusively? Please stop using a different yardstick. You dismiss majority of the bm in irr, saying they are only with those women because they couldn't handle you, yet you are able to somehow rationalise your being in an an irr?..."

__________________________________
Jamilimaster,

I respect your opinions and you're entitled to them and that also extents out to Jason, Anon and anyone else posting comments on this blog.

I don't care or give a damn about bm and who they choose to date. I was just using the "Tyra Show" as a springboard to illustrate and discuss how sexist MOST bm are. In fact, I have never been in a romantic relationship with a bm. Yes, I have had inneractions with them and I have gone out on the dates with them. I have even had platonic bm friends. I am not attracted to bm physically. But, I am surrounded by them in the community I reside in. So, I have to deal them on almost a daily basis, even if I don't want to.

I'll tell you this, I wish I never had to deal any of them. Of course, accept for the bm in my family.

Peace

Jason said...

It's interesting Aimee that you claim someone to be upset simply because they expressed in a civil way an opposing point of view. A true sign of folks being upset is when they respond with personal attacks and insults. Take a look at your blog and see who has been doing what.

You claim that folks jump in with long discredited arguments, yet you cannot identify where any such arguments have been discredited. You simply make the claim as you make so many claims because you want folks to believe it without actually proving it. So instead of presenting evidence, you constantly preach it over and over. It's like a low level attempt at brainwashing.

And its not that there is any insistence that people engage me. I have been thoroughly engaged throughout this blog. My point is that if you are going to engage me, logically you would engage the argument instead of engaging some lame speculation of who and what I am personally. That's a sign of ignorance and I would hope that you and your cohorts are better than that.

Jason said...

HBC said...
I am not attracted to bm physically.


So you consider dark skin, nappy hair, and broad features to be unappealing?

HBC said...

HBC said...
I am not attracted to bm physically.

So you consider dark skin, nappy hair, and broad features to be unappealing?

-------------------------------
Jason,

Not all bm fit this physical description. I used "physically" but I really wanted to say "sexually" and I'll even throw in "mentally" and "emotionally" too. Not attracted.

Jason said...

Not all bm fit this physical description. I used "physically" but I really wanted to say "sexually" and I'll even throw in "mentally" and "emotionally" too. Not attracted.

Well let me ask yout this. These characteristics of black men you don't like. What would be your response if I said "I have always believed these are the charactertics of a bm that makes us unique and wonderful while endearing us to other women(real women)"?

HBC said...

Not all bm fit this physical description. I used "physically" but I really wanted to say "sexually" and I'll even throw in "mentally" and "emotionally" too. Not attracted.

Well let me ask yout this. These characteristics of black men you don't like. What would be your response if I said "I have always believed these are the charactertics of a bm that makes us unique and wonderful while endearing us to other women(real women)"?

_______________________________

Jason,

I think it is pathetic and tragic that you and so many other black men think that the only good thing you have going for you is your "phyisical appearance" and "sexual prowess". If most of you concentrated more on developing yourselves mentally intellectually and emotionally you would probably be more respected and seen as more valuable in this society.

This argument has become quite tiresome, please go find someone else to entertain your nonsense.

knockoutchick said...

On another note, we may not want to admit it, but alot of bw do confuse being loud and aggressive as being a 'strong, independent...etc'. I have even, on more than one occasion, heard a bw say that her 'attitude' is confidence. Sisters, IT IS NOT!

@ Jalilimaster
The tone of many of your posts are so aggressive they border on threatening.

I have posted many times about this behavior in some BW. I have said I believe they behave this way because they have not had the benefit of any support or protection...so they seek to lash out at those around them. They are always on the attack.

Women who carry that anger and pain are eventually eaten alive by it.

knockoutchick said...

"It's a little odd to attribute 'lightness' to wm while casting bm as the burden-carriers. There is a certain kind of subtle hypocrisy employed in these types of conversations because we can see the problems of others yet not how we've contributed with our own baggage."

Hey Kimi!

Great post...a snippet above.

Being in an IRR does not excuse you from relationship issues...it's just that you get a NEW set of issues. And I think that is what many people find appealing. You want to get away from the burdens that you are familiar with....and then even though you have new concerns with your new partner, that's OK. You just want to avoid what has been tormenting you in the past.

For instance I am so annoyed by hair issues, I don't want to hear comments about my nappy hair from my partner. I like my nappy hair. It has been my experience WM don't make as many comments about hair...therefore a better fit for me.

Taking it even a step further. I understand Mr. Snipes spends the majority of his time in his wives native Korea.

knockoutchick said...

"You all seem to confuse black male assertiveness toward women with sexism. Black men are less inclined to embrace traditional gender roles than other groups of men."

You do have a point Anon.

Let me clarify my point. I hate what we may call "assertiveness toward women". I hate that swagger I see some men display...walking in front of me blocking my path, standing like peacocks to FORCE me to engage them. Strutting around like peacocks assuming I must want to speak with them. Looking at me in a very familiar way. The outrageous arrogance and supposed "knowing". I can't take it.

As far as sexism. I would say there is less actual sexism towards BW, than pure disregard and lack of concern.

Hispanic men do parade around like peacocks and show the "swagger"...yet they there is a much greater value placed on children, family and marriage.

HBC said...

On another note, we may not want to admit it, but alot of bw do confuse being loud and aggressive as being a 'strong, independent...etc'. I have even, on more than one occasion, heard a bw say that her 'attitude' is confidence. Sisters, IT IS NOT!
___________________________________

Jalilimaster,

I agree. My definition of being "strong" and "independent" has nothing to do with being "loud" and "aggressive", having a "bad attitude" or "being masculine".

My definition of a strong(mentally and emotionally) and independent woman is one who knows who she is and what she wants out of life. She isn't falling apart because she needs someone to take care of her financially and emotionally but she also should know when she needs help and should ask for it but she is not depended on it. So, she doesn't have to answer to anyone but herself. She can hold her own in the world and not fall apart at the slightest obstacle that gets in her way, especially man.

I have heard the terms "strong and "independent" used to descibe women of other races and what usually comes to mind are the attributes I described in the 2nd paragraph. When they are referred to a "strong" and "independent", it never seems to take on a negative connotation unless it is attributed to bw. I think the definitions of these terms have become distorted and demonized by the black community in an effort to put and keep bw in our place.

In fact, watch "The Bacherette" tonight on ABC and you will hear the wm on the show constantly referring to this ww as "strong" and "independent" with admiration and respect. Hence the difference.

Like I said in a prior post, women who are agrumentative, loud and combative are suffering from severe emotional issues. Period.

knockoutchick said...

Regarding assertiveness and swagger...

The same behavior I find appalling, I do see my white GFs find interesting...... so there you go. It's a brave new world.

Jason said...

I think it is pathetic and tragic that you and so many other black men think that the only good thing you have going for you is your "phyisical appearance" and "sexual prowess".

Where was any such comment or implication made? You said that you don't find the characteristics of black men to be appealing, whether those characteristics are mental, physical, emotional, etc. On the other hand, you said that those black men who don't find the mental, physical or emotional characteristics of black women to be appealing are not "real men". So why the double standard? Why can't I equally say that you are not a "real woman"?

Don't you see how you vigorously stereotype? You have assigned something to me that I have never proclaimed simply because I am a black man. I don't even know what specifically entails having sexual prowess. That's some vague term right there on the level of "strong black woman". It's some term thrown out there that is vague in definition.

People are individuals. Strength is individual. It would be stupid for me to say that most black women are strong and most white women or Asian women or Hispanic women are not. The term "strong black man" has similarly been thrown around. What does it mean? Usually it has been thrown around to give positivity to truculence. The most easy going of people can likewise be the strongest.

You said that you were not PHYSICALLY attracted to black men and was wondering how you could express lesser attractiveness to the same physical features that black women generally share.

If most of you concentrated more on developing yourselves mentally intellectually and emotionally you would probably be more respected and seen as more valuable in this society.

The funny thing is that those of us who do this get the least attention in this society. I was a bookworm throughout school and the black girls didn't value that very much. I attended an HBCU and was an honor student throughout, yet that wasn't valued much at all by the black women who attended. I played football in college. That was valued. I worked out and was quite muscular and athletic. That was valued. I was not big on partying, didn't join a fraternity and I didn't drink. That was not valued.

In the long run, there were black women who appreciated me and were very interested, and I gave most of my attention to them, yet the players had far more to choose from. As the years past, those women who chased them ended up pregnant, and alone and actually express more enthusiasm about me now than ever before even though I am totally unavailable. I found somebody who was smart from the get go. That is what I continue to hold on to.

Jason said...

knockoutchick said...

You do have a point Anon.

Let me clarify my point. I hate what we may call "assertiveness toward women". I hate that swagger I see some men display...walking in front of me blocking my path, standing like peacocks to FORCE me to engage them. Strutting around like peacocks assuming I must want to speak with them. Looking at me in a very familiar way. The outrageous arrogance and supposed "knowing". I can't take it.

As far as sexism. I would say there is less actual sexism towards BW, than pure disregard and lack of concern.

Hispanic men do parade around like peacocks and show the "swagger"...yet they there is a much greater value placed on children, family and marriage.


You know, I think that you basically knocked it out of the park with this post. I couldn't agree more. Yes, there is overemphasis among black men with regard to "swagger" and sexual assertiveness. I also agree that there is a "pure disregard and lack of concern" for women in general. I agree with you and the anon that these things, while negative, are actually quite the opposite of sexism.

Sexism is synonymous with chauvinism, whereas women are viewed as subordinate to men. With black men in the U.S., women are generally viewed equally and similarly to the way black men view other men. Thus, you will have few chairs held out, few doors held open, few seats given up, few loads being carried, etc. for women. Black men's relationships with women have become dog-eat-dog and competitive. The sense of protection is dying.

To me, this is simply the extreme result of a near elimination of sexism. We see the trend happening with other groups and black people seem to be the canaries in the mine. Negative trends tend to affect us first and worst.

Hispanic men are family oriented, yet view the man as dictator of the home. That is true sexism and sexism is quite common among white conservative men.

arthur said...

... sexism is quite common among white conservative men...

Well, if holding doors, carrying the heavy things, picking up the check, protecting and caring for women is the definition of 'sexism', I'd have to say you've got a point.

ButI don't see any logical connection between the above behaviors and a dictatorial home style.

daphne said...

The funny thing is that those of us who do this get the least attention in this society. I was a bookworm throughout school and the black girls didn't value that very much. I attended an HBCU and was an honor student throughout, yet that wasn't valued much at all by the black women who attended. I played football in college. That was valued. I worked out and was quite muscular and athletic. That was valued. I was not big on partying, didn't join a fraternity and I didn't drink. That was not valued.

Question for you, jason - is it possible that the pool of women to which you were attracted to didn't value those things vs most of the black women on campus (which you implied)? I ask because a similar argument could be flipped around (in terms of gender). Such as:

The funny thing is that those of us who do this get the least attention in this society. I was a bookworm throughout school and the black guys didn't value that very much. I attended an HBCU and was an honor student throughout, yet that wasn't valued much at all by the black men who attended. I wasn't on the dance team/cheerleading squad/insert popular activity. That was valued. I wasn't a girl who constantly wore sexy clothing and/or had the "small waist, booty in your face" body. That was valued. I was not big on partying, didn't join a sorority and I didn't drink. That was not valued.

What's unspoken is that those things were not valued.....by the pool of individuals to whom I was attracted.

mekare said...

Jason,

Has it occured that sometimes black women want to get away from black men???

Delishmish said...

arthur said:

Well, if holding doors, carrying the heavy things, picking up the check, protecting and caring for women is the definition of 'sexism', I'd have to say you've got a point.

........................

Hi Arthur..:-)

If that is sexism..SIGN ME UP...
I appreciate that statement Arthur..and I like my guy to do all those things..it matters not a lick to me if he is a conservative, even if I am not...a man is a man, and those are things that men are supposed to do..I am glad you got it right...

nice to see you here btw...come visit..:-)
DM

Jason said...

Question for you, jason - is it possible that the pool of women to which you were attracted to didn't value those things vs most of the black women on campus (which you implied)?

Nope, since what I considered attractive was generally different from what the majority considered attractive. So what I found attractive has no bearing on the general consensus of what is attractive. What I observed (and what most young black men observe) is that women have a strong tendency to desire and value those men who are popular in the social in-club in as much as men have a strong tendency to desire those women who are viewed as the top physical beauties.

I ask because a similar argument could be flipped around (in terms of gender). Such as:

The funny thing is that those of us who do this get the least attention in this society. I was a bookworm throughout school and the black guys didn't value that very much. I attended an HBCU and was an honor student throughout, yet that wasn't valued much at all by the black men who attended. I wasn't on the dance team/cheerleading squad/insert popular activity. That was valued. I wasn't a girl who constantly wore sexy clothing and/or had the "small waist, booty in your face" body. That was valued. I was not big on partying, didn't join a sorority and I didn't drink. That was not valued.


Not really. I addressed this early in this blog. You can't flip the script exactly because of the differences in what men desire as opposed to what women desire. You have a point about the "small waist, booty in your face" body, but all the other things you mention take a back seat to simply being naturally pretty and/or fine. I recall Sinbad in one of his stand-ups joking about how women will find it a joke for a guy working at McDonald's to try and talk to them, but if a woman looks good, she could be right there shaking fries and men will try to talk to her.

Another difference one must look at between male and females is that men can separate sex from emotional bonds. Often times, the fast, scantly dressed girls with the sexy bodies are often viewed as play things. They get a lot of attention from men, yet these same men don't necessarily see them as "wifey material".

On the other hand, women who hook up with players or the exiting "thuggish" brothas tend to actually expect to have long term relationships with them. This is why you are more likely to see good girls in committed relationships with bad guys than the reverse. It's also why men are much more likely to resist commitment today. Men tend to be more discerning about who they commit to than women.

Jason said...

Arthur said...

But I don't see any logical connection between the above behaviors and a dictatorial home style.


Research has shown that chivalry is positively related to paternalism and a basis for chivalry was the widely held belief that women are less competent and independent. Thus, the man must take on a role with his woman similar to the role a parent has with his or her children.

One would have to be naive not to think that those men who are the biggest advocates of chivalrous behavior are more inclined to embrace traditional male and female roles within the home and that such men tend more so to be conservative. Feminists tend to discourage chivalry.

Anonymous said...

Not really. I addressed this early in this blog. You can't flip the script exactly because of the differences in what men desire as opposed to what women desire. You have a point about the "small waist, booty in your face" body, but all the other things you mention take a back seat to simply being naturally pretty and/or fine. I recall Sinbad in one of his stand-ups joking about how women will find it a joke for a guy working at McDonald's to try and talk to them, but if a woman looks good, she could be right there shaking fries and men will try to talk to her.

Actually you can. I can't count on my hands and toes how many women I know that are doing everything as far as education, their job, their attitude, and their looks, but if they aren't out displaying it all for Black men to see they won't get as many looks as women who do, period. Then when these women DO in fact get looks and get asked out by Black men once they find out they won't be able to hit it after the first week or so they're running for the hills. Black men seem to not want women with values until they are 40 years old, with 4 different baby mamas, full of baggage, and unwanted by those same women they passed up for the easy booty.

Another difference one must look at between male and females is that men can separate sex from emotional bonds. Often times, the fast, scantly dressed girls with the sexy bodies are often viewed as play things. They get a lot of attention from men, yet these same men don't necessarily see them as "wifey material".

Again not true. What a man plans and what actually ends up happening is often worlds apart. A man can enter a sexual relationship with a woman with the plan that it will just be that and nothing more, but feelings are often caught and a lot of times relationships start from there. This happens ALL the time. Men don't separate sex and love as neatly as they pretend they do and women don't group them together as tightly as men would hope.

On the other hand, women who hook up with players or the exiting "thuggish" brothas tend to actually expect to have long term relationships with them. This is why you are more likely to see good girls in committed relationships with bad guys than the reverse. It's also why men are much more likely to resist commitment today. Men tend to be more discerning about who they commit to than women.

I've already addressed this but the same thing happens with women. The young men all go chasing what they think will be an easy notch on their belt and then when they're old and single and alone they want to run to the quiet, intellectual girl who they passed up on and they discover its too late. Either that or they've already entered into a serious relationship with the wild girl who they thought they only wanted to spend some nights with but ended up loving.

So basically, no, your woe is me the "good Black man" cliche talk about being passed over for so-called thugs doesn't work here because 10 times more Black women can give the same woe is me the good Black woman speech as those few Black men can.

Delishmish said...

Jason...
Have you thought about getting your own blog?

You really should think about it...then you can drone on and on to your hearts content. I honestly can't be bothered to read all your posts, but it seems like you desire to start conflict....I'm pretty sure this is not a blog aimed at black men, which I assume is what you are (don't know or care)..so I am not truly understanding why you are here so often...do you not realize that you cannot convince anyone in a blog like this that you are in fact correct about anything...

The fact is this..BW have many options which do not include someone like you. It is not an insult to you (and you say you have been married for years) Why not spend some of that time with the wifey..or as I stated before..your very own blog..here's a name for it..."Jasonsboringblogwherehegoesonandonandonandonandonandonand neverevershutshistrap.com...I practically guarantee lots of hits...or could it be,(pause) that you are in fact, in love with all the women here..the women who don't want ya, and never have.

hmmmmm

Oh wait..I forgot..it's us who are in love with you..lol

Kim said...

knockoutchick:

"You want to get away from the burdens that you are familiar with....and then even though you have new concerns with your new partner, that's OK. You just want to avoid what has been tormenting you in the past."
--------------
Thanks for the greeting, knockoutchick! I've never thought of an IR in that way, but I think it's understandable. People should feel free to explore their options especially when it comes to finding love. And staying in the same social circle can be a hindrance. So I can see where you and many of the commentators are coming from.

Aimee said...

Kim! said...

It's a little odd to attribute 'lightness' to wm while casting bm as the burden-carriers. There is a certain kind of subtle hypocrisy employed in these types of conversations because we can see the problems of others yet not how we've contributed with our own baggage.

Great insight, Kim. That was my entire purpose in taking a second look at Mr. Snipes' words--to generate discussion on how the burdens and woundedness that Mr. Snipes' refers to are not limited to either BM or BW. My argument is not that non-BM are "burden-free," but that Mr. Snipes DID make an important point that some black people resist facing: that the burdens that we carry as a people not only can bring us together, but can act as barriers between us.

Many black people interpreted that interview as nothing more than excuse-making by a BM who wanted to rationalize being with non-BW, and perhaps that was his sole motivation for making the statements he made. But I don't think that undermines the validity of his insight into this particular dynamic.

Just as there is truth in the claim that our unique experiences can serve as a foundation for a closeness and understanding that others cannot share, thre is also truth in the claim that the hurt, anger, and resentment that we carry can act to drive us apart.

I think that was the crux of Mr. Snipes' statement from the first article, and I think that is an equally important point: no matter who you choose to date, you can't allow the pain and frustration inflicted by the outside world to poison your relationships with those you love. While many black people passionately reject IRRs, they have not been as passionate about acting to heal the wounds between us (or even to acknowledge that those wounds are there). The irony, of course, is that many of the same people who were irate that Wesley Snipes married a Korean woman are perfectly content to see many BW live their lives out alone, because of the way in which woundedness has undermined the capacity of too many in our community to form stable, healthy, long-term relationships.

So my assertion is not that "BM=damaged, non-BM=undamaged." I only note that there are many forms of damage, and sharing the same damage can just as easily lead to shared dysfunction as to shared understanding. The important thing is to heal, and surround yourself with other healed/healthy people.

Jason said...

Anonymous said...
Actually you can. I can't count on my hands and toes how many women I know that are doing everything as far as education, their job, their attitude, and their looks, but if they aren't out displaying it all for Black men to see they won't get as many looks as women who do, period.


First point. The only thing you mention above that really has a positive affect on drawing men is the "attitude" part. Going through school and your job situation is not nearly as important as you try to make it to be. What importance it has today relates more to the lesser ability of today's men to support a woman and/or a family with one income, but it seems that you ladies want to equate the importance that you place on a man's educational and professional level with the importance that a man places this with with regard to women. The two are not comparable. Men, first and foremost, place emphasis on looks (and yes, I agree that that tends to be shallow) and then on attitude/character, and the attitudes of women today seem to me to be far worse than ever before.

Then when these women DO in fact get looks and get asked out by Black men once they find out they won't be able to hit it after the first week or so they're running for the hills.

Well, then they have done a good job in discerning what the man wanted from them. Unfortunately, women like this are becoming rarer and rarer. And while I know that your disdain for black men motivates your specific targeting of black men, don't you think that this likewise happens with other people?

Black men seem to not want women with values until they are 40years old, with 4 different baby mamas, full of baggage, and unwanted by those same women they passed up for the easy booty.

You've got this wrong. Black men/men in general today, often don't want to lose their freedom until the age of "40" (more like the age of 30). Generally, when men look for wives, they look for women with values, a good attitude, good character, etc. Until they decide that they want to settle down, they do chase easy booty, especially since easy booty is so readily available today. I can't recall attending a wedding where a man marries a loose woman. I have attended weddings where decent women marry knuckleheads.

And men rarely fall back on women they passed up, since those women are more likely to have baggage than the men and because women as much as 10 years younger are readily available to them.

What you have to understand is that men are far less needful of a relationship to feel complete than women are. Men want SEX (which is readily available outside of relationships), but don't feel the need that women do to have that significant other. Single women are viewed as being alone. Single men are viewed as being free. If a man fails to have a relationship with the woman he wanted to have a relationship with, he has far less pressure to fall back on someone he passed up in order to fill that relationship void. He just simply remains single and enjoys the single life until someone else comes along who is interesting.

Again not true. What a man plans and what actually ends up happening is often worlds apart. A man can enter a sexual relationship with a woman with the plan that it will just be that and nothing more, but feelings are often caught and a lot of times relationships start from there. This happens ALL the time. Men don't separate sex and love as neatly as they pretend they do and women don't group them together as tightly as men would hope.

And this is one of the reasons so many woman have problems. There seems to be a refusal to accept that the man lying on top of you is not as into you (as opposed to inside of you) as you might think.

And sure, you may have initially purely physical relationships that go beyond that, but I would say that the large number of single mothers out there is good indication that this is not the norm. Unfortunately, there is a tendency of many women to view sex as a stepping stone to a meaningful relationship with a particular man and this, in my opinion, is a mistake.

I've already addressed this but the same thing happens with women. The young men all go chasing what they think will be an easy notch on their belt and then when they're old and single and alone they want to run to the quiet, intellectual girl who they passed up on and they discover its too late.

I don't see this. Like I said, men who are single are "free" while women who are single are "alone". Men have far less presure to fill the relationship void and are less likely to try and fall back on what they passed up. There are simply more women available for relationships than men because women are more likely to be open to serious relationships than men.

Either that or they've already entered into a serious relationship with the wild girl who they thought they only wanted to spend some nights with but ended up loving.

Which, as evidence shows, is rare and the notion of this is a notion that too many woman share and one that tends to cause them problems.

So basically, no, your woe is me the "good Black man" cliche talk about being passed over for so-called thugs doesn't work here because 10 times more Black women can give the same woe is me the good Black woman speech as those few Black men can.

Not really being that such a speech tends to be based on a lack of understanding of what is happening. To summarize:

Men, black or otherwise, do not pass up women of good character to have committed relationships with hoochies. Men, who are not interested in having relationships give most of their attentions to hoochies because they perceive them as being easy for what they currently desire, and that is sex.

Men do place enormous emphasis on looks. Most men try to get an acceptable ballance between looks and character when looking for a relationship.

There are many educated and professional fools in the world, so education level and professional level doesn't equate to good character. Most men will tell you that women of good character are growing smaller every year.

So basically, a woman's woe story is not a case of good women being passed up by men trying to get serious with fast girls. It is a case of good women being passed by men who are not ready to get serious. Let women en masse stop having sex with men outside of marriage and watch how the proposals jump up and how the women of the best character become the center of attention.

And yes, women will always complain more than men. That's just nature.

Thanks for presenting your views in a civil, mature way. Enjoyed the exchange.

Anonymous said...

First point. The only thing you mention above that really has a positive affect on drawing men is the "attitude" part. Going through school and your job situation is not nearly as important as you try to make it to be. What importance it has today relates more to the lesser ability of today's men to support a woman and/or a family with one income, but it seems that you ladies want to equate the importance that you place on a man's educational and professional level with the importance that a man places this with with regard to women. The two are not comparable. Men, first and foremost, place emphasis on looks (and yes, I agree that that tends to be shallow) and then on attitude/character, and the attitudes of women today seem to me to be far worse than ever before.

Lets not lie here. I don't know any men who are looking to get seriously involved with a woman who does not work and will have to depend on him for money. Black men are forever complaining about golddiggers (most of which don't even have anything to worry about because they're not making much) so you know this is not true. Also, I wonder if men sometimes hear themselves speak when they talk? A lot openly admit they won't even consider a woman who they don't consider "fine" (superficial reasons) yet will often do a lot of whining and complaining about women wanting men with money and success (also superficial in reason).

Well, then they have done a good job in discerning what the man wanted from them. Unfortunately, women like this are becoming rarer and rarer. And while I know that your disdain for black men motivates your specific targeting of black men, don't you think that this likewise happens with other people?

I have no disdain for black men, but why should I expand my subject to all men when you've honed in on Black women in your previous post?

You've got this wrong. Black men/men in general today, often don't want to lose their freedom until the age of "40" (more like the age of 30). Generally, when men look for wives, they look for women with values, a good attitude, good character, etc. Until they decide that they want to settle down, they do chase easy booty, especially since easy booty is so readily available today. I can't recall attending a wedding where a man marries a loose woman. I have attended weddings where decent women marry knuckleheads.

Not true at all. This is either wishful thinking on your part or lack of understanding that times have indeed changed. Research shows that men of today are actually choosing romance over success and derive their emotional support completely from the opposite sex. You are oblivious if you think men only want and desire this after 40. If this was the case there wouldn't be so many young, bitter men complaining about the lack of "marriageable women". If you're not looking to get married until you're 40 or 50 none of this would concern you. I have no doubt that if you asked many young men today when they wanted to get married they'd say their 30s or some 40s such as you said. But again I will say what men do and say they want and what they actually do are completely different. As a male you probably see a lot more bravado and a lot less straight talk from other males (non-close friends) than I do as a woman. And I can assure you about 60% of the marriages I attend the woman had her "wild days". In many cases the men also had theirs too.

And men rarely fall back on women they passed up, since those women are more likely to have baggage than the men and because women as much as 10 years younger are readily available to them.

What you have to understand is that men are far less needful of a relationship to feel complete than women are. Men want SEX (which is readily available outside of relationships), but don't feel the need that women do to have that significant other. Single women are viewed as being alone. Single men are viewed as being free. If a man fails to have a relationship with the woman he wanted to have a relationship with, he has far less pressure to fall back on someone he passed up in order to fill that relationship void. He just simply remains single and enjoys the single life until someone else comes along who is interesting.


I think you are deluding yourself quite a bit, possibly to make yourself feel better about your prospects as a man. I can assure you that if you are a 40 to 50 year old man in the club, unless you are making a ton of money and willing to spend it gleefully on young women who you know don't want you for more than that, you are not going to have any young women beating down your door lol. Internet single sites are full of males young and old, often at a ratio of 10 to 1 for a reason. Even if you talk to any realistic man they will tell you women have a much easier time finding men interested in them than the other way around.

And this is one of the reasons so many woman have problems. There seems to be a refusal to accept that the man lying on top of you is not as into you (as opposed to inside of you) as you might think.

And sure, you may have initially purely physical relationships that go beyond that, but I would say that the large number of single mothers out there is good indication that this is not the norm. Unfortunately, there is a tendency of many women to view sex as a stepping stone to a meaningful relationship with a particular man and this, in my opinion, is a mistake.


This definitely lets me know you are living in the past. Go to any college campus, ask any college girl if she is looking for a serious relationship, particularly in those first 3 years, and you won't get a lot of resounding "yes"s. Many women are looking to sleep around and not have anything serious just as men are, particularly because the careers they pursue are time consuming and don't allow investment in a deep, meaningful relationship. And of course because hormones are raging, no need for further explanation. Also you are contradicting yourself quite a bit as well and I don't think you realize this. On one hand you say women with the attitudes like women in the old days are becoming rarer and rarer because of their looseness and the men they choose to sleep with, yet on the other hand you are desperately hoping to believe these same women still hold all the archaic values on sex as they did before. This is all quite telling that most of what you are saying is wishful thinking and nothing more. But I don't expect you to understand this seeing as how it seems you are probably up there in age and aren't connected with the youth mindframe.

I don't see this. Like I said, men who are single are "free" while women who are single are "alone". Men have far less presure to fill the relationship void and are less likely to try and fall back on what they passed up. There are simply more women available for relationships than men because women are more likely to be open to serious relationships than men.

Again you are wishing. This pressure isn't nearly as great anymore as it once was. Paris Hilton, Lindsey Lohan, Nicole Richie, Rihanna, etc. and all these girls are being immortalized in their serial singlehood, not to mention the glorification of them hopping from man to man and their generally crazy and extravagant lifestyle. Sex and the City is another thing that made this type of behavior (that was really already going on) more acceptable and apparent to society for women. Matter of fact, it even made it pretty fashionable and "cool". Now I'm not saying any of this behavior is right, but its a reality that you'll have to face. Singlehood is not some kind death sentence to women the way you are hoping, I'm sorry.

Men, black or otherwise, do not pass up women of good character to have committed relationships with hoochies. Men, who are not interested in having relationships give most of their attentions to hoochies because they perceive them as being easy for what they currently desire, and that is sex.

And I will again state the obvious notion that all women know and see for themselves that this is not true. You can keep living in your fantasy world and not accepting a woman's view on things because it doesn't sit well with you, but its true. Yes physical relationships often turn into actual relationships because the men who are involved in it want it to be that way.

Men do place enormous emphasis on looks. Most men try to get an acceptable ballance between looks and character when looking for a relationship.

Exactly! And what you fail to take into account is men often see a good looking woman and often assume she is good period. A woman's beauty has been shown countless times in research to cloud a man's judgment. This is how they get used by these women they consider beautiful, and end up bitter at women. You are attempting to paint men as if they don't make mistakes in relationships when they do, OFTEN! Especially since because they are men they are rarely groomed on the way relationships should be.

There are many educated and professional fools in the world, so education level and professional level doesn't equate to good character. Most men will tell you that women of good character are growing smaller every year.

Most women will tell you the same about men. This isn't a special complaint that can only be assigned to men.

So basically, a woman's woe story is not a case of good women being passed up by men trying to get serious with fast girls. It is a case of good women being passed by men who are not ready to get serious. Let women en masse stop having sex with men outside of marriage and watch how the proposals jump up and how the women of the best character become the center of attention.

And let men en masse stop being willing to sleep with anything moving and you'll get a larger pool of good character women. Same stuff Jason. One sex's behavior effects the other, its common knowledge. Point blank, more and more women aren't willing to subvert their natural urges when the people they are supposed to settle with make no intentions to either. I think I can comfortably say though, in the near future whores will be marrying whores and everybody will be okay with it lol.

And yes, women will always complain more than men. That's just nature.

Jason not to be mean but you seem to be dead set on making sure nobody here takes your opinion seriously. Basing your entire posts on stereotypes of women on a woman's board is kind of poorly thought out.

Thanks for presenting your views in a civil, mature way. Enjoyed the exchange.

No problem. I must say though. Its quite funny that your post is not only speaking from a men's point of view but you are also dead set on telling women everything they think, want, and desire as well. Like I said, you appear to be deluded quite a bit on a lot of these contemporary issues because what you want to be true is overshadowing what actually is.

daphne said...

Nope, since what I considered attractive was generally different from what the majority considered attractive. So what I found attractive has no bearing on the general consensus of what is attractive.

OK, that's fine, but my question had nothing to do with what the majority considered attractive. My point is that the generalizations you made based on your college experiences were based on the women to whom you were attracted. There's no conceivable way you can ascertain what the majority of the black girls on your campus valued, unless you dated and/or knew the majority. You readily admitted that men place a high value (primary, perhaps?) on looks, so presumably because you're a man, you're included in that group? So is it possible that the women to whom you were attracted had the values (or lack thereof) you described, which has more to do with you than the women? (And to be fair, I've no problem admitting that the same could be said of women who make similar complaints.) But I'm hard-pressed to believe that the majority of them didn't value what you described - especially given your assertion that I, as a black woman, cannot make similar generalizations. It makes no sense how one is applicable, but the other is not - particularly because it's all based on individual experiences (and not valid research, which you frequently request when some posters express themselves, but is curiously absent in the statements about which I inquired).

Anonymous said...

OK, that's fine, but my question had nothing to do with what the majority considered attractive. My point is that the generalizations you made based on your college experiences were based on the women to whom you were attracted. There's no conceivable way you can ascertain what the majority of the black girls on your campus valued, unless you dated and/or knew the majority. You readily admitted that men place a high value (primary, perhaps?) on looks, so presumably because you're a man, you're included in that group? So is it possible that the women to whom you were attracted had the values (or lack thereof) you described, which has more to do with you than the women? (And to be fair, I've no problem admitting that the same could be said of women who make similar complaints.) But I'm hard-pressed to believe that the majority of them didn't value what you described - especially given your assertion that I, as a black woman, cannot make similar generalizations. It makes no sense how one is applicable, but the other is not - particularly because it's all based on individual experiences (and not valid research, which you frequently request when some posters express themselves, but is curiously absent in the statements about which I inquired).

Good observation. What gets me though is not that he is generalizing, but that he is attempting to generalize both sides with equal candor, as if he has life experiences being both a man and a woman. I can understand his somewhat omniscient tone when speaking on the way males behave and what they think, want, feel (even though I don't believe half of it because I've seen the exact opposite in my experiences), but the fact that he has the same omniscient tone when speaking on the way females behave and what we think, want, feel is incredible lol. I think he really feels as if he's entitled to tell everybody what this group is like and what that group is like and generalize all he wants but its not okay for anyone else, especially when the generalization is against his particular group and its seemingly negative.

Aimee said...

Anonymous said...

Research shows that men of today are actually choosing romance over success and derive their emotional support completely from the opposite sex. You are oblivious if you think men only want and desire this after 40. If this was the case there wouldn't be so many young, bitter men complaining about the lack of "marriageable women". If you're not looking to get married until you're 40 or 50 none of this would concern you. I have no doubt that if you asked many young men today when they wanted to get married they'd say their 30s or some 40s such as you said. But again I will say what men do and say they want and what they actually do are completely different. As a male you probably see a lot more bravado and a lot less straight talk from other males (non-close friends) than I do as a woman.

I see this all the time--men insisting that they have no interest in marriage while simultaneously whining about the lack of marriageable women. The objective reality is that men benefit from marriage on virtually every dimension--financially, emotionally, physically, mentally--MORE than women.

And let's face it--despite the fantasizing, most men are NOT George Clooney. The average guy with average looks, income, wealth and charm does not have an unending array of attractive women fighting for their affections well into their dotage. Unless a man is especially rich, handsome or charismatic, being single means being alone--period.

This is actually more true for men than it is for women, since single women are much more likely to maintain emotionally close and nurturing ties to family, friends, and children than are single men--which is the main reason that men benefit so dispropotionately from marriage: women tend to have a wider variety of sources from which to fulfill their emotional needs than men do.

The difference is that it is socially acceptable for women to acknowledge that they want committed romantic relationships, while men are expected to maintain their allegience to the "swinging bachelor" image. To acknowledge that they want love and relationships would be considered supremely unmasculine--but human beings NEED other human beings. We just do. It's sad that so many men end up undermining their own well-being by refusing to acknowledge this simple fact about the human condition.

Selena said...

Aimee said:

And let's face it--despite the fantasizing, most men are NOT George Clooney. The average guy with average looks, income, wealth and charm does not have an unending array of attractive women fighting for their affections well into their dotage. Unless a man is especially rich, handsome or charismatic, being single means being alone--period.

This is actually more true for men than it is for women, since single women are much more likely to maintain emotionally close and nurturing ties to family, friends, and children than are single men--which is the main reason that men benefit so dispropotionately from marriage: women tend to have a wider variety of sources from which to fulfill their emotional needs than men do.

The difference is that it is socially acceptable for women to acknowledge that they want committed romantic relationships, while men are expected to maintain their allegience to the "swinging bachelor" image. To acknowledge that they want love and relationships would be considered supremely unmasculine--but human beings NEED other human beings. We just do. It's sad that so many men end up undermining their own well-being by refusing to acknowledge this simple fact about the human condition.

One of the main reasons why there's a higher percentage of suicides among men compared to women.

BTW bw have the lowest percentage compared to all other groups, ie wm, bm, ww...

Sandra77 said...

Ladies and gentlemen, please stop feeding the troll - he's getting fat on your responses! Ignore him, other than to appreciate his value as a cautionary tale, and as an example of one of the many reasons that black women need to broaden our dating horizons. Don't even allow this hi-jacker to board your plane.

Evia said...

Ladies and gentlemen, please stop feeding the troll - he's getting fat on your responses! Ignore him, other than to appreciate his value as a cautionary tale, and as an example of one of the many reasons that black women need to broaden our dating horizons. Don't even allow this hi-jacker to board your plane.

Yep, Sandra. I agree totally.

And ladies, if you check the archives, you'll see that the SAME arguments, same points, including virtually the SAME articles, SAME stats are cited to refute what bw are saying in these blogs WHENEVER we bw dare to say we're 'escaping' or have already escaped and are NOT looking back.

What I find especially ludicrous and very telling is that on many of the bw-IR blogs or related ones, some bm are having tantrums years later because they claim they're good guys but the "fine" women or the "dymes" didn't give them any love when they were in college or won't give them any love now. LOL! It's like they feel ENTITLED to those dymes. They'll step over all the rest of the ordinary looking bw or the ones they call unattractive to get to a dyme, yet apparently want people to pity them because the dymes ignored them. LOL! How selfish is that?!! Did any of these pity-seekers have any mercy on the non-dyme bw and pay them attention, chase after them, ask them out,send them a rose, etc.?

Well, hell and tarnation! Tons of black women are nice too, and very "good girls." We do what we're supposed to do too and LOTS of these bw don't get love either. But I know I don't hear bw constantly ranting or sinking into bitterness about how the best looking men on campus didn't like them, or how they saw a hunk in their job cafeteria who didn't pay them attention or was with a trashy-looking woman. I don't know about other black women, but there were certainly tons of good looking guys on campus who weren't interested in me AT ALL when I was in college. I STILL see good looking men everyday who don't even look at me, but it has never occurred to me to take this personally or even give it a second thought, let alone remember this for the rest of my life or to get happy if they end up with the wrong woman. LOL!

How pathological is that!! These are some SCARY men.

kay said...

On a side note: Everyone please go to amazon and support CW. She wrote a book called Black Women Deserve Better. Well on the amazon review section theres this paticular blogger who wrote this nasty negative review of the book. This particular blogger is a black woman who hates IR blogs and their messages of upliftment. Since she had too much time on her hands she decided to write a bad review. We need to counteract her review by posting positive ones. Please support CW at

http://www.amazon.com/gp/cdp/member-reviews/A1E8KWVOG1PA9U/ref=cr_cm_rdp_pdp_see_all?ie=UTF8&sort%5Fby=MostRecentReview

Sandra77 said...

Kay Said: thanks for the heads up on CW's book. I bought her book about 6 weeks ago and loved it. I have posted a review on Amazon (which I should have done long ago).

Sandra77 said...

Evia, how timely is your newest post on your IR blog showing Michelle Obama and her family living well! I just read where Fox News called Michelle Barack's "baby mama" - all this after being married and having her children in wedlock! I guess this is what she and Barack get for being "uppity". This epithet is supposed to remind Michelle that, in spite of her Princeton undergraduate and Harvard Law School education, and in spite of making good life choices, she's still just a lowly black woman who can be insulted by all and sundry without recourse. Well, I got news for Fox News - they ain't seen nothin' yet when it comes to black women living well - we are about to explode!

Jason said...

Aimee and anonymous

One of your points of how men value romance, marriage, emotional support, etc. is true. That doesn't contradict anything I say and I will actually cite studies to show this. The part below that is in bold supports what I say and the actual study (which comes from a survey) disputes your claim that men go around saying that they don't desire marriage. You can go to the link for more details:

http://www.prepinc.com/main/docs/commitment.pdf

First, various findings suggest that men, compared to women, see
marriage as more desirable or important.

*snip*

This is a curious thing. The popular conception is that men are commitment phobic, especially about marriage, and women are the ones eager to move relationships toward that committed state. But these data suggest that men, maybe more than women, would be the ones pursuing marriage because they
may actually see it as a more desirable or important step. What could explain this disconnect
between the popular perceptions of men and the sentiments that men express? As I mentioned above, I think an understanding of how men vs. women see crossing the line between marriage and not marriage may explain a great deal.

Why Men Won’t Commit

*snip*

First and foremost, men report that they can enjoy many of the same benefits by cohabiting rather then marrying. Further, they report few social pressures to marry; not from family, not from friends, and not from the families of the women they live with. They also associate marriage, not cohabitation, with the possibility of financial loss. Another fear expressed is that, in marriage, a woman will want to have children sooner. Across a spectrum of possible changes, they are essentially saying they are not ready and that they would like to put such changes off as long as they possibly can—for example, until their late 20s. Essentially, they report that they are not ready for all the responsibility implied by marriage. To them, cohabitation without marriage provides all the desirable benefits of companionship without the potential risks of marriage.

*snip*

There were two elements of their report that I found particularly intriguing; one disturbing and one semi-humorous. First, Whitehead and Popenoe suggest that many young
adults today are seeking soul mates. Ninety-four percent (94%) of younger adults actually
express this as the most important feature of what or who they are looking for in a mate
(Popenoe & Whitehead 2001). Part of what they implied in that sentiment is that a soul mate is
someone who will take them as they are and not try to change them. Disturbingly, some significant number of men essentially reported that part of why they were resisting commitment in marriage was that they were not sure their female cohabitant was their soul mate. Until they find a soul mate, however, they are willing to wait. They don’t want to "settle"
for second best in their choice of a marriage partner, though they don’t have the same standards for a choice of a live-in girlfriend.

Jason said...

To Evia

You all really no how to take someone's statement and make more out of it than is what's there. Nobody's throwing a tantrum (at least not me). I made an observation, that being that the men of higher social status had a wider selection of females interested in them. On the college campus, that was typically the popular guys who were in the middle of the social circle (fraternity members, athletes, etc.). As these folks mature, professional status is included in social status along with popularity, etc.

http://www.mens-homepage.com/what-women-admire-about-men.html?authorname=Cucan%20Pemo

A survey of college students in Massachusetts, Michigan, Texas and California found that women value social status considerably more than men - they dubbed it important and indispensable, while men merely thought it desirable, but not all that important.

Again, someone maid claims as to how important a woman's professional/social status was to a man. To men, professional/social status in women is like the icing on the cake whereas to women, men's social/professional status is the cake itself. But the ladies here can't stop making conclusions about what men want using a woman's perspective. Professional status is nice and desirable, but not nearly as important to men as it is to women. As anonymous correctly stated, men value love and romance. That is why men put greater effort into finding a soul mate. Women tend to marry out of opportunity and less out of finding a soul mate than men.

Jason said...

I think he really feels as if he's entitled to tell everybody what this group is like and what that group is like and generalize all he wants but its not okay for anyone else, especially when the generalization is against his particular group and its seemingly negative.

I'm telling my observations. It's funny that you say this, then say you don't belive half of what I say about men because of your observations. That's hypocritical. And where did I say that no one else was entitled to give their opinions of how men act? You are making things up now. Also

The difference is that it is socially acceptable for women to acknowledge that they want committed romantic relationships, while men are expected to maintain their allegience to the "swinging bachelor" image. To acknowledge that they want love and relationships would be considered supremely unmasculine--but human beings NEED other human beings. We just do. It's sad that so many men end up undermining their own well-being by refusing to acknowledge this simple fact about the human condition.

Now when are you going to accuse her of being omniscient about men? Even you have all of he answers about men, so you are being a bit hypocritical here. I may dispute her findings (which is what the link does), yet I'm not going to imply that she shouldn't express them because she is not a man.

Jason said...

Sorry about the misspellings above. I was typing fast.

OK, that's fine, but my question had nothing to do with what the majority considered attractive.

But my answer did.

My point is that the generalizations you made based on your college experiences were based on the women to whom you were attracted.

And my response to your point was that this is a false statement

There's no conceivable way you can ascertain what the majority of the black girls on your campus valued, unless you dated and/or knew the majority.

Through five years of observations on top of previous years of observations as well as subsequent years of doing the same, I can reasonably conclude what is valued. You can include various research also.

You readily admitted that men place a high value (primary, perhaps?) on looks, so presumably because you're a man, you're included in that group? So is it possible that the women to whom you were attracted had the values (or lack thereof) you described, which has more to do with you than the women?

No. This was answered in no uncertain terms in the previous reply.

But I'm hard-pressed to believe that the majority of them didn't value what you described - especially given your assertion that I, as a black woman, cannot make similar generalizations.

I never asserted anything of the sort about what you can or cannot do. I simply stated something that I have observed to a degree that practically makes it a fact in my mind, and that is that men who are at the top of the social ladder have a wider pool of women to choose from. Do you deny this?

It makes no sense how one is applicable, but the other is not - particularly because it's all based on individual experiences (and not valid research, which you frequently request when some posters express themselves, but is curiously absent in the statements about which I inquired).

There is enough research out there showing that women tend to be attracted to social status. One would have to be delusional to think otherwise. I'm sure that there are plenty of individuals who don't fit this, but that is not the rule. And I have said clearly that men are drawn to looks. What I have been saying is that women are more open to marrying those men who they are initially attracted to. Men are quick to date, show off, sleep with, etc. those women they are initially attracted to, but generally require more than that to desire marriage. I posted above how men seem to delay marriage while looking for that "soul mate". True enough, a lot of quality women who are not physically attractive to a lot of men may never get the chance with certain men because those men are not initially physically attracted to them, but that's beside the point. There is somebody for everybody. If a woman is big and fat, I'm sure there is a big fat man out there who would love her (and most of very heavy women I know have very heavy men).

My main poit was that men can separate sex from emotion better than women. Generally, when we catch that amazing physical beauty, we are not automatically desiring to marry her. On the other hand, often when a woman catches that extremely popular guy who is the center of attention and in the mix, they tend to be much more open to marrying him regardless of his character.

As I said, marriage seems to be something that women see as an opportunity whereas men see marriage as something that is more than just a notion.

Evia said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Evia said...

Evia, how timely is your newest post on your IR blog showing Michelle Obama and her family living well! I just read where Fox News called Michelle Barack's "baby mama" - all this after being married and having her children in wedlock!

Gurl! I think that bw MUST make a concerted effort to flood the blogosphere and media with OUR vision--a positive vision--of who we (bw) are and where we are headed (towards Living Well) versus allowing folks to muck with our brains and hi-jack our attention, as you so aptly put it.

Yeah, that comment about Michelle was meant to 'put her in her place.' A LOT of devious moves and deliberately contrived comments/accusations are often thrown at AA women, 'testing' to get them (bw) all upset and keep them stuck in mess and on the defense because it's very hard for a person to react and proact at the same time. Notice that I say 'them,' not me--because I KNOW what their game is, and I don't choose to spend my time defending against stupid attacks. When we spend so much time defending ourselves and reacting, we're not able to PROACT and CREATE the vision of the life we want and head directly for it.

I wish more bw could see that these folks are merely toying with bw, throwing out trial balloons, distractions, to see how we react and to keep some of us dizzy, confused and useable. These trolls and folks who constantly cause these blog and media wars with black women do this deliberately to keep us off balance and as uncompetitive as possible. Fox said what they did about Michelle in order to get Barack and/or Michelle to hopefully go ballistic, say something stupid and fall in a hole that would take them 6 months to get out of. LOL! FOX was simply trying to exploit human nature, knowing the tendency of people to try to defend themselves when insulted or attacked.

Sometimes folks mess with bw because they want to see some of us do that stereotyped "bw thang." And I've seen some sistas go into that predictable bw behavior pattern, never realizing they're being played.

Don't get me wrong. I think defense and reaction are VERY important, but only a small portion of bw should be doing that. The rest should be creating and figuring out ways to implement the new VISION of 'Living Well' or whatever anyone wants to call it. NEVER allow anyone to take the bulk of your attention off that.

Re: defense, this is why AA women need an ultra effective anti-defamation organizaton with some cutthroat lawyers and other strategists at the helm and if some of those lawyers are some brutal wm lawyers/strategists--I welcome them. We've got to let people know that when they try to malign us, we're willing to pulverize them and it doesn't matter whether it's black folks or anyone else doing it. Trust. When people LEARN they're going to pay a high price for messing with you, they WILL leave you alone and pick on somebody else. LOL!

For ex, a case in point was that comment made about bw's hair at Glamour magazine, the type of organization I envision would have wiped them out financially or made a serious dent. It doesn't take much to wipe out a company these days because the profit margin of many companies is not that great. Also, there should have been found a way to file as many civil lawsuits as possible against Imus, D.L. Hughley, Damon Wayans, BET and other maligners of the image of AA women.

And we've got to be willing to FINANCE this organization or pay this group of lawyers--even if a sista needs to get a part-time job to pay her organizational dues. LOL! When such an anti-defamation organization or effort is set up (and it will happen one of these days), IF bw, in mass don't support it, I'm going to be D-O-N-E with my sistas because, as a group, we're going to be finished anyway if we don't become ferocious and fight back with everything we've got. In the small global village of the world today, your image or the perception of you is virtually everything and there are people who are dead set on destroying our image.

As I said, in the meantime, the bulk of us should be focused on proacting and creating NEW visions, pathways, or new perspectives for bw as Aimee brilliantly did with this post and as we do with our blogs. I've already created a part of a new vision for a lot of bw and I know this is why some folks have tried to slice and dice me. LOL! That only tells me how effective I've been. See, the more venom they spit at me, the more effective I know I've been. If I weren't effective, no one would even bother to attack me.

The bottom line is that if ANY person--black, white, man, woman, or child--doesn't like us or appreciate us, AA women need to just step over him/her and keep moving towards Living Well, with WHOEVER does appreciate us, and can help us to reach our goal. EVERYBODY else already does this, but they just don't "say" it. They're not moving ahead or making progress by accident; it's a PLAN that's being orchestrated and some of them are working that plan at the expense of bw.

An ex. of this is the relatively high rate at which many bm are dating, marrying, cohabiting with non-black women. Actually, I would hope that bw reading this wouldn't care about this by now, and I'm only mentioning this to show you a clear illustration of an orchestrated plan being implemented SEEMINGLY without anyone advocating it. The fact is that for hundreds of years, bm have sought out lighter, whiter mates. This is nothing new. Read history books and black literature for evidence of this. That's always been their preference or the desire of a LOT of bm--their PLAN, but many bw did NOT know about this or have fogotten it. The blatant implementation of this plan has now caught many bw by surprise, and you haven't seen anything yet. Because of integration and greater acceptance of bw-ww relationships, in 2008, there's very little that prevents bm from implementing their plan. It's always been there. Many folks get mad at me for setting up a black female IR blog, but bm don't need a "black MALE interracial marriage" website. LOL! The plan is already implanted in the brain cells of many bm in the West, and has been for hundreds of years. They're merely implementing it now.

The fact is that AA women need to STOP all of this back-stepping, side-steppng, half-stepping, etc. It's already later than many of us think.

Jason said...

Hi Evia. Interesting site and recent blog. Can I ask you a question?

If a successful professional man who is well respected and of a high financial status marries a woman who is not very good looking, is he marrying down?

If a high powered female attorney married Muhammad Ali, would she be marrying down?

Jason said...

Actually, that's two questions.

Delishmish said...

Evia..

I think that is a brilliant plan (to have a conglomerate of high powered angry lawyers on hand to continuously file lawsuits on behalf of US)...a kind of Gloria Allred multiplied to the power of 10..and black.

Now when I say US, I am really speaking of us as black WOMEN only, and I (impliedly) also mean us bw who REALIZE the madness has to stop...unfortunately too many of our sisters have blinders on, and do not see that they themselves contribute to the problem at hand.

I would give to, and be a part of such an organization.

EmergingPhoenix said...

@ Evia - I think it is a great idea as well, and I would definitely donate to such an organization. Hell, I would want to assist in ANY way for such an organization.

HBC said...

Evia,

It would be a great idea for us, as bw to form such an organization because it is much needed and the time is definitely now.

Halima said...

By God Evia, i think you are unto something here!

I have always wondered how bw could do all the work of anti-defamation, given that we are all busy with our own lives etc. a lot of work is being done on other blogs but there is need for it to be done at a more strategic level with a higher profile (and 247) so that it can be effectively discourage misusers and defamers.

yet the answer was staring me right in the face all along; a group of lawyers whose full time job it is to do the work strategically and in a way that brings the overarching benefits we need!


Aimee can you look into the issue of setting up such an organisation? I know you mentioned something similar in the past but the 'penny didnt drop' as they say.

we have to pay you your rates of course lol!

knockoutchick said...

Great Idea!

No one will advocate for us, as we can see.

Not only is Michael Vick spending his every waking hour in jail. When he gets out, if he plays pro ball again, the PETA people will show up at every game, at his house, everywhere he goes. They will do their best to make his life miserable.

We'll all be 70 years old and Mr. Vick will be sititng for a book signing and a grey haired white woman will show up in TEARS, exhausted by the insomnia caused by his treatments of those poor, poor dogs.

Yet, I am sure as we read, Mr. Kelly is back at home watching the remaining child porno the cops didn't seize during the previous raids and swilling Moet.

From now til forever...any major ball player, rapper or entertainer wouldn't even dream of hurting an animal, as they know their careers would be in the toilet.

We need representation.

I send a few dollars out to folks I see suporting us when I have them. Like the Obama fund raising model....a few dollars from a few thousand folks and soon you've got millions

faith said...

I found about about this blog through Black Women Vote to Evia's to yours and it's been an exciting read. I learned a long time ago to just skip over the trolls, but their presence means we are on the right path AND people are watching us. The walls are crumbling and we need one good blow to knock them down!!!

I found the PETA analogy very telling. Their campaign was very effective - though there was an element of racism involved which leaves a bitter taste in my mouth. I think back to the Chris Rock special when he mentioned how Black people are not allowed to profit from anybody's pain without retribution. Well they can if it involves Black women!

There needs to be swift repercussions for all who cross the line with Black women including other Black people who choose to enable attacks. And as far as BM/BW relationships go - BM do NOT belong to us. We are free and should actively seek companionship with whomever is BEST for us. We should place limits on our vision lest our lives be stunted.

I am in the process of creating a vision board for myself because I have noticed how I've confused 'reality' of life with being negative all the time and thinking about all of the difficulties I've had to face and assuming there would always be a problem to fight. Well, I'm exhausted. I can't control everything but I can practice cognitive focus on positive possibilities. I think there is a shift resonating with many of us within this past year and we will find each other and support our combined efforts to make the world safer and better with more quality for each other!!

P.S. As for R Kelly - we can go after his advertising partners, his record label and many other actions to show our displeasure! This is only the beginning.

Anonymous said...

I like the idea of having attorneys to monitor and fight against the constant defamation of Black women in the media, but I'm a little against the PETA approach. What we need is a subtle, effective organization that can get it done from the inside, similar to the way Jews have in it Hollywood. Most people don't even realize but if you are in show business and make inflammatory remarks about Jews, even as a joke, or are even suspected of antisemitism in any way you will pretty much be shut out or severely and quickly dealt with. The best thing about it is that it works extremely well but its not public. Its been so effective most people entering the business know not to even mess with them. I personally don't like the idea of having Black women throwing paint on celebs walking down the red carpet and protesting in the streets vehemently so-to-speak like PETA. I don't think we need to add to the angry Black woman stereotype anymore than Black men have built it up. If there is going to be an organization it needs to be strictly behind the scenes/boardroom thing. Those lawyers should handle it quietly while Black women at large aren't even specifically aware of the protection.

Halima said...

What we need is a subtle, effective organization that can get it done from the inside, similar to the way Jews have in it Hollywood. Most people don't even realize but if you are in show business and make inflammatory remarks about Jews, even as a joke, or are even suspected of antisemitism in any way you will pretty much be shut out or severely and quickly dealt with. The best thing about it is that it works extremely well but its not public. Its been so effective most people entering the business know not to even mess with them.

Yep Yep

If there is going to be an organization it needs to be strictly behind the scenes/boardroom thing. Those lawyers should handle it quietly while Black women at large aren't even specifically aware of the protection.

Yep

JaliliMaster said...

knockoutchick said...

@ Jalilimaster
The tone of many of your posts are so aggressive they border on threatening.

-------------------

As I said to you on the previous post, I will not entertain your need to constantly attack me. It seems, knockoutchick, that wherever I post, you must find a way to somehow malign me. If you dislike me THAT much, whenever you see my username, just keep it movin'! I will not reply you as I know it will only serve to further derail this discussion, but as I told you weeks ago, I tell you again.....LEAVE...ME....ALOOOONE!
---------------------

Jason, it seems that your plan continues to work. You have made it your mission to go on bw-ir sites and divert discussion away from what is being discussed. You are a married man. You have no place on this board, not with an attitude like yours. Seriously, what exactly do you stand to gain from what you are doing excpet the temporary feeling of satisfaction from believeing that by diverting our discussion towards black men(as you always do), you somehow believe you are stopping black women from exploring ALL their options. I don't know why the sisters on this site cannot see through you and continue to entertain your ramblings. Jason, your intentions are so transparent, to me atleast.

And did it ever occur to you that al those attractive women who paid you no attention in college because the didn't find you attractive did so because, I don't know, maybe you weren't attractive. This whole lie that women are not attracted to looks is just that, a lie. As women get older, other things start to matter, but even you know that in college, what really determines who is the 'popular guy', is, as you admitted, social status, which, at that age, is driven primarily by looks. Afterall, have you ever seen an ugly jock who was chased after by girls.

Stop moaning. If girls didn't like you, you were either socially awkward or ugly, or both. You have no right to expect the 'dymes' to pay you attention then complain when they don't. As you stated, you were not the 'dyme-equivalent' of males(the jock, hot/popular guy). The hottest guys almost always end up with the hottest girls and vice versa. You're only pissed 'cause the hot chicks didn't want you.

Here's a clue. Get Denzel, Boris Kodjoe, Shemar Moore, Morris Chestnut, Gary Dourdan etc in a room. Get Halle, Nia Long, Gabriell Union, Naomi Campbell and Kerry Washington in the same room Then throw in a Gary oldman, a Flava Flav. Which of these men do you think would come out single(let's assume none of them are married). Get my drift. So did it ever occur to you that the same way you'd probably desired a Halle or Naomi to, say a lil' kim or some other busted chick, is the same way those girls you lusted after in college would rather be with a Denzel or Gary Dourdan than be with you?!

It amazes me when unattractive males think they 'deserve' a drop dead gorgeous female as some male birthright, yet call women 'shallow' when they do the same. Only ugly rich men wishfully believe that women are only interested in a man's financial/professional status. The ugly broke one's dream that some hot princess would rescue them from loserville. Know your limits Jason. Don't be going after Gabby Union's when you are looking like Gary Oldman.

JaliliMaster said...

Faith, I competely agree with what you said. And I'm really liking the paragraph about positive thinking.

Anonymous, agree 100%

EmergingPhoenix said...

@ Anon - I think your suggestions are great. Can I just say to everyone, that the brainstoriming for such an idea, should probably be done on a private board. Afterall, when people know your plans, a counter plan is easy to construct. Knowledge is power.

Taylor-Sara said...

Aimee, count me in, I would love to help this coalition in any way I can. We have got to stand up and fight back against predators of black women regardless of their color...

Jason said...

JaliliMaster said...
Jason, it seems that your plan continues to work.

If I have a plan, you are the only reason that it continues to work LOL.

You have made it your mission to go on bw-ir sites and divert discussion away from what is being discussed.

No I haven't.

You are a married man. You have no place on this board, not with an attitude like yours.

Why?

Seriously, what exactly do you stand to gain from what you are doing excpet the temporary feeling of satisfaction from believeing that by diverting our discussion towards black men(as you always do), you somehow believe you are stopping black women from exploring ALL their options.

Where have I attempted to stop black women from exploring all of their options? I hardly recall even discussing interracial relationships.

I don't know why the sisters on this site cannot see through you and continue to entertain your ramblings.

Uhm, since you have been the only person to respond to me in 6 days and have repeatedly responded to me before that, it seems that you are the main fool who entertains me, right?

Jason, your intentions are so transparent, to me atleast.

You can go on believing this.

And did it ever occur to you that al those attractive women who paid you no attention in college because the didn't find you attractive did so because, I don't know, maybe you weren't attractive.

Where was there a discussion about a bunch of attractive women not being attracted to me? And don't try to make me out to be unattractive just because you are busted.

This whole lie that women are not attracted to looks is just that, a lie.

Who said that women are not attracted to looks? I said that men place far more emphasis on looks than women. Do you deny this?

As women get older, other things start to matter, but even you know that in college, what really determines who is the 'popular guy', is, as you admitted, social status, which, at that age, is driven primarily by looks.

Don't agree with this.

Afterall, have you ever seen an ugly jock who was chased after by girls.

YES!

Stop moaning. If girls didn't like you, you were either socially awkward or ugly, or both.

But girls did like me. My wife loves me. And she's beautiful. Does your husband love you? Oops, you don't have one. Sorry.

You have no right to expect the 'dymes' to pay you attention then complain when they don't.

Who said that dymes didn't pay attention to me and when did I complain? I made a general observation that men with the highest social status had access to a larger variety of women, as opposed to, lets say, the more intellectual guys. And what makes a "dyme" is a matter of opinion.

As you stated, you were not the 'dyme-equivalent' of males(the jock, hot/popular guy).

Where did I state this? What have you been reading? I stated specifically that I was "the jock". I received a free education because of it. Just because you are not attractive doesn't mean that others on this board are not. If there was anything going for me, it was looks. Apparently, you are mad because brothas don't want you because you are fat and unattractive, so your attempt at payback is to try to convince black women to leave brothas alone. The problem is that the good looking sistas have nothing to worry about and don't feel your anger.

The hottest guys almost always end up with the hottest girls and vice versa. You're only pissed 'cause the hot chicks didn't want you.

Where did you read that "the hot chicks" didn't want me? I had enough chicks who I viewed as hot to keep me from resorting to going after those who look like you.

Here's a clue. Get Denzel, Boris Kodjoe, Shemar Moore, Morris Chestnut, Gary Dourdan etc in a room. Get Halle, Nia Long, Gabriell Union, Naomi Campbell and Kerry Washington in the same room Then throw in a Gary oldman, a Flava Flav. Which of these men do you think would come out single(let's assume none of them are married). Get my drift.

Uhm, all of these guys are on a relatively equal celebrity level. Flava Flav pulls women that typically your "hottest" non-celebrity guys pull. You have a lot of women with guys who look like Steadman. Get my drift?

So did it ever occur to you that the same way you'd probably desired a Halle or Naomi to, say a lil' kim or some other busted chick, is the same way those girls you lusted after in college would rather be with a Denzel or Gary Dourdan than be with you?!

Actually, it would be more of a case of how they would rather be with Flava Flav than with me. But again, where did you get the idea that I chased after girls who didn't want to be with me? Apparently you confuse me with your begging self.

It amazes me when unattractive males think they 'deserve' a drop dead gorgeous female as some male birthright, yet call women 'shallow' when they do the same. Only ugly rich men wishfully believe that women are only interested in a man's financial/professional status. The ugly broke one's dream that some hot princess would rescue them from loserville. Know your limits Jason. Don't be going after Gabby Union's when you are looking like Gary Oldman.

What amazes me is when busted chicks, like yourself, blame the lack of interest in them on the fact they they are black, as opposed to the fact that their race has nothing to do with their bustedness.

Anonymous said...

Here is a very good article related to the absence of black fathers in the home and Obama's speech about it. Good reading:

http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/06/the_problem_with_obamas_father.html

Anonymous said...

I fear someone else has become an apologist for BM. I guess it will just never end.

Sandra77 said...

Some men have such a sense of entitlement when it comes to women - LOL! Women learn pretty early to wise up where their looks are concerned, but men want to carry to the grave the belief that their looks/age/financial status don't matter. They are adamant about retaining theor God-given right to be materialistic where women are concerned (looks), but reject categorically any right of women to be similarly materialistic when it comes to men! It's not pretty that human beings can be so materialistic, but there it is. But if you accept materialism for your own gender since "it's only natural", then you can't completely decry it in the other gender (sauce for the goose).

Anonymous said...

Anon @ 1:23, Good one and TRUE! LOL!

Anonymous said...

Jason, you are talking a lot of nonsense. Why are you here?

Anonymous said...

pvwoman, yes, I heard that that ugly creep beat poor Halle up. So nice to se BW here forget that and praise him.

Anonymous said...

hbc, you tell 'em girl!

Anonymous said...

anon@ 12:57 AM: So stay with your precious WW then and don't bother us!

Anonymous said...

anon@ 12:57 AM, that is BS!

Anonymous said...

anon @10:22 AM, I think I hear your White baby mama calling you.

Anonymous said...

You know it is a crock of sh*** hbc, but we BW have so many enimeis, even on sites that are supposed to be "supporting" us.

Anonymous said...

aimee, Snipes is so beneath you! He does not deserve to lick the ground under your boots! I really wish you had never mentioned his sorry a**! Those egomaniac BM will just use it to make themselves the center of attention, AS USUAL!

Anonymous said...

knockoutchick, you are SO correct girl! BM would hound a sista who did to them what Snipes did to us right out of showbiz.

Sistas need to leave BM behind, they DON'T care about us at all!

Anonymous said...

"You win Jason"?

THIS attitude is why BM keep doing whatever they please to hurt BM, NOBODY will stand up to them!

Anonymous said...

This Jason is BM disrespect & hatred for BW personified.

Anonymous said...

This jalilmaster is a HATER of BW!

Anonymous said...

Kay, I am sorry to say that I think you are wasting your time asking for support here for that great book. It appears to me that this site is full of people who instead of helping BW are more interested in praising Wesley Snipes and letting him off the hook for his slander of BW, talking about how "innocent" BM are and how they NEVER EVER hurt BW, how they are so much better and "less sexist" than WM, letting a BM named Jason come in here and insult and belittle BW with impunity, and how a bunch of dumb, ugly BM actors who DON'T give a damn about BW are better looking than Gary Oldman.

I am very disappointed to say the least. Hurt too.

Anonymous said...

and how a bunch of dumb, ugly BM actors who DON'T give a damn about BW are better looking than Gary Oldman.

I think that 3 of the 5 bm mentioned are currently married to black women and one was married to a black woman in the past. One has never been married if I am not mistaken, yet has dated several black women. Tell me, why is Denzel dumb and ugly and doesn't care about black women? The man refused to do a love scene with a white actess out of respect for black women and has a long stable marriage to one. But I know why you think this way. It is because he is black and 100% of the black men are ugly to you because you are racist.

Anonymous said...

anon, I don't give a damn what you say. BM are nothing but abusers of BW and I hate them. If you don't like me to have that opinion I don't care!

"Racist"? I am a BLACK WOMAN you fool!

Anonymous said...

"Racist"? I am a BLACK WOMAN you fool!

Yes. A BLACK WOMAN who hates BLACK MEN = racist, you fool!

Anonymous said...

anon, YES I hate them. SO WHAT? Thry hate us, and I don't see nobody crying over it!


The racist one is YOU, you are racist against Black women!

Anonymous said...

You said that Jalilmaster hates black women. I'm quite sure that Jalilmaster is a black woman. This shows how stupid you are. You think the everyone hates black women. Everyone may hate YOU, but very few people hate black women.

JaliliMaster said...

Anonymous said...
"This Jason is BM disrespect & hatred for BW personified."

Then your next post was:
"This jalilmaster is a HATER of BW!"

I will simply post the following reply from another anonymous:
" Anonymous said...
You said that Jalilmaster hates black women. I'm quite sure that Jalilmaster is a black woman. This shows how stupid you are."

I am a black woman. You seem to have a problem with me based solely on the fact that I called another bf poster out on what I perceived to be double standards. This is despite the fact that I gave Jason a piece of my mind, as I did on other posts.
________________________


Anonymous said...
"and how a bunch of dumb, ugly BM actors who DON'T give a damn about BW are better looking than Gary Oldman."

Irrespective of who those men I mentioned are partnered with, each and every one of them IS a billion times better looking than Gary Oldman, in every respect(except, ofcourse, Flava Flav). In addition, I'll note the following post:
"I think that 3 of the 5 bm mentioned are currently married to black women and one was married to a black woman in the past. One has never been married if I am not mistaken, yet has dated several black women. Tell me, why is Denzel dumb and ugly and doesn't care about black women? The man refused to do a love scene with a white actess out of respect for black women and has a long stable marriage to one."
_______________________

Anonymous said...
"anon, I don't give a damn what you say. BM are nothing but abusers of BW and I hate them. If you don't like me to have that opinion I don't care!"

Anonymous said...
"anon, YES I hate them. SO WHAT?"

But did you not just complain about some other people being haters of bw? Now you admit that you hate black men. You amuse me.
_______________________

Anonymous said...
'"Racist"? I am a BLACK WOMAN you fool!'

Um, so am I, yet you accused me of being a black woman hater!
_________________________

Anonymous said...
"I am very disappointed to say the least. Hurt too."

I assume that is where all your misdirected anger is coming from. Get help!
_________________________

Now, to another anonymous poster, you posted the following:

Anonymous said...
"Everyone may hate YOU, but very few people hate black women."

I disagree with you that 'very few' people hate black women. How then do you explain the constant stream of attacks to bw from both white society and bm?!

JaliliMaster said...

Jason, I will not address an of the other things you wrote, excpet to say that I am most definitely neither 'fat' nor 'unattractive'. Neither do I hate black men. I am a Nigerian, I live in the UK, so I have no reason whatsoever to 'hate' african-american men. It's just that for all the nonsense that I've seen alot of african-american women do and say, they deserve soooo much more than the hatred I've seen alot of black american men give them.

The fact is that if most af-american women treated af-american men the way most af-american men treat af-american women, alot of you men will not survive. I don't have to be an af-american woman to know that they suffer alot of indignities at the hands of their own men!

Jason said...

I am a Nigerian, I live in the UK, so I have no reason whatsoever to 'hate' african-american men.

You are also an outsider who, despite not knowing jack about the African American community, pretends to be expert enough on it to criticize. I could sit up here and run a gauntlet of negatives about the Nigerian community, but its really not my place nor concern. I will say that you would gladly live in the UK as opposed to Nigeria (so the white man can care for you).

It's just that for all the nonsense that I've seen alot of african-american women do and say, they deserve soooo much more than the hatred I've seen alot of black american men give them.

Do you have super vision to see what goes on thousands of miles away accross seas? Or does the few rap videos you see on MTV or BET or the occasional thug movie define black America in your mind? You and folks like you (such as this Halima Anderson person) amaze me. Foreigners who can't seem to mind their own. You should be commenting on the violence toward women in Nigeria as well as the curruption, AIDS, etc. there.

The fact is that if most af-american women treated af-american men the way most af-american men treat af-american women, alot of you men will not survive.

Where do you get this nonsense? What info do you get that enlightens you on what MOST black American men do? This site? Please.

A lot of us men would not survive? What does this mean? Please explain because so far it makes no sense.

Anonymous said...

Where do you get this nonsense?

They don't get from anywhere. They just make this stuff up. I've read posters on blogs like this state that black women are being slaughtered by black men in America. It's laughable and ridiculous at the same time.

There is no "constant stream of attacks to bw from both white society and bm?!". I would like for someone to point out these stream of attacks. All you will get are individual cases that are far from representing most of any group.

jazine said...

Aimee, please shut down the ability to comment on this particular blog topic. As you can see, it can has gone to mush and has been sabotaged. I hate to admit it, but the trolls won this round.

A damn shame, it was a brilliant topic and great discussions came out of it.

mekare said...

I agree. The bm who have "commented" have been nothing but argumentative and have done nothing but lie and soiled the post.

mekare said...

Nevermind...the conversation can be redirected back to the original topic with a little effort

arthur said...

.. it was a brilliant topic and great discussions came out of it..

Cosign that. No surprise to see the trolls coming out of the woodwork, trying to break it up. But they were too late; all the important things had already been said.

Sandra77 said...

Aimee, don't shut down your thread just because of a few idiots. They have no more power than we give them, therefore for me, they are less than zero. Again, brilliant thread with some very informative responses from some intelligent readers.

JaliliMaster said...

Jason said...
"You are also an outsider who, despite not knowing jack about the African American community, pretends to be expert enough on it to criticize. I could sit up here and run a gauntlet of negatives about the Nigerian community, but its really not my place nor concern. I will say that you would gladly live in the UK as opposed to Nigeria (so the white man can care for you)."

If you want to insult Nigeria, by all means, go ahead. Such things don't bother me one iota. And the fact that I said I'm Nigerian does not mean I am ONLY Nigerian, I just identify with Nigeria. My granddad was scottish(british), so quit that go to your homeland line, or, why not use it on yourself. If me having a grandfather who was british is not reason enough to claim that ancestry, you have no place calling yourself an American. Afterall, I'm sure your ancestors were from the African continent, so why are you letting 'the white man' take care of you?!
_______________________________

"Do you have super vision to see what goes on thousands of miles away accross seas? Or does the few rap videos you see on MTV or BET or the occasional thug movie define black America in your mind? You and folks like you (such as this Halima Anderson person) amaze me. Foreigners who can't seem to mind their own. You should be commenting on the violence toward women in Nigeria as well as the curruption, AIDS, etc. there."

Um, there is no AIDS epidemic in Nigeria so quit that bull. Do I have to be Zimbabwean to feel for the Zimbabweans that are sufferring? Or do I have to be Sudanese, Somali, North Korean etc, to know that they are being dehumanized. Similarly, I do not for even one second, buy your ludicrous argument that since I'm not African-american, I should shut up about any of the injustices that african-american women face. I will not. Whn I see injustice, I point it out. Irrespective of who the victim is. The fact is that if things like sex crime laws, violence, crimes aginst women etc, were left to bm, bw would be in trouble! Additionally, most of the negative images of bw in the media today are propagated by bm. Even in the uk, even though most of it is coming from america.
________________________

"Where do you get this nonsense? What info do you get that enlightens you on what MOST black American men do? This site? Please.

A lot of us men would not survive? What does this mean? Please explain because so far it makes no sense."

Ok, where do I start. It is not stereotype that most black men do not take care of their children but abandon them, leaving all the burden on the shoulders of bw. It is a fact. If it was the other way round, do you honestly see bm being able to cope? Look at all the headache most bm give bw in irr, even though these men are screwing non-bw themselves. Turn it around. Had it been the majority of irr with blacks(like 73% I think) involved a bw instead of a bm, and there was a shortage of decent bw, who had poor job/school prospects, committing crime at ridiculous levels, blaming bm for all that goes wrong in their lives while worshipping wm, yet still considered themselves far above the average bm who achieved more than they did, while also facing more oppression than they do, imagine what bm would be doing? Yet, that is exactly what the situation is with bw. And for some silly reason, I still see so many of these abused bw giving excuse after excuse for why most bm are this way.
______________________________

Jason said...

Ok, where do I start. It is not stereotype that most black men do not take care of their children but abandon them, leaving all the burden on the shoulders of bw. It is a fact.

That's a blatent untruth and an example of how you do not know what you are talking about. Your statement is based on a perception that is based on ignorance. Now lets cite research:

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1816485,00.html

Research by Boston College social psychologist Rebekah Levine Coley found that black fathers not living at home are more likely to keep in contact with their children than fathers of any other ethnic or racial group. Coley offers a more complex view of the causes of absenteeism among black fathers: the failure to live up to expectations to provide for their families--owing to stunted economic and educational opportunities--drives poor black men into despair and away from their families. Such findings undermine the arguments about black fathers' inherent pathology or moral lassitude. These men need jobs, not jabs.

http://gess.wordpress.com/2008/06/20/right-wing-media-tells-obama-lay-off-black-fathers/

“A month before Obama made this stereotypical and plainly false assertion, Boston University professor Rebekah Levine Coley, in a comprehensive study on the black family, found that black fathers who aren’t in the home are much more likely to sustain regular contact with their children than absentee white fathers, or for that matter, fathers of any other ethnic group. The study is not an obscure study buried in the thick pages of a musty academic journal. It was widely cited in a feature article on black fathers in the May 19, 2008 issue of Newsweek. There was no excuse then to spout this myth. The facts are totally contrary to Obama’s knock.”

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/obama-lay-off-black-fathers/

But Obama clearly is fixated on the ever-popular notion of the absentee black father. And that fixation for whatever reason is fed by a mix of truth, half truths and outright distortion.

Obama commits the cardinal error that every critic from the legions of sociologists, family experts, politicians and morals crusader Bill Cosby who have hectored black men for being father derelict have made. He omits the words “some,” “those,” or “the offenders” before black fathers [ignorant folks place the word "most" in there as you did]. Instead, he makes, or at least gives the impression, that all, or MOST, black men aren’t in the home, and are irresponsible. That being the case ipso facto they are the cause for the much fingered crime-drugs-violence-gross underachievement syndrome that young black males are supposedly eternally locked into.

Obama presents absolutely no evidence to back up this devastating indictment. The worst case estimate is that slightly less than half of black children live in fatherless homes. But that’s only a paper figure. When income, education, individual background, and middle-class status are factored in the gap between black and white children who live in intact, two-parent households is much narrower.

This points to the single greatest reason for the higher number of black children who live in one-parent households. That reason is poverty. A 2007 study noted that a black father’s ability to financially contribute the major support in the home is the major determinant of whether he remains in the home. That’s no surprise considering that despite changing gender values and emphasis society still dumps the expectation and burden on men to be the principal breadwinner and financial provider. Put bluntly, men and the notion of manhood are still mainly defined by their ability to bring home the bacon. A man who falls short of that standard is considered a failure and loser.


So please have your facts together before you make assertions.

Jason said...

Um, there is no AIDS epidemic in Nigeria so quit that bull.

But the rate in Nigeria is at least 3 times that of black America.

Also, I don't label myself by another country's nationality. I am American who is racially/ethnically black. My black ancestors did not immigrate here, they were forced and I can trace my black ancestry here further back than the average white person can trace their white ancestry.

You referred to yourself as "Nigerian", not as a black Brit and I simply don't think that you really care about us "kattas" as you call us. You just want an excuse to criticize.

Jason said...

If it was the other way round, do you honestly see bm being able to cope? Look at all the headache most bm give bw in irr, even though these men are screwing non-bw themselves.

This makes no sense. If black women begin abandoning children, you would have more black single fathers and more kids in foster care. How will black men not survive. It would be the children who would feel the trauma. Studies have shown that single fathers do a better job than single mothers.

And black women give black men in IRR more problems than the reverse.

mekare said...

Jason,

Just leave.

Anonymous said...

Had it been the majority of irr with blacks(like 73% I think) involved a bw instead of a bm,

There would still be 90% of bw with black men (as 90% of bm are with black women).

and there was a shortage of decent bw,

Which is the current case.

http://www.assatashakur.org/forum/afrikan-reflections/13064-successful-black-men-shortage-good-black-women.html

who had poor job/school prospects

Back in days when the overwhelming majority of black households were two parented, most black women didn't have jobs and had little education. A woman's job and school prospects are not as desirable to men as a man's job and school prospects are to women. Also, a woman's job and education don't make up for an ugle disposition and a negative condescending attitude.

committing crime at ridiculous levels

Black women are half the women's prison population, so relatively speaking, this is happening.

blaming bm for all that goes wrong in their lives while worshipping wm,

Sounds like the posters on this site. Sorry, but Black men are blamed for the ills of black women far more than the reverse. That is why you have blogs like these in double figures.

yet still considered themselves far above the average bm who achieved more than they did, while also facing more oppression than they do, imagine what bm would be doing?

Sorry. Black men have faced more oppression than black women.

http://www.byroncrawford.com/2007/05/black_men_are_m.html

HBC said...

He really needs to deal with the fact that most bm are just plain flat out worthless, as far as, men go. He can use all the BS "stats" and articles he wants (believe me he is just making this sh*t up, don't buy the bs) to support his nonsense troll arguments. But, the fact remains that most of them absolutely have no value as men.

Why would other bm(Obama, Cosby, etc.) come out publicly to say these things they do, regarding the negative behavior of bm in this society, if they weren't true. How would this benefit these men at all?

There have been Town hall Meetings to address how trifling they are and let's not forget "The Million Man March”, organized by other bm, to encourage other bm to get their sh*t together(we see how well those efforts have worked out for most of them, lol).

Now, tell me what other race of men have ever needed this?

Black men like, Jason are truly pathetic and just plain delusional.

Jason said...

Now, tell me what other race of men have ever needed this?

Promise Keepers was formed for a similar purpose as the Million Man March. It is composed overwhelmingly of white men. A million men (mostly white) gathered at the National Mall for “Stand in the Gap”, and Promise Keepers has reached more than 5 and half million men (mostly white).

So does this show how jacked up white men are?

Jason said...

Oh, and please point out statistics I have made up so that I can point you to the sources.

HBC said...

"Promise Keepers"
________________________

Reaching.

Sandra77 said...

Jason, go start your own blog. I am not interested in what you have to say. You know that no-one is interested in the retread jabberwocky that you spout, so presumably that is why you haven't started your own blog and insist on inflicting yourself on sentient beings on other people's blogs. You are a waste of time, space and life. Find gainful employment.

Jason said...

Find gainful employment.

Covered that years ago. Now how about you doing the same?

Sandra77 said...

The amount of time you've spent posting here proves that you are not gainfully employed. Your posts account for more than half of the response space on this subject matter, yet you have managed to say nothing enlightening - sad. Again, go start your own blog, unless you fear that no-one would read it.

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